Notes, particular and general
Scott3x said:
After he wrote this post, I've been running under the assumption (perhaps mistaken) that his true goal is to get a discussion going about what really constitutes moral and immoral behaviour in regards to sexuality.
Okay, but
why? And why reach so far for an example? Ten years ago, there was the case of an immigrant who was taking a photography course. He took a nude photograph of his daughter on a glass table, allegedly at her prompting. Were she an adult, we would consider the image artistic, but she was a minor, so it was regarded as pornographic. To the child, according to the defense, there was nothing sexual about it. To the prosecution, the mere fact of her nudity made it sexual. The daughter was of single-digit age.
That case definitely walks the line. When my brother and I were little, we used to play a streaking game before bathtime. We thought it was hilarious: we would run around the house naked and our dad would try to smack us with a rolled-up newspaper. Yeah, seriously. And I'm
damn sure there are polaroids of this. I defy anyone to raid my mother's house, find those old pictures, and charge her with possession of child pornography. It would be absolutely ridiculous. And yet it's leagues closer to the line than the breastfeeding argument.
What strikes me as curious in this discussion is that the example occurs so far beyond the territory of the sexual.
I agree with that point completely. I also think it doesn't just apply to breastfeeding...
I would agree that it doesn't just apply to breastfeeding. I would ask people to consider the extent to which people are taught to be ashamed of their bodies. Mandating an association between shame and fundamental existence has long been a task for religion. It should not be law.
I agree- such as female jeans wherein a woman's buns area is white.
The thing with women's jeans goes much, much farther than that. And it's not the white or bleached-out part of the jeans, but the patterns of dark color. We can go into the detail if needed, but to the one, it should suffice to say that there is a specialized subset of internet pornography obsessed with that sort of thing, and to the other we might recognize that it points back to a fundamental question of why.
The seed for me is nothing less then the morality of different sexual activities. I personally believe there really is something to defining breastfeeding as a sexual activity- I think that no one would deny that sucking on a woman's breasts if they were -not- lactating would be construed as sexual.
There
is an argument to be had that allowing a child to suckle when not lactating is not sexual, but it also suggests, in Freudian terms, an oral-stage fixation that becomes more and more problematic with each manifestation. That is, one might argue that it isn't sexual, but the argument that it isn't harmful to the child is considerably more difficult.
• • •
Returning to
post #99, the question, as I've noted, is
why.
We might also consider a couple of other posts. Bells, at
#108 inquires after Ancientregime's reference to child grooming, and our topic poster's response, at
#127 is particularly sharp:
Ancientregime said:
I didn't say that. Don't try to paint a picture of me saying that without be intellectually remanded. You are wrong. You are not reasoning.
I didn't create the definitions the wacko's created. Don't try and stick it on me. Don't blame the messanger.
They are the ones who have defined normal behavior as suspisious behavior of pedophiles, not me.
Indeed, the whole post goes on like that. Ancientregime will make a
public note. He is clever, Bells is not.
Look, we
get it. It's not
really Ancientregime who says all this. He's just "the messenger". But
why? Why is this
so important? Why is he
so unyielding?
For instance,
James R has addressed the problem with the oxytocin argument, yet it took over a week
and a
reminder before, 120 posts later, Ancientregime
dismisses it as an unclever distortion.
The problem with that dismissal is that it relies on an outlook in which virtually everything is sexual. And while that argument has certain philosophical merit—e.g., reproduction is the first calling of life—it encounters certain problems in practical application, namely that such a uniform assignation renders human function dysfunctional.
Thus, to borrow a phrase,
welcome to the world of Wikipedia:
Oxytocin (IPA: /ˌɔk.sɪ.ˈtoʊ.sɪn/) (Greek, "quick birth") is a mammalian hormone that also acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain.
It is best known for its roles in female reproduction: it is released in large amounts after distension of the cervix and vagina during labor, and after stimulation of the nipples, facilitating birth and breastfeeding, respectively. Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including social recognition, bonding, anxiety, trust, and maternal behaviors. ("Oxytocin")
• • •
The Oxytocin receptor (OXTR) functions as an inducer of uterine contractions and milk ejection. Oxytocin receptors are expressed by the myoepithelial cells of the mammary gland, and in both the myometrium and endometrium of the uterus at the end of pregnancy. In some mammals, oxytocin receptors are also found in the kidney and heart ....
.... The oxytocin receptor is also widespread throughout the central nervous system and modulates a variety of behaviors. These include responses to stress and anxiety, social memory and recognition, sexual and aggressive behaviors, bonding (affiliation) and maternal behavior. ("Oxytocin receptor")
According to the purported logic of the breastfeeding/incest argument pertaining to oxytocin,
natural childbirth should be banned, as it involves a vagina, oxytocin, and a
baby. (My God! It's just a
baby! Won't someone
please think of the babies!)
Aggressive behaviors? Who's ever been in a fight with someone of their own sex? Are you a gay rapist, then? Social memory and recognition? Stress and anxiety? Aside from providing a chemical basis for Freudian presuppositions—anxiety as a sign of libido, for instance, or the whole Oedipal thing—how are these things sexual?
Consider this, please: My
wristwatch has gears. And while it's rather quite difficult to find someone in my immediate circle who drives a manual-shift automobile, well,
that car has similar gears. Yet I promise you that my wristwatch
is not an Eagle Talon. It's not any kind of car.
And let's use that car analogy for a moment. It's probably been a decade now, but Porsche took heat at one point from critics and fans alike when it started using similar parts—in this case, headlight fixtures—in two separate models (911 and Boxster). For the car lovers, it was a betrayal. For Porsche, it was a matter of practicality.
Likewise, the diversity of life includes many overlaps. Something like 98% of our DNA is common to certain primates.
Does that make us bonobos?
The common point here is that
the presence of a simple component in two systems does not make the systems similar.
Thus, social recognition. It involves the identification of mates, friends, enemies, and status within hierarchies, at least. Are all of these overtly sexual behaviors? No, not even for the Freudian. That oxytocin is a key component in mammalian social recognition does
not mean that social recognition is a sexual function.
The broader problem people seem to be experiencing, then, is the perception of discord between Ancientregime's ferocious self-defense and his insistent advocacy of the point. Yes, we understand. It's not Ancientregime. It's the nutcases. But with diverse arguments put forth as a counterpoint, Ancientregime continues to paint himself into a corner, and after so many posts and increasing hostility, should we be surprised that people are, for lack of a better term, cutting to the chase?
Thus, so that we don't get hung up on anonymous social workers of someone else's acquaintance calling our topic poster an idiot, let us consider what it looks like.
It looks like guilt.
It looks like a psyche in conflict.
It looks like a fictitious or theoretic projection implemented to shield the self from that conflict.
The possibilities are numerous. Indeed, the most obvious—that Ancientregime stands accused of inappropriate conduct toward children—is actually the least likely. Were that accusation formal and legal, his lawyer would throttle him for this stunt.
Still, it could be a self-accusation. Or a social accusation without any legal force. And it could also very likely be that someone of his close association, for whom he otherwise feels a degree of admiration, stands accused.
There is a basic appearance of
projection about the proposition. This projection is fairly common. Indeed, nearly every male I know has experienced it in some form; it is a means for exploring ideas otherwise considered anathema. In my own life, I recall it coming up in considerations of masturbation, homosexuality, and transvestism. The average teenager, in my day, would not openly confess to any of these; and yet the psyche persists. So we create removed theoretical considerations.
It is the persistence, though, that suggests a stake beyond the merely academic. And, in the present issue, that stake is still hidden from the general audience. Given the belligerent, but otherwise insubstantial, defense of the proposition, there is a natural tendency for the audience to suspect or presume that the hidden stake is, in fact, sinister.
And this is what I find fascinating about this otherwise morbid discussion. What is so important about this point that our topic poster is so insistent? And what is so grievous about the stake that it must remain hidden?
The thing is that the grievous stakes are not always so heavy. Rather than indicting our topic poster, the whole situation may simply speak to an internal conflict.
I remember a truly awkward episode in which my mother discovered me, at eleven years old, looking through the lingerie section of a department store catalog. Hell, she probably doesn't even remember it these days, but I'm not going to ask her. To her credit, she tried to normalize the moment, pointing out that I don't have any sisters, and it was natural that I would be curious about certain things.
And perhaps that sounds more than a little creepy, but to a certain extent it's true. To propose an answer to a question I asked earlier, what makes watching someone go to the bathroom a sexual experience? The nearest I can figure is an association between the
verboten and the sexual. That is, I can remember trying to peek in on my cousins while they were in the bathroom when I was maybe seven years old. It wasn't that my brother or I were trying to see the girls urinating, but that we were trying to catch a glimpse of forbidden realms, the "peachy private place" as we conspiratorially called it.
All the guilt came years later, when I came face to face with the psychological and social impacts of incest. But that guilt was misplaced; one cannot expect differentiation where none was asserted. Perhaps other people learned from preacher and parent to not look at their relations for stimulation, but there are others who pick it up somewhere along the way. And, of course, there are some who have lifelong trouble establishing that differentiation.
The point being that some people carry heavy burdens of guilt and self-indictment that need not be. One need not imagine our neighbor Ancientregime a pedophile. Perhaps in his own life, he saw his mother or an aunt breastfeeding an infant, and like other young children who have not established familial differentiation in sexuality or proto-sexuality, experienced some sort of stimulation. There are many reasons why something like this might create a psychological conflict later in life.
And this discussion could be part of an internal struggle to resolve that conflict.
There are, in fact, myriad possibilities. Indeed, I would encourage those who are frustrated with Ancientregime's truculent insistence to attempt to view him sympathetically; it may be that he is caught up in a conflict others have long since resolved. And in this we cannot conclude stupidity; that would be the easy and self-righteously satisfying route. Would we have it said of us that we could have helped someone, but instead pushed them away for our own gratification?
To the other, though, I think it would be helpful if that stake was on the table. Ancientregime
must be, at some level, aware that the personal degree to which he has invested himself in this topic only draws attention to himself. The disclaimers begin to ring hollow in the logical void.
If anything makes breastfeeding sexual, it is a conscious recognition on the part of the individual. One might as well wonder if urination is sexual? After all, for men it involves a penis, the discharge of sperm, and it can feel
really good. (What? Drink in taverns enough and you'll eventually hear someone make the point.) And, of course, one can certainly make urination part of a sexual act, just as one can make suckling a breast a sexual act. Still, though, the action in and of itself serves a different purpose entirely, and one must recognize and affirm the sexual value of the action.
But standing in the stink of a tavern men's room, pissing into a trough filled with ice, generally doesn't ring among men as a sexual act. Given a choice, it's hard to see how even a significant minority of men would prefer to seek sexual gratification from a urinal instead of another person.
(As to women, urination and sexual gratification is beyond my realm of knowledge, although I will say that, while I
have encountered women who will urinate during the course of a sexual encounter, I have
never encountered a woman who claims to have had an orgasm in doing so. Of course, I don't expect that to be a leading topic of conversation, either. Still, though, the female urinary orgasm seems largely mythical, the badly-writ fantasies of desperate men, else it would be more common.)
There are plenty of mundane things that people will consider sexual if given the chance. I'm not a particular fan of costume-play, so I don't understand the attraction to nurse's outfits, but given the topic argument, we might as well make a blanket accusation that all female nurses are sexually harassing their male patients simply by dressing for work. And what the hell is the thing with men who like to be dressed up in knickers and spanked with a belt or cane while calling their mistress "Mommy"? Really, what the hell? Whose mother dressed you up in knickers before spanking you? (Oh, wait. We're back to the Freudian again. Never mind.)
So, yes. I'm fascinated by this morbid spectacle. Not because the proposition itself is intriguing; I reject it categorically. But I
do see a particularly engaging psychological struggle taking place that may or may not have anything to do with the actual act (breastfeeding) in question.
And as someone who has spent a lot of hours on the psychologist's couch, and whose sexuality still hides in the closet in regards to a small but vital portion of my living associations, go ahead and say that it takes one to know one. I'm not a mental health professional, so I can't offer to do the counseling. But I
do recognize a conscience in conflict. Whether that conflict is primary or secondary, a proximal or distal expression of itself, cannot be determined from the information available. But there's something going on here; the patterns are almost too clear.
And maybe there is nobody here that can help resolve the conflict. But at present, it seems Ancientregime is only adding to his own burden, becoming increasingly frustrated with people's growing distrust of his motive.
And so I still wonder: Behind the veils, beneath the question, what is that seed? Whence comes this confusion?
On a day so long ago, now no one can remember,
Theres a change, this too will pass and vanish in the haze.
This is moving too far under the skin of your sight.
Ocean of confusion took me back to the end of the night.
—Screaming Trees
____________________
Notes:
"Oxytocin". Wikipedia. Accessed February 11, 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin
"Oxytocin receptor". Wikipedia. Accessed February 11, 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin_receptor
Neergaard, Lauran. "Researchers Rethink Origin of Human Mind". Associated Press. May 10, 1998. http://www.primatesworld.com/HumanMind.html
Heffner, Christopher L. "Personality Development". Psychology 101. AllPsych Online. Accessed February 11, 2009. http://allpsych.com/psychology101/defenses.html