Is Abortion Murder?
- Thread starter Bowser
- Start date
Bells, though I protest having my threads closed and the last post used as bully pulpit, I certainly don't make threats...towards anyone. So, if I choose to protest an abortion clinic, it's my choice. I'm thinking: "Abortion is Murder" or "It's Your Child" Maybe a sign with two sides.
which is justified by your religious beliefs.
no you just provide cover for those who do. given your hostility to not being allowed to your hate to be peddled who can say about the future.
bull fucking shit. you'd go there to verbally abuse people in a shitty mental state. that is arm twisting and its finiest. that you feel justified doesn't make it moral.
{QUOTE]i'm not. his malicious intent was well proven by his own homophobic and misogynistic posts. that you would choose to ignore that in favor of making your self feel better about yourself getting on high horse because you think you have some fucking moral high ground cause you don't want to admit your defending some whose flat out stated he doesn't believe women have any rights to their body in regards children.[/QUOTE]
no demanding and wanting people to have less right is malicious.
again you show you have issues with acountability. typical of people of your ideological persuasion. you seem to think that free speech means you have the right to say what ever you with out criticism and without rebuke. this site does not wish to be linked with bigotry and sexism. that you keep wanting to push those and getting smacked down for it doesn't mean we aren't "tolerating" views. as i said before in one of your many temper tantrums you can say what ever you wish. you just got to suffer the consequences for them. which is what your really opposed to. you don't think we have the right to treat your disgusting ideas with the revulsion they so clearly deserve.
You have no clue what my religious beliefs might be. I don't believe I've quoted scripture or invoked any religious sentiment anywhere in this thread, so don't even go there. As for my involvement, yeah, just as certain as I would take action if it were any other life at risk. And who said taking another life should be easy?
Beer w/Straw said:
Aye, me too. Just barely.
The late eighties into the nineties, and then came 1991, when there was a season of action that saw mobs surrounding clinics in several cities. With court orders flying, and police dragging off protesters, it really was striking at the time just how deeply the right to intimidate was seeded in anti-abortion's assertion of free speech. The problem with the protest movement is that it is inextricably tied to what came next.
Dr. David Gunn, 10 March 1993, Pensacola, Florida.
Dr. John Britton, 29 July 1994, Pensacola, Florida.
James Barrett, 29 July 1994, Pensacola, Florida.
Shannon Lowney, 30 December 1994, Brookline, Massachusetts.
Lee Ann Nichols, 30 December 1994, Brookline, Massachusetts.
Robert Sanderson, 29 January 1998, Birmingham, Alabama.
Dr. Barnett Slepian, 23 October 1998, Amherst, New York.
That was the nineties. The toll of those attacks is staggering; the wife of slain John Barrett, June Barrett, was was wounded in the same attack that killed her husband; five others were wounded the day Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols died; Dr. Calvin Jackson of New Orleans survived being stabbed fifteen times on 18 December 1996; Dr. David Gandell narrowly escaped serious injury when someone shot at him, 28 October 1997; Emily Lyons lost an eye when Eric Rudolph destroyed Robert Sanderson with a bomb.
The twenty-first century saw an early respite, until 31 May 2009, when Dr. George Tiller was gunned down in a Wichita church. We should also note that on 19 August 1993, Dr. Tiller survived a shooting by Shelley Shannon, who would also be later convicted of arson and acid attacks. Dr. Tiller's killer, Scott Roeder, had visited Ms. Shannon in prison.
Dr. Tiller's replacement was to be Dr. Mila Means. It should be noted that Operation Rescue circulated "Wanted" posters of Dr. David Gunn the summer before he was murdered. Wanted posters circulated for Dr. George Tiller, as well. It is, in fact, a common tactic. Dr. Means was subject to the same treatment, including death and other terror threats that eventually forced the alteration of her lease, such that termination services could not be provided at the facility, and thus Kansas was left without an abortion services provider. On 15 February 2011, Operation Rescue claimed credit for defeating Dr. Means, and nobody blinked.
At any rate, those are the protests I'm recalling―the 1991 "Summer of Mercy"―that led to the murders, and led us down a pathway by which Operation Rescue can claim credit for terrorism and nobody seems to give a damn. Which, in turn, is a history worth recalling at this time, since it hinges on the same sleight of definition―murder―and postured itself as simply making a statement.
As to the difference you note, I think it's fair enough to observe here in these discussions, but in the case of actually going out and confronting someone in hopes of preventing an abortion, it is important to remember that the clinics can't afford the chance to figure out whether one is stupidly sounding dangerous or is, in fact, genuinely dangerous.
I notice you have over 17,000 posts. Are they much like this and the others I've seen. Granted, I don't have much time for public protests, but I feel this is important, and it's something that has been on my mind for some time.
Yes, some people take it too far. Any responsible Pro=Life organization will adamantly rebuke the idea of resorting to violence,, and they do.
Bells
Staff member
Well considering you insinuated I was a Nazi by posting Nazi propaganda images because I would not allow you to post hate speech about homosexuals, I can say, in all honesty, the thought of you protesting outside of an abortion clinic with signs terrifies me.
Are you aware that clinics who offer abortions also provide pre-natal care to women who wish to have a baby? Do you think it is acceptable to distress women who are pregnant, whether by choice or not, some having to face a horrendous decision, others just trying to maintain their health through their pregnancy, with your signs? Are you aware that your actions could constitute the harassment and intimidation of patients and staff?
Are you aware that going to these clinics with your signs and saying such things, that you could be inciting other people to violence? By holding up signs with words like "Abortion is Murder", you are inferring that the doctors, nurses and other staff who work there are murderers. You are accusing women of being murderers.
The focus on Albuquerque echoes the targeting of Wichita, Kan. Beginning in the early 1990s, antiabortion activists set their sights on Wichita because it was home to the medical practice of Dr. George Tiller, one of the few physicians in the Midwest who performed late-term abortions. Over the summer of 1991, antiabortion activists, largely organized by the group Operation Rescue, flocked to Wichita to assault Dr. Tiller’s clinic and two others. Over six weeks there were 2,600 arrests. While antiabortion activists had committed acts of violence before, 1991’s “Summer of Mercy” turned it up a notch. Since 1991, there have been 17 attempted murders of abortion providers. One of those providers was Dr. Tiller, who was shot twice in the arm outside his health center in 1993. Eight clinic workers have been killed, starting with Dr. David Gunn and two clinic receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, in 1994, and extending through 2009 when Dr. Tiller was shot to death at church.
Every clinic bombed or burned, and every clinician assaulted or killed, had been previously picketed, targeted or assailed by antiabortion groups like Operation Rescue and the Army of God. Operation Rescue issued “Wanted” posters of abortion providers, often listing their home addresses. Several of the doctors listed on the posters, including David Gunn, George Patterson, John Britton and George Tiller, were killed by antiabortion zealots.
The individuals who commit acts of violence against abortion providers and clinics often have ties to antiabortion organizations. James Kopp, who killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in New York, worked alongside Operation Rescue’s then-leader Randall Terry, driving with him from New York to Atlanta to begin the 1988 protests that put Operation Rescue on the map. In Atlanta, Kopp was jailed along with Terry and several Operation Rescue volunteers who went on to commit acts of violence:Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon, who shot Dr. Tiller in 1993; John Arena, who used butyric acid to attack abortion clinics; Normal Weslin, the founder of the radical group the Lambs of Christ; and Andrew Cabot, who reportedly called a man charged with murdering abortion providers a “hero.”
Many of the murderers of abortion providers had some affiliation with the group the Army of God. Nearly all of the murders were condemned by mainstream antiabortion groups. But those groups didn’t reconsider their rhetoric, organizing or tactics; they only amped them up.
Here’s how this works: The more radical antiabortion groups rally their supporters around a small handful of doctors and clinics who they’ve decided are particularly bad. They use offensive, overhyped language to impress upon their (often very religious, sometimes young) followers the urgency of the situation, telling them that they are literally the only bulwarks standing between life and death for thousands of babies. They compare abortion clinic workers to Hitler, to Nazis, to mass murderers. Right-wing radio, blogs, news shows and other media pick up on those talking points and disseminate them to wider audiences.
While that’s happening, more mainstream antiabortion organizations and Republican political leaders capitalize on that energy to introduce antiabortion legislation, anti-contraception legislation and a slew of other laws intended to make abortions harder to get and birth control harder to access. Some of the radical antiabortion leaders transition into positions of power in more mainstream groups, or are elected into political office. What were once far-right views — for example, that contraception is the same as abortion — make their way into the mainstream, and are adopted by large contingents of the Republican Party. While radical positions are being mainstreamed, some of the more extreme activists who have spent years hearing that abortion providers are Nazis but the U.S. government won’t do anything about it decide to take the next logical step and bomb a clinic or kill a doctor. The mainstream antiabortion organizations shake their heads in disapproval. Then they support the grass roots in rallying their extremist troops all over again.
Every clinic bombed or burned, and every clinician assaulted or killed, had been previously picketed, targeted or assailed by antiabortion groups like Operation Rescue and the Army of God. Operation Rescue issued “Wanted” posters of abortion providers, often listing their home addresses. Several of the doctors listed on the posters, including David Gunn, George Patterson, John Britton and George Tiller, were killed by antiabortion zealots.
The individuals who commit acts of violence against abortion providers and clinics often have ties to antiabortion organizations. James Kopp, who killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in New York, worked alongside Operation Rescue’s then-leader Randall Terry, driving with him from New York to Atlanta to begin the 1988 protests that put Operation Rescue on the map. In Atlanta, Kopp was jailed along with Terry and several Operation Rescue volunteers who went on to commit acts of violence:Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon, who shot Dr. Tiller in 1993; John Arena, who used butyric acid to attack abortion clinics; Normal Weslin, the founder of the radical group the Lambs of Christ; and Andrew Cabot, who reportedly called a man charged with murdering abortion providers a “hero.”
Many of the murderers of abortion providers had some affiliation with the group the Army of God. Nearly all of the murders were condemned by mainstream antiabortion groups. But those groups didn’t reconsider their rhetoric, organizing or tactics; they only amped them up.
Here’s how this works: The more radical antiabortion groups rally their supporters around a small handful of doctors and clinics who they’ve decided are particularly bad. They use offensive, overhyped language to impress upon their (often very religious, sometimes young) followers the urgency of the situation, telling them that they are literally the only bulwarks standing between life and death for thousands of babies. They compare abortion clinic workers to Hitler, to Nazis, to mass murderers. Right-wing radio, blogs, news shows and other media pick up on those talking points and disseminate them to wider audiences.
While that’s happening, more mainstream antiabortion organizations and Republican political leaders capitalize on that energy to introduce antiabortion legislation, anti-contraception legislation and a slew of other laws intended to make abortions harder to get and birth control harder to access. Some of the radical antiabortion leaders transition into positions of power in more mainstream groups, or are elected into political office. What were once far-right views — for example, that contraception is the same as abortion — make their way into the mainstream, and are adopted by large contingents of the Republican Party. While radical positions are being mainstreamed, some of the more extreme activists who have spent years hearing that abortion providers are Nazis but the U.S. government won’t do anything about it decide to take the next logical step and bomb a clinic or kill a doctor. The mainstream antiabortion organizations shake their heads in disapproval. Then they support the grass roots in rallying their extremist troops all over again.
You aren't just holding up a two sided sign. You are feeding the rhetoric that results in violence and murders and acts of terrorism.
Do you think this is acceptable?
And yet they rarely do.
In fact, many celebrate when acts of violence, even the murders of doctors, nurses and other staff at such clinics by increasing the rhetoric that encouraged people to 'kill' the 'murderers'.
You have made a few claims in this thread, such as your claim that sex education is prevalent, when the reality is that you are wrong.
It's not just a perception, though. It's backed by reason and evidence and reality and stuff.truck captain said:
Not infinitely. There is reality involved. The word "fanatical" has a meaning in English, and the behavior of the Democratic Party, its leadership, its nominated politicians and political platforms and rhetorical approach and campaign tactics and so forth, does not fit that meaning. You cannot find a reality based argument or evidence that the Democratic Party is fanatical - any subjective perception to the contrary is in error.truck captain said:
It is possible to hold a subjective opinion that is wrong. Sometimes when he said and she said, one of them is correct and the other is not.
The public debate on gun control is - uniquely - beset with irrational extremists on "both sides". But abortion is not - and certainly not within the Democratic Party. The perception that it - or any number of other such issues - automatically features fanatics on "both sides" and the Democratic Party represents them on "one side" is simply wrong. And it is not accidental - marketing that false view, and the creation of apathy and alienation that follows, has been a major effort of the intellectual and strategical backing behind the Republican Party.truck captain said:
They have to obscure and confuse the public about what the Republican Party has been doing since 1980, and is to blame for, or they will never win another national election until all currently well known Republican politicians and public figures are dead.
Well, you are handing me the marketing slogans and talking points and propaganda canards of the media strategists backing the current Republican Party political efforts. So you might want to check up on your sources of "key issues" and their framing.truck captain said:
Notice, for example, how you have slipped from claiming to understand and perceive that "both sides" are not equivalently or equally degraded (above), to implying that seeing Dem and Rep fanaticism equally means they are equally fanatical. Notice that you have not argued for equivalence in fanaticism by reasoning from evidence - comparing Dem intellectual and leadership behavior and rhetoric with Rep intellectual and leadership behavior and rhetoric in a few major issues, say - but insisted on it following from the mere existence of the opinion, the fact that some people think it to be the case.
No adult in a democracy is excused from political effort. But that does not remove accountability from professional marketers and propagandists, from those who bribe and bully media outlets, from swindlers and liars and cheats with self-serving agendas. They are to be blamed for what they accomplish.truck captain said:
Tracking down the context and meaning of Congressional votes is way too much to expect from regular people. It's the job of journalists, and they have screwed it up in ways identical to what one would expect from successful bribery and bullying by the corporate Right - which we know was applied.truck captain said:
They are to blame for the bad stuff they do, and selling the public on Republican slander of others and ass-covering of themselves is very bad stuff.truck captain said:
And to bring it around: the misogyny and oppression and male supremacy and ugly streak of violence suffusing the Republican "prolife" efforts is a cheek of that hairy ass they need to cover. The modern Republican voting base is nothing the Party wants anyone to get a good look at in the clear light of day.
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Bells, I never insinuated you were a Nazi. The image was a reflection of how I felt about the overall situation. I was here back in the days of Dave, the original owner of Sciforums. The guy was the most tolerant man on the planet--and I miss him. If you feel slighted, I apologize.
Presumably he is advocating that abortion should be illegal. At the point where it is made illegal, somebody is imposing their beliefs on women.
Or, could it just be he can't formulate a good argument?
You can't impose your beliefs on someone else if you don't have the power to do so. I can vote for things I believe in, that's democracy. I believe in world peace and if I had the power, I'd stop the fighting in the Middle East instantaneously. Also make military expenditures go towards forming an Earth defense force in case of alien invasions.
but, apparently, only human life... right? because you don't feel all life is sacred... you are very selective in your choice of "life is sacred"
and that is the point i've made more than once regarding your arguments.
so you've claimed... and people who believe opposite you have also claimed the same thing with the same evidence.
it is politics, thus, like philosophy, it is subjective to the individual. you interpret it as "A", whereas your polar opposite will interpret the same evidence as "B"... the exact same "reason and evidence and reality and stuff" that you use. which is my point (and if you don't believe it, feel free to get into the discussion on PO or with some of your fanatical opposites)
i am not claiming there isn't. i am claiming that, despite your perspective, you will have radical believers in the other camp using the same evidence as proof that you are wrong. they will perceive it differently.
yes...
https://www.wordnik.com/words/fanatical
and i did not claim the whole was fanatical. i said there are fanatical believers on both sides. you even quoted it...
the topic of gun control or agw is no different than discussing politics and parties. you will find "true believers" and fanatics on both sides, and regardless of the evidence, it will be proof that they are correct. You can see this on any PO political thread, especially when Ryggy gets involved.
this is a good example of fanaticism, IMHO... it seems to infer that there is no integrity in the REPUB, and the only place you can find it is in the DEM
i live in a typical DEM area, and i hear this a lot... but just down the road, there is a strong REPUB area, and of course, i hear this exact same argument a lot, saying "clinton" "obama" blah blah blah.
politics is like philosophy: you will see it however you want to see it to justify your own personal belief system and support your own world view.
right. because if i disagree with you, i must be politically motivated? a lot of people call me a liberal... a lot call me conservative... i don't consider myself either. and i don't care about any political party.
actually, i prefer not to even debate the issue because, IMHO, both parties are crap.PERIOD
i can understand your belief, be it degradation etc... i can accept that you believe in your POV... i can see you feel it is justified.
but no matter what you say, and until i can have non-politically motivated evidence that can be validated, i will continue to feel exactly how i stated above: BOTH parties are CRAP. PERIOD
now.... please quote what specifically you are talking about in this part of your post (below)
because, like i continue to state, there is fanaticism in both parties. always has been, always will be.
and i don't hand you "slogans" when i am typing IMHO or talking about personal perspectives, as posted above, etc... i don't care about your party slogans. you keep them. you will need them.
but that is what it is all about
but it is the job of the individual to validate what is being told
not saying journalism is free from error, nor am i saying it is not broken as well... but accepting everything on the news as fact is really stupid, IMHO.... like the AR-15 shotgun BS in a recent shooting... or the overwhelming anti-gun stance found in most media outlets...
IMHO- spoken like a true fanatic.
they are responsible for the bad stuff they do... but also selling DEM propaganda too.
if you want to spread your pro-DEM propaganda, that is your prerogative... but don't just expect me to swallow it all and say "you must be right! after all, you are posting on a moderated forum on the internet!" ....the way i see that? RULE 37
also, i hate both parties. i will side with neither, regardless of your acceptance of either party.
just aint gonna happen!
do i really need to point out the whole: "IMHO- spoken like a true fanatic." or "politics is subjective to the individual" thing again?
I have several actually.
::rollseyes::
your defensiveness only proves my point. as does your constant whining.
thats laughable. so by your definition none of them are responsible.?
what is it about posting on internet forums makes people think arguing i'm too stupid to understand what i was doing is somehow a valid defense? you knew exactly what you were implying and about who if your going to make a nazi reference at least have the decency to own it.
That isn't true. You are simply assuming such people arguing from such evidence exist. They don't.truck captain said:
The closest you get are people recognizing but denying the evidence I use, occasionally - mostly, the people who try to argue from evidence that all politics is equally degraded and the Dems are as screwed up as the Reps and so forth simply invent what they need or treat hypotheticals as facts in order to do that.
That's Republican Party propaganda.truck captain said:
You can't recognize "non-politically motivated evidence" from within the Republican Party propaganda bubble - or you'd see it all around, for example on this thread about abortion policy. You specifically mentioned abortion as an issue illustrating Democratic Party fanaticism - so where is it?truck captain said:
Your inability to point to it is an item of evidence I have noted three times now.
And I pointed out that the Democratic Party does not represent them, include them in its leadership, have them write Party platforms, or any of the rest of what would have to happen for the Democratic Party to approach the Republican Party in fanaticism.truck captain said:
Well, you're wrong about that. The Democratic Party, as an institution, exhibits no fanaticism.truck captain said:
That isn't possible. Ordinary people cannot fact check and context verify what professional journalists have to work full time to discover and research.truck captain said:
They don't. Except possibly regarding guns - which I have named as a unique issue four times now - they sell only rightwing corporate propaganda, much of it Republican Party in origin, none of it Dem.truck captain said:
You mean imply, not infer, and I go much farther than that - I state flatly that there is no integrity in the modern Republican Party, and that the Democratic Party still has some as a normal political Party . It's not an implication, it's an explicit observation plainly made.truck captain said:
And notice that this is not fanaticism - I have no cause here, no particular fondness for the Democratic Party, no allegiance to its positions on things. I have numerous areas of agreement with the ostensible Republican Party positions on things - from gun control to abolishing the NEA.
You keep posting stuff like this as if it meant something. Having disagreements or conflicting views does not make people equally whacko. Once again: there is reality involved.truck captain said:
You will note the Dems are much better connected with it - like normal political believers, they will have some questionable opinions or illusions or whatever, but ordinary stuff.
Meanwhile, the ordinary Republican on the topic of Clinton or Obama holds opinions - originating in Republican media operations, ets - that are batshit crazy, fruit loops, goofball. Last poll taken, more Republicans think Obama was born in Kenya than think Cruz was born in Canada. They think global warming is a fraudulent invention of elitist scientists conspiring to obtain big government grants. They think Katy Couric asking Palin what newspapers or magazines she read was an unfair gotcha question from the liberal media. They think the media is liberal. They think the bank bailout was socialism and Obama did it. They approved of the fact that in 2012 every single Republican candidate for President raised his hand on TV in public agreement with the claim that there were serious doubts about Darwinian evolution, and "both sides" should be taught in high school.
Yes, you do. And your claims of independence are rendered dubious by the fact.truck captain said:
If you do, bring some argument and evidence this time.truck captain said:
By pro life reckoning, over a million human lives are taken annually, and your response is to counsel the offenders to stop the slaughter. If instead of a million fetuses, it were a million new born babies, would your actions still be limited to nonviolent intervention?