Iraq: Violence 70% Down Since June

[Hani]

Hani "the only thing that I'm afraid of now is Iran (your ally, you know what I mean)."

No, I don't. Please explain exactly what you mean.

Never mind, that was a digression (I still think you know what I mean ;-)

"...Iran is the only force that is capable of messing Iraq up now, or that is potentially willing to do so."

News Flash: Iraq Messed Up, Already- Iran Didn't Do It

No it is much better than it has been (80% better ). Anyway, it's true that Iran didn't start the mess, but they have been playing a great rule in igniting things up. I think they still haven't used all of their provision of vandalism yet.

 

[Hani]

i have said it before and i will say again it is irrelevent if the surge is working because it is not sustainable therefore not a long term solution to the violence.

There are other things happening than the surge. e.g. more Iraqi forces being available...

 

[iceaura]

"The death squads and ethnic cleansers" those are being contained, they have been significantly contained

That's one hypothesis. Another is that their surge over the past year was successful, and the drop in their attacks is due to their having largely won.

"The Iranians and proxy Shia" those are the real time bomb.

They are also the government in Baghdad, apparently.

"The Kurdish separatists preparing for war with whomever. " Those are harmless, they are not a real threat to anything

Except the government of a unified Iraq and the oil concessions around Kirkuk (and the Turkish, Iranian, and Syrian states). The Kurds are flying their own flag, and fielding their own army, at the moment.

"The Sunni preparing for war with the Shia" I think those are the same people who were mentioned first!

Often. They are also the new tribal allies whose cooperation against AQ (in return for arms and training) has been widely hailed as good news.

The Saudis and proxy Sunni Give me a break. This is certainly one of the stupidests myths that Americans have created.

The Saudis are certainly providing a great deal of aid to somebody in Iraq. Who do you think that is?

The US and proxy "allies" Those are certainly winning

How do you know ? Who are these "allies", btw ?

"The jihadists who want the war to keep going as is and bleed all their enemies, financially and politically." Those certainly aren't winning because most of the ass kicking that is going on now is directed to theirs.

And in the process, the war is extended and continues to bleed their enemies financially and politically. So how are they losing?

"None of the above: the curve is going to go back up, and possibly force the US out." Let's wait and see.

For how long?

 

[hypewaders]

"For how long?"

Not very

It isn't nice to know that a lot of interesting places are about to go to shit for a while. It must be no more comforting to shallowly pretend it uninteresting to discover that a lot of misunderstood places are about to go to shit. More disconcerting still is the axiom that what goes around.. comes around.

Busheviks: Stop shitting the messengers. We'll have an equal-opportunity hoe-down of sad emoticons before we've danced this mess around. I hardly ever cry at my keyboard, but the facts keep coming in, about this sitiation when

residential "hehe":
"Right ain't feelin' right, right now":bawl:
You people are nuts- If you fuck things up enough, we'll all wind up miserable together.. one Big Unhappy. Plan it.​

 

[Hani]

iceaura,

That's one hypothesis. Another is that their surge over the past year was successful, and the drop in their attacks is due to their having largely won.

Yea, but we should always presume the worst hypothesis to be true. Your hypothesis would be great because it means that ethnic cleansing is over in Iraq and it will never happen again even without the surge. I wish this is true.

They are also the government in Baghdad, apparently.

Yes.

Except the government of a unified Iraq and the oil concessions around Kirkuk (and the Turkish, Iranian, and Syrian states). The Kurds are flying their own flag, and fielding their own army, at the moment.

But this is not an actual factor in violence and instability calculations that we're talking about.

Often. They are also the new tribal allies whose cooperation against AQ (in return for arms and training) has been widely hailed as good news.

This is a new myth. Where is your proof?!

The Saudis are certainly providing a great deal of aid to somebody in Iraq. Who do you think that is?

Where do you know from that Saudis are providing a great deal of aid? if they did, which I don't know about, it would be for civilian organizations.

Who are these "allies", btw ?

Are you asking yourself?! you wrote that...

And in the process, the war is extended and continues to bleed their enemies financially and politically. So how are they losing?

This is not what the statistics show, which this whole thread is about.

For how long?

I guess until the surge is recessed, and then we'll see if the curve will go back up to where it was, according to your theoris.

 

[Hani]

hypewaders,

No need to get all that emotional. I thinks it's very touching for you, sitting in Australia, to see change happening here in Mid East, but I also think it has been even more touching for many people who have lived under Saddam and his likes and still suffer the consequences of his rule.

 

[hypewaders]

I'm a repatriated American, whose prospects for returning with security to many places I love are dimming, because the wrong leadership at the wrong time has been wrecking the future.

Yes, much greater empathy is necessary for all our learning, and for the advance of humanity beyond disasters such as those we discuss here. Try and understand why the occupation has been a greater insult to Iraqi sovereignty, and national viability, than Saddam ever was.

 

[Hani]

Interesting things you say... so who do you think is responsible for you not returning to your places? is it America or Hizbullah and its ALLIES? did America do harm to your country? No. Did Iran do? yes, big time. So who's the wrong side?

 

[countezero]

For everyone's information:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1207/Reid_pushes_back_on_Iraq_optimism.html

 

[hypewaders]

Yes, thank you countezero the Democratic Race is inferior, and foundering in swiftboats.

Untruth wins wars. We have to believe in the Product: Perma-Surge- the Surge that keeps on Surging, in a Blackmobiuswaterlogged imperial slippery-slide. New! Improved! surge, absorb blowback, repeat Just like not-so-Great-anymore Britain rued the waves (knuckles forward with the V if you please).

This is beyond Voodoo Economics. You people are so irresponsibly out of your minds, we're taking y'all and yours out of power before you do more lasting damage. You think the militaristic Right-wing evangelical fuck-up is gaining support? Your myths will increasingly explode.

It's like the Cowpoke said to his Pony, "Watch the Almighty, Dollar".

And the Pony looked back, thinking "what a fucking Idoit".

 

[Echo3Romeo]

Yes, thank you countezero the Democratic Race is inferior, and foundering in swiftboats.

Untruth wins wars. We have to believe in the Product: Perma-Surge- the Surge that keeps on Surging, in a Blackmobiuswaterlogged imperial slippery-slide. New! Improved! surge, absorb blowback, repeat Just like not-so-Great-anymore Britain rued the waves (knuckles forward with the V if you please).

This is beyond Voodoo Economics. You people are so irresponsibly out of your minds, we're taking y'all and yours out of power before you do more lasting damage. You think the militaristic Right-wing evangelical fuck-up is gaining support? Your myths will increasingly explode.

It's like the Cowpoke said to his Pony, "Watch the Almighty, Dollar".

And the Pony looked back, thinking "what a fucking Idoit".

Were you intoxicated when you posted this?

 

[hypewaders]

No. Is it hard to understand?

 

[Hani]

Numbers drop for civilian deaths, foreign fighters in Iraq

 

[hypewaders]

What war do you suppose had a linear toll of hell's bells, Hani?

 

[iceaura]

Numbers drop for civilian deaths, foreign fighters in Iraq

It takes a special kind of mindset to see a surge of US soldeirs as the cause of a drop in foreign fighters in Iraq,without doing any arithmetic.

Yea, but we should always presume the worst hypothesis to be true. Your hypothesis would be great because it means that ethnic cleansing is over in Iraq and it will never happen again even without the surge.

What my hypothesis would mean - along with the several others you find complacently unexceptional - is that the US is losing in Iraq. Actually getting beat on the ground. And that the current reported drop in violence, whatever part of it is real, is a sign of that.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) took to the Senate floor on Monday to highlight the "stunning reversal" in Iraq, and chided Democrats, saying "unfortunately, talk of congratulations is scarce among the anti-war left."

At least he's toned down from the immediate aftermath of "Mission Accomplished", when the anti-war left was called everything from traitors to exposed fools for failing to congratulate W&Co on their swift and decisive victory.

 

[Echo3Romeo]

No. Is it hard to understand?

It reads like you were hitting the sauce like the fist of an angry god and then gave us a stream of consciousness narrative of what was rolling through your head at the time.

 

[spidergoat]

Yup, stark raving mad. Understandable really.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yup, stark raving mad. Understandable really.

Stark raving mad, Yes......Understandable, No.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yes, thank you countezero the Democratic Race is inferior, and foundering in swiftboats.

Untruth wins wars. We have to believe in the Product: Perma-Surge- the Surge that keeps on Surging, in a Blackmobiuswaterlogged imperial slippery-slide. New! Improved! surge, absorb blowback, repeat Just like not-so-Great-anymore Britain rued the waves (knuckles forward with the V if you please).

This is beyond Voodoo Economics. You people are so irresponsibly out of your minds, we're taking y'all and yours out of power before you do more lasting damage. You think the militaristic Right-wing evangelical fuck-up is gaining support? Your myths will increasingly explode.

It's like the Cowpoke said to his Pony, "Watch the Almighty, Dollar".

And the Pony looked back, thinking "what a fucking Idoit".

No Echo3Romeo, I think he just got back from his electroshock therapy.

 

[iceaura]

A little walk down memory lane with Mitch McConnell http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...93BA25756C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

For Conservatives, Mission Accomplished
By JOHN MICKLETHWAIT AND ADRIAN WOOLDRIDGE
Published: May 18, 2004

Last week Washington was the site of the biggest birthday party you never heard of. The occasion was the 40th anniversary of the American Conservative Union, and the guest list included all the grandees of right-wing America, from Senator Mitch McConnell to Phyllis Schlafly to Wayne LaPierre of the National Rifle Association to, of course, President Bush.

In his speech, the President promised that ''for our blessed land the best days lie ahead,'' and was greeted with several foot-stomping ovations and cries of ''Four more years!'' But the real flavor of the event was captured by what the president called the ''fine group of decent citizens'' gathered at the tables in front of him -- members of the N.R.A., the Heritage Foundation, the Family Research Foundation and countless other groups that make up Conservative America. One man wore a tie with the Ten Commandments; women carried handbags in the colors of the American flag; and when the narrator of a film about the conservative union used the phrase ''right-wing nuts,'' the room roared its approval.

______
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/01/le.00.html {August of 2004} {Blitzer}

- - -
Senator McConnell, I'll begin with what Senator Kerry just said on this program. He promised that if he doesn't reduce significantly the number of U.S. troops in Iraq by the end of his first term, if elected of course, he would consider it to be a failure.

Do you think he's got the wherewithal to get that mission accomplished?

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: I think President Bush certainly would reduce the number of troops in the next term.

The key to additional troops in Iraq, of course, is Iraqi troops. And that's why the administration sent General Petraeus over there, one of our very best generals, to help train the Iraqi military to bring them up to speed, because, after all, in the end, it's their country.

They have a new government now. They're going to have elections in January. And that's where the new troops need to come from, from Iraq, not from the U.S.

- - - - -

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: - - -

Wolf, I was in Iraq about, oh, three or four weeks ago. I met with General Petraeus. Mitch McConnell is right. This is a great American general who has one of the most critical assignments right now, and that is to train the Iraqi army and security forces.

He's making great progress at that. And I'm not one who wants to make any predictions, but if the work that General Petraeus is doing and the Iraqi military comes along as well as it appears to be now, I think we may be in a position to cut back on the number of American troops there next year.

Gotta like that liberal-biased media, with Blitzer setting up a fierce debate between critic and defender of the Iraq War to shed light on its meaning for Kerry and Bush in the upcoming election.