Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

....continued

: Contemplation said: ↑
Like Carl Sagan use to say that life always finds a way. It appeared that I ended up discovering that electronics always finds a way. It has become a common practice for technicians to only diagnose problems that are repairable, because it not worth the technicians time to work on something that cannot be repaired. Electronic devices have a natural tendency to alter themselves into a repairable state.

Would this mean that your television set is somehow conscious and alive? No, I think this type of experience could only be explained by the human race achieving an AI singularity that manipulated everything in time. All the tinkering technicians of the world ended up becoming successful and made money providing for themselves with limited knowledge of what they were actually working on. The universe is able to manifest itself in a way to change the properties of electronic devices to approach a future AI singularity.

And how does this all happen?
Surely not by pure chance, yet also not by divine command. Those are the 2 extremes that Hazen addressed in his lecture @ Carnegie Institute of Science. He proposes that "evolution" happens via a probabilistic mathematical function that depends on inherent potentials and things will eventually become expressed given sufficient time and
necessary resources. (David Bohm's "enfolded order" becoming expressed in "unfolded reality")

In this dynamic universe things happen stochastically but always via "mathematical physical permission". If something is not mathematically permitted it cannot happen.
This is why I use the term "a quasi-intelligent universe". It is a state of proto-consciousness.
IOW, consciousness is an evolved extension of a dynamic universe that follows generic mathematical "guiding principles" that begin at the very simplest cellular level.

The only room for this to occur in physics is via the Higgs Field. It is a low energy weak interaction and it would also be capable of exchanging information over very long distances. I believe the only thing that resembles consciousness in plants would be more like a nervous system. The Higgs Field is only creating the illusion of consciousness in them.

There it is! A nervous system is not a necessary requirement for intra-cellular and inter-cellular communication. Microtubules in the cellular cytoplasm do communicate all by themselves.

I will give an example. Say a goat walks up and down a mountain always using the same path. This begins to create a trail on the mountain. The plants being stepped on generate a frequency sending a single (signal ?)to the other nearby plants that they are being trampled on, and they cannot survive there. In response to that information they stop growing on the trail. This is simply a nervous system reaction based on an outside stimulus to its environment.

Botanists call it "problem solving". Bacteriologists call it "quorum sensing"

Now, say some religious fanatic sacrifices that goat to appease the gods to prevent something supernatural caused by something being altered in time. What happens to the goat trail? That goat trail may have helped thousands of people cross that distance to one day approach an AI singularity. The Higgs Field would then manifest itself around the plants to prevent them from growing on the trail. The plants are never aware of the trail, they are simply mimicking what they did in a previous version of events that took place.

But that is a false equivalence. Plants may not be aware of the trail, but they are certainly aware of the "packed soil" on the trail and avoid trying to grow there unless the trail reverts to its original composition by weather conditions "over time".

I agree with Tegmark that consciousness is an emergent result of certain information processing patterns. There is no law that says this pattern must be founded on biological substrate, but may well be possible by say a crystal substrate.
p.s. Microtubules are biochemical crystals.

 

[Write4U]

Microtubules as One-Dimensional Crystals: Is Crystal-Like Structure the Key to the Information Processing of Living Systems?
by Noemí Sanchez-Castro 1,2,Martha Alicia Palomino-Ovando 2,Pushpendra Singh 3,4,Satyajit Sahu 5,Miller Toledo-Solano 6,*ORCID,Jocelyn Faubert 1,J. Eduardo Lugo 1,*,Anirban Bandyopadhyay 3ORCID andKanad Ray 4

Abstract

Each tubulin protein molecule on the cylindrical surface of a microtubule, a fundamental element of the cytoskeleton, acts as a unit cell of a crystal sensor. Electromagnetic sensing enables the 2D surface of microtubule to act as a crystal or a collective electromagnetic signal processing system. We propose a model in which each tubulin dimer acts as the period of a one-dimensional crystal with effective electrical impedance related to its molecular structure.

Based on the mathematical crystal theory with one-dimensional translational symmetry, we simulated the electrical transport properties of the signal across the microtubule length and compared it to our single microtubule experimental results. The agreement between theory and experiment suggests that one of the most essential components of any Eukaryotic cell acts as a one-dimensional crystal.
Keywords: microtubule; tubulin; crystal; transmission network

more... https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4352/11/3/318

 

[Contemplation]

Microtubules as One-Dimensional Crystals: Is Crystal-Like Structure the Key to the Information Processing of Living Systems?
by Noemí Sanchez-Castro 1,2,Martha Alicia Palomino-Ovando 2,Pushpendra Singh 3,4,Satyajit Sahu 5,Miller Toledo-Solano 6,*ORCID,Jocelyn Faubert 1,J. Eduardo Lugo 1,*,Anirban Bandyopadhyay 3ORCID andKanad Ray 4

Abstract

more... https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4352/11/3/318

Did they find that the electrical impedance is changing or is it always constant? I have trouble interrupting the paper, since I never seriously studied biology. From my understanding of electronics and theoretical physic, changes in the impedance would have to be the mechanism responsible for consciousness. Changing the impedance alters the phase space of the electrical system. It was actually Bell, founder of Bell Labs, that adapted all electrical components to be used in electronic circuits to be constant. The reason is because it can create too much static and interference. You wouldn’t be able to get a steady voltage or frequency. Therefore, nothing produced with the technology developed by Bell Labs will ever truly become consciously aware.

The only way I could see this as being a conscious being is if the impedance of these crystals are adapting to the phase space of these crystals you mention.

 

[Contemplation]

Never mind, I found it. It states that the impedance only has one value. They are no more consciously aware than your toaster, which also only has one value for its impedance. In neurons, the impedance actually changes, if I remember correctly.

 

[Write4U]

Did they find that the electrical impedance is changing or is it always constant? I have trouble interrupting (interpreting) the paper, since I never seriously studied biology.

Never mind, I found it. It states that the impedance only has one value. They are no more consciously aware than your toaster, which also only has one value for its impedance. In neurons, the impedance actually changes, if I remember correctly.

The only way I could see this as being a conscious being is if the impedance of these crystals are adapting to the phase space of these crystals you mention.

The remarkable property of microtubules is that they can grow and shrink, thereby are variable in control impedance.

Investigation of the Electrical Properties of Microtubule Ensembles under Cell-Like Conditions
Aarat P. Kalra,1 Sahil D. Patel,2 Asadullah F. Bhuiyan,2 Jordane Preto,1 Kyle G. Scheuer,2 Usman Mohammed,3 John D. Lewis,4 Vahid Rezania,3 Karthik Shankar,2,* and Jack A. Tuszynski1,4

Abstract

Microtubules are hollow cylindrical polymers composed of the highly negatively-charged (~23e), high dipole moment (1750 D) protein α, β- tubulin. While the roles of microtubules in chromosomal segregation, macromolecular transport, and cell migration are relatively well-understood, studies on the electrical properties of microtubules have only recently gained strong interest.

Here, we show that while microtubules at physiological concentrations increase solution capacitance, free tubulin has no appreciable effect. Further, we observed a decrease in electrical resistance of solution, with charge transport peaking between 20–60 Hz in the presence of microtubules, consistent with recent findings that microtubules exhibit electric oscillations at such low frequencies.

We were able to quantify the capacitance and resistance of the microtubules (MT) network at physiological tubulin concentrations to be 1.27 × 10−5 F and 9.74 × 104 Ω. Our results show that in addition to macromolecular transport, microtubules also act as charge storage devices through counterionic condensation across a broad frequency spectrum.

We conclude with a hypothesis of an electrically tunable cytoskeleton where the dielectric properties of tubulin are polymerisation-state dependent.
Keywords: microtubules, bioelectricity, bionanowires, neuronal charge storage, impedance spectroscopy, cytoskeleton

more.... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7075204/

Microtubules as Sub-Cellular Memristors

Abstract

Memristors represent the fourth electrical circuit element complementing resistors, capacitors and inductors. Hallmarks of memristive behavior include pinched and frequency-dependent I–V hysteresis loops and most importantly a functional dependence of the magnetic flux passing through an ideal memristor on its electrical charge.

Microtubules (MTs), cylindrical protein polymers composed of tubulin dimers are key components of the cytoskeleton. They have been shown to increase solution’s ionic conductance and re-orient in the presence of electric fields. It has been hypothesized that MTs also possess intrinsic capacitive and inductive properties, leading to transistor-like behavior.

Here, we show a theoretical basis and experimental support for the assertion that MTs under specific circumstances behave consistently with the definition of a memristor. Their biophysical properties lead to pinched hysteretic current–voltage dependence as well a classic dependence of magnetic flux on electric charge. Based on the information about the structure of MTs we provide an estimate of their memristance. We discuss its significance for biology, especially neuroscience, and potential for nanotechnology applications.
Subject terms: Bionanoelectronics, Supramolecular assembly

more...... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7005844/[/QUOTE]

 

[Contemplation]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space#

The problem is that consciousness still hasn’t been proven to exist in a phase space, but I believe it is the best theoretical model. There is a complete re-derivation of quantum mechanics in a phase space which is said to be equally valid as the standard model, but it can also include descriptions like quantum tunneling. This makes more intuitive sense, since it is simply recognizing that the entire state of the system is responsible for what is measured at each point.

I don’t believe that we actually live in a Hilbert Space from which it is derived, but it may actually be closer to an 8 dimensional universe that has two higher open dimensions and one closed spatial dimension and a time/charge reversed dimension for hand wavy reasons that would take too long to describe.

Basically, brain patterns where we would normally expect to find consciousness have erratic changing frequencies. They can take on different patterns by thinking about different things. They can appear in similar locations in the brain where the “wiring” is the same. This could only be accomplished by changing the impedance of the circuit.

One example is what happens when someone smokes marijuana. The THC molecules actually change the connection between neurons by making it easier for them to send electrical signals. The person experiences an altered state of consciousness. It actually makes it possible for the person to reach a higher state of consciousness where they can use more of their brain at one time.

This lowers the resistance of the circuit, changing the impedance, where impedance is actually the measurement of how waves are reflected. The thing is that they don’t reflect like normal waves and that reflection changes the state of the particles all throughout their history and future. This sounds really woo, like no one would ever figure out how to achieve a mathematical description of this, but I was really dumbfounded by this actually already being discovered. That is a phase space.

 

[Write4U]

Basically, brain patterns where we would normally expect to find consciousness have erratic changing frequencies. They can take on different patterns by thinking about different things. They can appear in similar locations in the brain where the “wiring” is the same. This could only be accomplished by changing the impedance of the circuit.

We're now at the limit of my knowledge, but according to IIT, the microtubule network creates entangled data that solves the differential problems (?).
I'm glad you are contributing stuff I was never aware of. I love the research!

Co-Entangled Actin-Microtubule Composites Exhibit Tunable Stiffness and Power-Law Stress Relaxation
Shea N. Ricketts,1 Jennifer L. Ross,2 and Rae M. Robertson-Anderson1,∗

Abstract

We use optical tweezers microrheology and fluorescence microscopy to characterize the nonlinear mesoscale mechanics and mobility of in vitro co-entangled actin-microtubule composites. We create a suite of randomly oriented, well-mixed networks of actin and microtubules by co-polymerizing varying ratios of actin and tubulin in situ.

To perturb each composite far from equilibrium, we use optical tweezers to displace an embedded microsphere a distance greater than the lengths of the filaments at a speed much faster than their intrinsic relaxation rates. We simultaneously measure the force the filaments exert on the bead and the subsequent force relaxation.

We find that the presence of a large fraction of microtubules (>0.7) is needed to substantially increase the measured force, which is accompanied by large heterogeneities in force response. Actin minimizes these heterogeneities by reducing the mesh size of the composites and supporting microtubules against buckling.

Composites also undergo a sharp transition from strain softening to stiffening when the fraction of microtubules (ϕT) exceeds 0.5, which we show arises from faster poroelastic relaxation and suppressed actin bending fluctuations. The force after bead displacement relaxes via power-law decay after an initial period of minimal relaxation. The short-time relaxation profiles (t < 0.06 s) arise from poroelastic and bending contributions, whereas the long-time power-law relaxation is indicative of filaments reptating out of deformed entanglement constraints. The scaling exponents for the long-time relaxation exhibit a nonmonotonic dependence on ϕT, reaching a maximum for equimolar composites (ϕT = 0.5), suggesting that reptation is fastest in ϕT = 0.5 composites.

Corresponding mobility measurements of steady-state actin and microtubules show that both filaments are indeed the most mobile in ϕT = 0.5 composites. This nonmonotonic dependence of mobility on ϕT demonstrates the important interplay between mesh size and filament rigidity in polymer networks and highlights the surprising emergent properties that can arise in composites.

more.... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6139891/

 

[exchemist]

We're now at the limit of my knowledge, but according to IIT, the microtubule network creates entangled data that solves the differential problems (?).
I'm glad you are contributing stuff I was never aware of. I love the research!

Co-Entangled Actin-Microtubule Composites Exhibit Tunable Stiffness and Power-Law Stress Relaxation
Shea N. Ricketts,1 Jennifer L. Ross,2 and Rae M. Robertson-Anderson1,∗

Abstract

more.... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6139891/

This paper has nothing to do with data, let alone "entangled data", whatever that might mean.

It is about the physical entanglement of microtubles and what that does to the mechanical stiffness of structures in cell cytoplasm.

 

[Write4U]

This paper has nothing to do with data, let alone "entangled data", whatever that might mean.

It is about the physical entanglement of microtubles and what that does to the mechanical stiffness of structures in cell cytoplasm.

And maybe regulate physical composites for resistance and impedance?

I know a potentiometer is a physical object, yet it does some really interesting things with electricity, no?

I guess you missed this:
Investigation of the Electrical Properties of Microtubule Ensembles under Cell-Like Conditions

Broaden your scope.

 

[Contemplation]

We're now at the limit of my knowledge, but according to IIT, the microtubule network creates entangled data that solves the differential problems (?).
I'm glad you are contributing stuff I was never aware of. I love the research!

Normally, when I have learned about this kind of stuff they always mention a possible crackpot scientist that figures that they solved the mechanism behind consciousness as being similar to that. I think it deserves some kind of credence.

The closest thing it would resemble is putting a inductor in line with a source voltage going to ground. That is when you would measure the most impedance. An inductor is simply a wound coil. The current goes around the coil and creates a magnetic field which physicist describe as the electromagnetic force created by a force carrying photon.

What happens is the coil gains more resistance to current if there is alternating current applied to it. It makes it more difficult for the electrons to flow through the wire. Direct current will flow straight through it as though it has no resistance. The alternating current experiences resistance from it changing directions.

This resistance reflects the electromagnetic waves of the electron, just like how you would expect a photon to be reflected by a mirror. I know this sounds really fantastic and all, since somehow electrons can no longer be considered electromagnetic waves, but that is how I was taught it. It assumes some wave particle duality of the electrons.

This then creates an interference with its previous version of itself. This creates random spikes in the voltage levels, and that is why they say you should never design a circuit that way. The goal of electronics is to obtain predictable values of voltages that can undergo a process that creates a desirable output based on different inputs of voltages.

All components in electronics actually possess some impedance. It is rarely considered or used, from Bell standardizing how much impedance they all have. It prevents unpredictable voltages from being created. Apparently, they were not capable of creating circuits within a phase space or didn’t care too. It simplifies electrical theory.

 

[Write4U]

An inductor is simply a wound coil. The current goes around the coil and creates a magnetic field which physicist describe as the electromagnetic force created by a force carrying photon.

It seems to me that the configuration and dynamic potentials of microtubules are perfectly suited for electrical control at very low voltages as found in the brain.
It is simply a wound coil but it has ability to grow or shrink, thereby changing its electrical properties.

Microtubule Electrical Oscillations and Hippocampal Function
....

MTs are unique components of the cytoskeleton that form a wide variety of intracellular superstructures1. Highly polarized cells such as neurons present two distinct cellular domains, namely the axon and multiple shorter dendrites that either transmit or receive electrical signals, respectively.

In both axons and dendrites, MTs form dense parallel arrays known as bundles, which are required for neuronal growth and maintenance of neurites2. MTs are formed of highly charged α-β tubulin heterodimeric units that behave as biological transistors supporting, amplifying and axially propagating electrical signals3. Within the cytoplasm MT-generated variable currents may contribute to the presence and modulation of large intracellular electric fields, which in turn, will help control cell function.

more.... https://www.jneurology.com/articles...l-oscillations-and-hippocampal-function.html#

Just to get you up to date on ORCH OR. (Orchestrated Objective Reduction)

Orchestrated reduction of quantum coherence in brain microtubules: A model for consciousness
Stuart Hameroff a, Roger Penrose b
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0378475496804769

 

[exchemist]

And maybe regulate physical composites for resistance and impedance?

I know a potentiometer is a physical object, yet it does some really interesting things with electricity, no?

I guess you missed this:
Investigation of the Electrical Properties of Microtubule Ensembles under Cell-Like Conditions

Broaden your scope.

You've just made that up. There is zero in the paper about data, or even about electrical properties.

And no, a potentiometer does not do really interesting things with electricity. It's just a variable resistor.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Write4U]

It's just a variable resistor.

And what does resistance do to electricity?

I assembled an amplifier once and had to solder many resistors, fixed and variable, else I would have had no control over the input and output of the audible sound.
"Just" a variable resistor is not "just" a variable resistor. It is a critical part of an amplifier. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

 

[Contemplation]

It seems to me that the configuration and dynamic potentials of microtubules are perfectly suited for electrical control at very low voltages as found in the brain.
It is simply a wound coil but it has ability to grow or shrink, thereby changing its electrical properties.

Microtubule Electrical Oscillations and Hippocampal Function
....

more.... https://www.jneurology.com/articles...l-oscillations-and-hippocampal-function.html#

That just makes it sound more like a step up or step down circuit. If you have two inductors close together they can transfer voltage to another independent circuit. A larger inductor will transfer more voltage to a smaller inductor. A smaller inductor will transfer less voltage to a larger inductor. The amount of transfer of voltage will remain constant if they are both the same size.

This is actually nothing like how a radio works to send signals that would allow for communication. That is the big mistake. A change in frequency can simply be created by putting one wire next to another like an antenna rod. That literally is all it takes to transmit signals. One wire is creating a change in voltage that is transmitted to another wire.

The only thing that makes it special is that the antenna are not in line to ground with a capacitor. Every other circuit in an electronic device is in line with ground with a capacitor, so the other circuits are not influenced by any transmission.

It actually makes it sound a lot less about transmitting information but rather used for transmitting energy. That could be important for something using photosynthesis to live on…

 

[Write4U]

This then creates an interference with its previous version of itself. This creates random spikes in the voltage levels, and that is why they say you should never design a circuit that way. The goal of electronics is to obtain predictable values of voltages that can undergo a process that creates a desirable output based on different inputs of voltages.

Of course, in nature we are not talking about artificially designed patterns, but natural selection over time of patterns that work efficiently. Nature has all the time in the world to test different pattern configurations.

It actually makes it sound a lot less about transmitting information but rather used for transmitting energy. That could be important for something using photosynthesis to live on…

Ah, yes in plants.
But animals have additional sensory processes from sight and magnetic and gravitational navigation.

 

[Contemplation]

And what does resistance do to electricity?

I assembled an amplifier once and had to solder many resistors, fixed and variable, else I would have had no control over the input and output of the audible sound.
"Just" a variable resistor is not "just" a variable resistor. It is a critical part of an amplifier. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

E = I R

The voltage level (E) is based on the amount of current (I) times the resistance (R).

Resistance is really just a property of matter in how well it can conduct electricity. Electricity is conducted by the exchange of electrons around the atom. Elements that are more conductive can more easily exchanged electrons. An elements resistance is based on how well the element can exchange electrons with other atoms of that element. This is mostly dependent on the orbital valance shells of the atom. Metals can easily exchange electrons, so they are the best conductors. That is why metals are used to conduct electricity in wires.

The amount of current is the measure of the rate the atoms exchange electrons. The voltage is the measure of the amount of potential energy carried by the electrons from their differences in electrical charge. A frequency is the change in this potential energy.

From what I have heard from being taught about this is that it is not really known for certain if each individual atom always takes part in the exchange of electrons. It has been suggested that materials like crystals and metals that form geometric patterns are better conductors, because they actually allow the electrons to skip this process of changing between orbitals of atoms. I don’t know if this theory was ever followed up on, so that may be different now.

 

[Contemplation]

https://www.circuits-diy.com/how-to-make-simple-amplifier-circuit-without-ic/

This is a basic amplifier circuit commonly known in the negative universe where time flows in the positive direction.

A frequency is created changing the potential difference (voltage) of a wire. That wire goes into a transistor. A transistor is a three pronged component that has a gap in the middle to prevent electron flow. When the input frequency becomes high, it makes the transistor allow flow of electrons between the other two prongs. This changes the vertical line to become a complete circuit, where current can flow between a charge and ground.

The other voltage that is applied to the circuit then creates the same frequency as the input. It is at a higher voltage than the input voltage, so that signal is then amplified. When the input frequency is low, the circuit is open. It doesn’t pass current at that time. It simply just creates this effect where a frequency is copied with a different voltage.

 

[Contemplation]

A variable resistor would simply change the potential difference or voltage’s to ground. A higher resistance increases the potential difference, while a lower resistance reduces the potential difference by allowing current flow. If you wanted to use a variable resistor to change the volume then you would want it to be in line with the outer prongs of the transistor and the speaker. This would change the voltage level of the output.

Back to topic, crystals are actually also used as frequency generators for clocks. They have an inherent frequency that allows them to change the voltage level to create a frequency for making electronic clocks. It is unknown why exactly they do this, but I assume it is due to a resonance frequency created by the impedance of a phase space. By combining that with a coil could generate a large range of frequencies. If that is responsible for their consciousness, then it would actually be more like a quasi probability distribution.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiprobability_distribution

 

[Contemplation]

The word on the street is that the major problem with attempting to prove consciousness exists in this form is being able to express the potential difference in energy or voltage in terms of a Fock State.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fock_state

As you can see the Fock State is described to not be able to be expressed as energy in general. I believe the problem is that it doesn’t actually obey the rules of conservation of energy. The total energy on a line can change if it has a high impedance.

The total amount of energy can change momentarily similar to what occurs during quantum tunneling. The voltage or potential energy can become deconstructive to itself and later emerge at another location later on once the deconstructive interference dissipates. Then the scientific progress on this enters a completely Focked State.

 

[Write4U]

You are bringing some very interesting information to the table. I hope someone more qualified than me can discuss this perspective on possible microtubule involvement with you.