Iraqi Arab Jews

[S.A.M.]

Sam,
Your not going to get away with taking a broad stroke and toss out everything wikipedia makes available.

Its pretty clear who came out ahead when the Arab Jews made their exodus to Israel and it was Arab league policy that caused most of it. Certainly not the bullshit you were presenting.

So why didn't the Jews apply for refugee status? Why didn't they apply for compensation from UNWRA as Palestinians did?

One of the most important factors which convinced me was the exodus of Jews from India to Israel. 2000 years in India [for the oldest tribe] and most of them [almost all in fact, but a very tiny minority], simply packed up and left for Israel.

 

[earth]

So why didn't the Jews apply for refugee status? Why didn't they apply for compensation from UNWRA as Palestinians did?

You tell me and provide your links at the same time.

I should give you my coveted cheap tricks jack in the box award.

 

[S.A.M.]

You tell me and provide your links at the same time.

I should give you my coveted cheap tricks jack in the box award.

I think we're done here.

 

[earth]

Arab league, Arab league, Arab league takes the blame for just about all the Arab Jews lost by moving to Israel.

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
But yes, Israel essentially destroyed the Middle Eastern Jewish culture, simply by existing.

This comment you made I really dislike. You clandestinely deflect the real reason Jewish culture was destroyed in the Middle East by blaming Israel instead Arab league policy during that time in history. Then you say Israel did it simply by existing.

This is where you have been coming from:
The problem with this claim was that before Israel came into possession of the West Bank and Gaza in the Six Day War, every Arab state had rejected Israel's right to exist and declared Israel's pre-1967 borders -- now deemed sacred -- to be nothing more than the armistice lines suspending, and not ending, the 1948-49 war to exterminate Israel.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/07/israels_existence_at_stake.html


Jews are people just like you and me.

 

[Michael]

There are people (Muslims) who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources. They dominate the intersections of world routes. Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions. These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another … if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world. Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.”

- British Prime Minister Henry Bannerman, Campbell-Bannerman Report, 1907

This one was interesting

 

[Michael]

One of the most important factors which convinced me was the exodus of Jews from India to Israel. 2000 years in India [for the oldest tribe] and most of them [almost all in fact, but a very tiny minority], simply packed up and left for Israel.

Why did they leave? How many left? It seems like one could actually send an email to one of these jews and ask them personally why they left (it wasn't that long ago). Might be enlightening.

 

[S.A.M.]

This one was interesting

I got that one at Mondoweiss. I couldn't find the direct quote on any site that I would consider "scholarly", but I found a reference to it in this book.

But the quote itself is suspect since the document has not been publicly released and references to it are based on parts revealed in secret negotiations, according to the historian Muhammed Hasnain Haikal in "Secret Negotiations between the Arabs and Israel". The book is not digitised so I cannot confirm it.

Why did they leave? How many left? It seems like one could actually send an email to one of these jews and ask them personally why they left (it wasn't that long ago). Might be enlightening.

I couldn't find exact figures for how many left but there are about 70,000 of them in Israel [there are others in US and other western nations]. Probably a few thousand still in Bombay and maybe about 20-50 left in other parts of the country/

As to why, well they made aliyah :shrug:

 

[Michael]

weird....

I suppose seeing as in their religion says something about Israel being their land given to them by god and all (about the size of the pan-handle of Florida).


What about this. Suppose the shoe were on the other foot. Suppose Mecca were conquered and occupied by various peoples down through the ages. Suppose Muslims lived in Dhimmitude. Then after 2000 years or so one of the last conquerors, the British, had decided to give them back their land. How many Muslims wouldn't flock back? I could imagine a lot.

 

[S.A.M.]

Arab league, Arab league, Arab league takes the blame for just about all the Arab Jews lost by moving to Israel.


This comment you made I really dislike. You clandestinely deflect the real reason Jewish culture was destroyed in the Middle East by blaming Israel instead Arab league policy during that time in history. Then you say Israel did it simply by existing.

This is where you have been coming from:
The problem with this claim was that before Israel came into possession of the West Bank and Gaza in the Six Day War, every Arab state had rejected Israel's right to exist and declared Israel's pre-1967 borders -- now deemed sacred -- to be nothing more than the armistice lines suspending, and not ending, the 1948-49 war to exterminate Israel.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/07/israels_existence_at_stake.html


Jews are people just like you and me.

You're not thinking. Lets try it with an analogy:

The United States of America destroyed Native American culture, simply by existing.

Canada destroyed Inuit cultures, simply by existing

Australia destroyed Aboriginal culture, simply by existing

The existence of Israel created an irrevocable break in the identity of Iraqi Jews and other Jews who had to shed their Arabness to adopt their Jewishness.

Just think of a similar situation happening in your country, if half of your country was given away to foreigners who saw the people living there as a demograhic threat [as did all Zionists beginning with Herzl], what happens to the identity of members of that group living in the region?

There is always two sides to a story.


Israeli officials of the time and in particular Mordechai Ben Porat and Shlomo Hillel, prominent figures at the Iraqi Zionist underground, vehemently deny the charges. An internal investigation conducted in Israel in 1960 found no proof of an order to execute such an attack. More possible responsible parties have been suggested, such as the Iraqi CID and the Muslim Brotherhood.[/url]

Indeed, then how do they explain the death of people like Raziel in Iraq?

David Raziel (December 19, 1910 - May 20, 1941) was a fighter of the Jewish underground during the British mandate, and one of the founders of the Irgun.

In 1937 he was appointed by the Irgun as the first Commander of Jerusalem District and a year later Commander in Chief of the Irgun. His term as leader was especially marked by violence against Arabs, including a sequence of market-place bombings.

On May 17, 1941 he was sent, with three of his comrades including Ya'akov Meridor, to Iraq on behalf of the British army. On May 20, a bomb from a German aircraft killed him and the British officer with him.

What was an Irgun commander doing in Iraq with British forces in 1941?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Raziel

Ironically its how they usually find these Zionist operatives:

e.g. the Lavon affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

The Lavon Affair refers to the scandal over a failed Israeli covert operation in Egypt known as Operation Susannah, in which Israeli military intelligence planted bombs in Egyptian, American and British-owned targets in Egypt in the summer of 1954 in the hopes that "the Muslim Brotherhood, the Communists, 'unspecified malcontents' or 'local nationalists'" would be blamed.[1] It became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or euphemistically as the Unfortunate Affair (Hebrew: העסק הביש‎, HaEsek HaBish). In 2005, Israeli President Moshe Katzav honored the nine Egyptian Jewish agents who were involved

Even if you search wiki with some forethought, you can see the corroboration of what first person accounts tell us.

 

[earth]

Originally Posted by S.A.M.You're not thinking. Lets try it with an analogy:

One can’t go with the evidence or facts when using analogy.

The United States of America destroyed Native American culture, simply by existing.

That happened in the U.S and not in the middle east. Your comparing apples with oranges. Your talking about the wild west here. That was a different time and different cultures and not the same historical record as in the middle east.

Canada destroyed Inuit cultures, simply by existing

That happened in Canada and not in the middle east. Again, your comparing apples with oranges and not the same historical record as in the middle east.

Australia destroyed Aboriginal culture, simply by existing

That happened in Australia and not in the middle east. Again, your comparing apples with oranges and not the same historical record as in the middle east.

The existence of Israel created an irrevocable break in the identity of Iraqi Jews and other Jews who had to shed their Arabness to adopt their Jewishness.

People don’t suddenly lose their identity and culture as you say they do. Actually, when folks move from one country to another they bring there identity and culture with them. Just like Muslim Americans living in the U.S. have today.

Indeed, then how do they explain the death of people like Raziel in Iraq?

Make your case by presenting the evidence or facts and not by asking a question or using analogy. Thanks for the link but you must use the link yourself to make your point.

I guess you want me to explain the cause of the death of Raziel and here it is:
On May 17, 1941 he was sent, with three of his comrades including Ya'akov Meridor, to Iraq on behalf of the British army. On May 20, a bomb from a German aircraft killed him and the British officer with him. Meridor returned to Palestine and took over command of the Irgun.
A German bomb from a German aircraft killed him, so what is your point?

What was an Irgun commander doing in Iraq with British forces in 1941?

Make your case by presenting the evidence or facts and not by asking a question or using analogy. Understand this tactic of asking a question and providing the link to get me to make your case for you is a cheap trick. Thanks for the link but you must use the link yourself to make your point. Don’t expect me to make your point for you by answering your questions. Do your think you’re in some classroom questioning a student? So what is your point?
The article doesn’t say why the Irgun commander was in Iraq other than he was sent, with three of his comrades to Iraq on behalf of the British army. Orders from the British army is the reason why he was there. Details contained within the orders is not in the link.

Ironically its how they usually find these Zionist operatives:

Nothing for me to comment on here. I guess you have an opinion but not stated.

e.g. the Lavon affair

Spying and covert opts is the name of the game and not that unusual. It was a failed Israeli covert operation and that’s also part of the risk.

You see we both can use wiki articles and that’s fair. We didn't get anywhere and you failed to make a case whatsoever. So what is your point? Saying "simply existing" makes your case is nonsense. Using I exist so that makes your case or point is bullshit.

 

[S.A.M.]

You see we both can use wiki articles and that’s fair.

Of course, if I were using only wiki articles to make my case. The death of the an Irgun commander in Iraq, especially one who specialised in market place bombings sent there by British forces, accused by Iraqi Jews of undermining the local nationalist movement are all corroborative of each other, as is the work by Eric Davis which gives historical confirmation to the presence of Indian Gurka British regiments and the other research from print media which gives a background to what was actually occurring.

Compare that with unsupported Israeli assertions that its all false and the Muslim britherhood did it, when there is no evidence of that Egyptian group being involved in the Iraqi riots. In fact, the brotherhood has an Iraq presence only from 1960.

 

[earth]

This is the case:
excerpt,
The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced out or fled their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel in 1948-1951, 600,000 by 1972. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of a coordinated effort among Arab governments to create physical and political insecurity. Most were forced to abandon their property. By 2002 these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population. One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). The organization asserts that the Jewish exodus was the result of a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...rom_Arab_lands

Arab league policy is the reason most of the Arab Jews moved to Israel. Case in point.

 

[S.A.M.]

And why did almost all of them leave India? Why are they still leaving the US and Europe by the tens of thousands?

 

[earth]

And why did almost all of them leave India? Why are they still leaving the US and Europe by the tens of thousands?

You tell me sweetie. Provide some links backing your theory.

 

[earth]

Compare that with unsupported Israeli assertions that its all false and the Muslim britherhood did it, when there is no evidence of that Egyptian group being involved in the Iraqi riots. In fact, the brotherhood has an Iraq presence only from 1960.

The Muslim Brothers (Arabic: الإخوان المسلمون al-ikhwān al-muslimūn, full title The Society of the Muslim Brothers, often simply الإخوان al-ikhwān, the Brotherhood or MB) is a transnational Sunni movement and the largest political opposition organization in many Arab states, particularly Egypt. The world's oldest and largest Islamic political group was founded by the Egyptian schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna in 1928.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

How can you say the botherhood has an Iraq presence only from 1960? Anything to substantiate that statement?

 

[S.A.M.]

You tell me sweetie. Provide some links backing your theory.

What do you want links for? That they left India? Already given.

That they are still leaving for Israel? Its only been the most talked about news item since Obama asked the Israelis to evacuate the settlers. Who do you think the settlers are?

Regarding the farhud. although the zionist narrative gives it as the reason for the evacuation, its clear from history that the evacuation happened slowly, over a period of decades and the farhud itself had little impact on the decision of Jews to make aliyah. Just like the Indians, it was only after Palestine was partitioned and the native inhabitants dispossessed that the need for cheap labour [to replace the Arabs] made it profitable for Zionists to bring in Jews from the Middle East and Asia.

Not surprisingly these Jews were and to some extent still are considered inferior buy the dominant European Jews

Source: The Arab Jews

 

[earth]

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
But yes, Israel essentially destroyed the Middle Eastern Jewish culture, simply by existing.

This has been the discussion I got involved with you about. You have been all over the place, yet not making a case.

 

[S.A.M.]

The Muslim Brothers (Arabic: الإخوان المسلمون al-ikhwān al-muslimūn, full title The Society of the Muslim Brothers, often simply الإخوان al-ikhwān, the Brotherhood or MB) is a transnational Sunni movement and the largest political opposition organization in many Arab states, particularly Egypt. The world's oldest and largest Islamic political group was founded by the Egyptian schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna in 1928.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

How can you say the botherhood has an Iraq presence only from 1960? Anything to substantiate that statement?

As far as I know they are a primarily Egyptian Sunni Muslim group. Iraq is mostly Shia. I would assume that they came into power in Iraq after the Sunnis were set up by the British which is after 1941. Their official branch was established in 1960

 

[earth]

As far as I know they are a primarily Egyptian Sunni Muslim group. Iraq is mostly Shia. I would assume that they came into power in Iraq after the Sunnis were set up by the British which is after 1941. Their official branch was established in 1960

The Iraqi Islamic Party was formed in 1960 as the Iraqi branch of the Brotherhood,[74] but was banned from 1961 during the nationalist rule of Abd al-Karim Qasim. As government repression hardened under the Baath Party from February 1963, the group was forced to continue underground. After the fall of the Saddam Hussein regime in 2003, the Islamic Party has reemerged as one of the main advocates of the country's Sunni community. It has been sharply critical of the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, but participates in the political process.[75] Its leader is Tariq Al-Hashimi.

Okay, I can agree to 1960 for the offical branch, but covert opts allows for a presence in Iraq before 1960. They could have been operating in Iraq before the recognized offical branch and most likely were.

You know, its not likely the Brotherhood suddenly was there in Iraq in 1960 but not before. The Israelis think the brotherhood had influence in Iraq before 1960.

 

[S.A.M.]

This has been the discussion I got involved with you about. You have been all over the place, yet not making a case.

I already did. Arab Jews outside the Middle East [including New York] who speak Arabic, eat Arab food, listen to Arab music and have a long history of Arabic cultural tradition are estranged from Arabic Muslims and Christians. Why? Because of their association with Israel.

The ones who chose to live in the Middle East are not.

Whats the difference between the two?