Iraq Veterans vulnerable to commit suicide

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count said:
, I can't help but think the only reason people are talking about this is because they believe it will provide them with more ammunition for ending the war. Heck, Spider has said as much. So has Ice.
No, I didn't. And I objected to your misrepresentation the first time. I don't know if spider did, somewhere I missed it, but somehow I doubt that.

Please read carefully, and in context, and pay attention when people correct your more flagrant BS, or (better) give up ascribing ulterior motives as your main technique of argument. The issue of the OP is sufficient for support of discussion, here and in most threads.
echo said:
West was embedded with us (3/1 Marines) in the fall of 2004 when we finally cleared that place out.
The fact that Fallujah is not even yet "cleared out", despite more operations since the fall of '04, is relevant here, as are the circumstances surrounding the Fallujans' initial slide into extreme hostility toward the American occupation.

What the US military as a whole did to Fallujah and the people who lived there, from the occupation through the destruction of the city, was not honorable, not praiseworthy. The question here is whether this larger context in which the individual American soldier was fighting makes a difference to their morale, psychological health, or matters such as suicide, in the aftermath.

The problem of soldier morale and mental health in the aftermath of a dishonorable and unjustified war is not an abstract one. Soldiers need and deserve praise for their individual (and organizational) honor, their individual virtue, the courage and dedication to service they so clearly and admirably demonstrated - but how is that to be given in the context of something like Vietnam or Iraq ?

Do we need to lie about Iraq, to promote delusion and fantasy, to keep soldiers from killing themselves, or is there another approach ?
 
No, I didn't. And I objected to your misrepresentation the first time. I don't know if spider did, somewhere I missed it, but somehow I doubt that.

Spider hasn't denied it, because he knows he has made the sort of comments I spoke of. You said the following: "It helps inform the decision on whether to back immediate pullout, by making more accurate the account of the costs of remaining." So you are looking at this issue as part of your criteria for whether the war is worthwhile or not. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should be honest about it. In other words, I don't think you are concerned about this issue in and of itself. You are concerned about this issue, because it is part of a larger anti-war tapestry. I admit I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Not when yor write things like the following:

"The problem of soldier morale and mental health in the aftermath of a dishonorable and unjustified war is not an abstract one. ... Do we need to lie about Iraq, to promote delusion and fantasy, to keep soldiers from killing themselves, or is there another approach?"

You have inserted your opinion into a situation and reached a conclusion that has been directly impact by that opinion. Pointing this out is nothing more than questioning your conclusion, and in doing so, trying to discern why you reached such a conclusion. Alterior motives can and should be addressed if you're attempting to portray yourself as an honest broker. Honest brokers typically aren't biased.
 
I think it was the US that vetoed (several times) UN action when Israel invaded Lebanon and occupied it for 18 years.

I also remember that it was the US that trained the Mujahideen, of which Osama was a member, and then after using them, left them to terorrise the countries around them. Al Qaeda came into being for the sole purpose of resisting US military actions in the ME, if you believe Osama's taped declarations.

And I believe it was the Arabs who failed to abide by the treaties that they signed to become members of the U.N. and vetoed U.N. Resolution 181 by starting a war they lost, failed to make a peace after they had got their ass's beat, maintained a state of war against Israel for 59 years, and some still maintain today, and failed to move into the 20th, century let alone the 21st century, in their religious and social societies.

The U.S. didn't get involved with Israel until after the 1967 war, and then it was because the Soviets stuck their noses into the Politics of the Middle East. Remember it was the Soviets that were the first to supply the Israelis after the 1948 war, not the U.S.


I also remember that it was the US that trained the Mujahideen, of which Osama was a member, and then after using them, left them to terorrise the countries around them. Al Qaeda came into being for the sole purpose of resisting US military actions in the ME, if you believe Osama's taped declarations.

Again you fail the history of your area, the Taliban was the construct of Pakistan, and Osama Binladen and al Quada were a religious construct that didn't appear until years after the Afghanistan War was over. alQuada was put together to oppose the stationing of Infidels in the lands of the Ummah and that we were defiling the holy ground of Islam.
 
I think it was the US that vetoed (several times) UN action when Israel invaded Lebanon and occupied it for 18 years.

Try dealing with what I post. You said: "The only terrorists in the world right now were all brought to power by the US," which is abject bullshit. I gave you two examples (there are many more) that shot large holes in this statement. You dealt with one, ignored the other and in typical fashion made bizarre counterclaims.

Lebannon? Are you really trying to blame the US for that melting pot disaster? There are, what? 18 tribes all fighting and claiming a birthright there? And how what do the US votes you talk about have to do with the founding of Hezbollah?

I also remember that it was the US that trained the Mujahideen, of which Osama was a member, and then after using them, left them to terorrise the countries around them.

Osama was not a member of the Muj. The Muj were all tribal Aghans or Pashtuns, etc. No Arabs were involved, so you really don't know your history. And if you did, you wouldn't subscribe to this foolish notion that they were trained and left (for starters, the Pakistani ISI did most of the training). The US gradually cut ties with the Muj, because after the Soviets left the Muj turned on each other and began fighting it out for control of Afghanistan. Put simply, the US waffled and had no idea who to back or what to do. What it did know is that it didn't want to be mixed up in a tribal civil war in the ME.

Al Qaeda came into being for the sole purpose of resisting US military actions in the ME, if you believe Osama's taped declarations.

No, it didn't. Read The Looming Tower if you want an explanation about why Al Qaeda came into being. Ostensibly, OBL was upset the US had troops in Saudi Arabia, but the bulk of the group's ideology came from OBL's earlier involvement in places like Sudan, his anger at the Saudi royals for not being "Islamic" enough and Al-Zawahiri's similar thoughts about Egypt and a caliphate. In other words, it's an organization based on jihad and religious purification.
 
Did the Looming Tower say why he joined the Mujahideen?

Osama'a attacks have all been directed at the US, did the Looming Tower explain why?

Try a Secret History of Al Qaeda by Abdel Bari Atwan
 
count said:
You said the following: "It helps inform the decision on whether to back immediate pullout, by making more accurate the account of the costs of remaining." So you are looking at this issue as part of your criteria for whether the war is worthwhile or not.
And that is not the same thing as this:
count said:
, I can't help but think the only reason people are talking about this is because they believe it will provide them with more ammunition for ending the war.
So my complaint about your misrepresentation is well taken. Again. Please to address this continual failing of yours in the future - in advance, before people have to go out of their way to bring it to your attention .

To ask you to attend to context is too far-fetched even for me, but if you do want to notice - upon rereading - that in context I was posting not my own but hypothetical others' reasons for accurately counting suicides among Iraq vets, nobody would object.

In point of fact, my own reasons for talking about this have almost nothing to do with my belief that immediate pullout would be preferable to almost any realistic manner of continuing to occupy Iraq. You were, in other words, completely wrong about that.

Which you seem to recognise, in sliding into language about "general anti-war tapestry" and so forth.

The task of discussing the vulnerability of modern soldiers to suicide and other psychological ills without at all appearing "anti-war" to anyone, or without lending support to any arguments against the continuation of a particular war, appears impossible to me.

The question of interest remains: does the nature of the Iraq invasion and occupation - in contrast to wars fought in honorable or necessary ways, against real enemies, and in defense of hearth and home - bear on the apparently disproportionate frequencies of real psychological troubles among the soldiers ?
 
Did the Looming Tower say why he joined the Mujahideen?

Yeah, it has an entire chapter that covers his youth, early career, travels to Afghanistan, activities after the Soviet era, time in Sudan, loss of Saudi citizenship, and so on. Ayman Zawahiri and Said Qutb get similar treatments.

In particular, The Looming Tower gets into a lot of detail about the relationships between the Arabs, the Mujahideen, the ISI, the CIA and Saudi intelligence/royals. Suffice it to say that the Arabs were never involved in significant fighting, and mostly sat around in Peshawar (and later, Tora Bora) telling one another tall tales about their heroism against the Soviets. Their functions seems to have been largely as bag-men for the river of Saudi money pouring in to support the Afghan Mujahideen. Late in the Soviet occupation, when it was effectively over with, they started participating in fighting, which they use to bolster their myth about driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan, but the truth is that it was more of an ideological summer camp than significant military operation.

The book is also very good on the topic of the various rival Islamic extremist organizations that fused into Al Qaeda, and spends a lot of time detailing their differing views and goals, the personalities of their leadership, and how their interrelationship defines Al Qaeda.

Osama'a attacks have all been directed at the US, did the Looming Tower explain why?

His attitudes and beliefs about America are explored in depth, although I'd dispute that all of his attacks have been directed at the US.
 
BBC's The Power of Nightmares was another incisive exploration of the origins and mutations of al-Qaeda. It includes the often-overlooked detail that it was the Americans during the Clinton Administration, and not Bin Laden & Associates, who applied the moniker "al-Qaeda" on all they could make stick in public perception to Bin Laden. The neoconservatives later picked up that ball and ran for endzones only they could see. The Power of Nightmares notes that Bin Laden bought his way into mujahhed prominence with money, and not with any particular masterminding gravitas; his role in the organization has been greatly distorted by American propagandists seeking to shape and limit public perceptions and curiosity about al-Qaeda- to focus the emotions of the public on a marketable villain, and limit our examination of the causitive, ideological, and logistical connections that lead back to live connections in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt; to limit our examination of US policy that resulted in delayed but severe blowback. American attention is being distracted by our own leadership, because they know we could never be so trusting of them if we considered the loaded past. So through a wildly distorted lens, a lanky, effeminate rich-kid plays mujaheddin, and dresses up like a religious saint, like a future caliph, and is projected into our minds as a menacing super-villain and replayed, and replayed, and replayed as a fearsome spectre.

Anyone serious about understanding what al-Qaeda, and more broadly terrorism against the West really has been about must look beyond the exploitation in the West of al-Qaeda as boogey-man and simplistic totem. Any serious understanding requires descriminating the exploitation of the al-Qaeda brand in describing, for example, various insurgents in Iraq- often a deliberate distortion of exactly whom we are fighting there. Serious understanding of the Mideast origins of terrorism against the USA and American interests requires an especially attentive review of the history of America's closest client state in the region- Israel. And you can't be attentive for long without learning to recognize a consistent pattern of oversimplifications and spin being deliberately injected into public consciousness. We're being told from authority not to bother ourselves with these causitive connections. Instead Americans are instructed by authorities in government and major media to assume it's all happening because we're good, and socially advanced in the USA, and those terrorists and crazy "Hajjis" are not as good, and not as advanced as us; hate our freedoms; are a new menace like the old Iron Curtain, etc.

Understanding the agonies of Lebanon requires examining the implications of the dispossessed Palestinian diaspora. countezero for example interjected Lebanese issues in such a way as to demonstrate his ignorance of the connections. Neglect toward these aspects will always and inevitably muddle up any thought or discussion of issues involving the Mideast and terrorism, including this discussion of the psychological blowback upon US troops who have been assigned the mission of sorting all this out while even American leadership persists in demonstrating deep ignorance, deliberate deception, and criminal negligence in formulating and explaining policy to the public they serve, and to the foreigners whose lives they are disrupting and often destroying.

Discussions like this require a lot of sidebars, because the most misinformed often try to impugn what they disagree with as ideologically-driven fabrication. What I am expressing, what iceaura expresses, and what S.A.M. expresses is not in the least monolithic- we each have differences in perspective.

But there is a much greater contrast in how countezero, or Baron Max respond: These shrink away from taking a closer look at the issues; at the perspectives of opposing sides. They are quick to cry out that I and others are vacuous ideologues; heartless soldier-slanderers; that we do not understand war, or sacrifice, or suffering; that we do not understand or possess honor; that we are conspiracy theorists, etc, and etc. There is a recurring pattern of resorting to ad-hominems, to questioning of the motives and character of other posters, apparently in a rather desperate effort to avoid getting into detail on the causes and effects, and exploits of terrorism; of unpopular conflicts; of "collateral" casualties; and of vetern suicides.

There is a marked contrast in response to the issues here among two general camps. One camp is eager to project a support-the-troops, warrior-elitist bravado (and sadly a large proportion of the American public still persists in fawning torpidly on similar memes). This mindset is consistently at a visible disadvantage in preparedness to explore and address the background of what we are discussing, because a more objective and empathetic approach is destructive to cherished but false assumptions. This intellectual and moral apathy produces behaviors of denial that are readily apparent with every diversion into ad-hominems and feigned righteous and patriotic outrage.

Centering back on topic, this debilitating handicap born of deception and perpetuated in denial is no small part of why many combat veterans cannot hope to re-connect with society after their traumatic reveltions: Having witnessed the horrific truth in the most violent ways possible, certain veterans come home to find themselves hopelessly isolated within a military and national culture that is bristling with contrived illusions. Often they are viciously isolated, as when the morally sensitive and as when PTSD victims are maligned as weak pants-pissers. All for the sake of denial of realities incompatible with deadly illusions that go on wrecking lives, souls, and nations.
 
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Through a wildly distorted lens a lanky, effeminate rich-kid playing mujaheddin/ future-caliph dress-up became a menacing super-villain in many duped minds, and remains a fear-inspiring ghost today.

And then there's the whole he is responsible for the death of more than 2,000 Americans...

Understanding the agonies of Lebanon requires examining the implications of the dispossessed Palestinian diaspora. countezero for example interjected Lebanese issues in such a way as to demonstrate his ignorance of the connections.

Sure. OK. Whatever. What did I write that was inaccurate? Nothing. The fact I didn't mention this facet of the conflict does not demonstrate ignorance in any way. That facet of the conflict wasn't what I was talking about it didn't apply, so I didn't mention it. Yet you automatically leap to the assumption I don't know about it? Sure. OK. Whatever.

What I am expressing, what iceaura expresses, and what S.A.M. expresses is not in the least monolithic- we each have differences in perspective.

I have no problem with differences in perspective. But I do have a problem when people let their perspective warp their appreciation of facts and reality. Sam has done that in this thread with her inane comments.

But there is a much greater contrast in how countezero, or Baron Max respond: These shrink away from taking a closer look at the issues; at the perspectives of opposing sides.

Right. I shrink away from taking a closer look at the issues? What's that, code for I don't reach the same conclusions after looking at the issues as you do? Sure. OK. Whatever. That seems to be a common trend on this site as well. Certain people, like yourself, think it's just IMPOSSIBLE for other members to legitimately arrive at a different conclusion than their own. Other people are either dishonest (one of your favorite claims), biased or ignorant. And you know this because you know EVERYTHING and are ALWAYS right.

Sure. OK. Whatever.
 
countezero: [Bin Laden] is responsible for the death of more than 2,000 Americans..."

He's the label. There were many other more important players involved whose trails have been obscured- not only by they and their accomplices, but also by the Western leaders exploiting fear and disinformation for power.

"I do have a problem when people let their perspective warp their appreciation of facts and reality. Sam has done that in this thread with her inane comments."

Let's have an example, and examine it.

"I shrink away from taking a closer look at the issues?"

Yes, you very often do.

"What's that, code for I don't reach the same conclusions after looking at the issues as you do? "

No, it's not a code. It is an observation of what you are doing in this very part of this very discussion. You are not delving into the subject- instead you're crying "foul", appealing theatrically for me to humble myself, when you haven't bothered in the least to keep pace with my conversation.

"Certain people, like yourself, think it's just IMPOSSIBLE for other members to legitimately arrive at a different conclusion than their own."

Nonsense. Get back on topic. Post with some intellectual fortitude, and I'll give what you post careful attention.

"Other people are either dishonest (one of your favorite claims), biased or ignorant."

Don't forget lazy. You're also being intellectually lazy. If you want further analysis of your behavior, there are better places than here. Let's get back on topic.

"And you know this because you know EVERYTHING and are ALWAYS right."

When it comes to many of our discussions, I apparently do know more about various subjects at hand, because you resort to this kind of whining while I am left to appeal to you for a return to a deeper examination of the subject at hand. I would like to have more thoughtful discussions with you than this, but you will first have to overcome these egoistic distractions. Consider me a know-it-all if you like, but that doesn't excuse you from superficiality. How many times have you delved into this topic at the level of my last post?

Count: zero.
 
Here, I'll offer you a fresh start at more revealing conversation

Understanding the agonies of Lebanon requires examining the implications of the dispossessed Palestinian diaspora. countezero for example interjected Lebanese issues in such a way as to demonstrate his ignorance of the connections.

countezero: "What did I write that was inaccurate? Nothing. The fact I didn't mention this facet of the conflict does not demonstrate ignorance in any way. That facet of the conflict wasn't what I was talking about it didn't apply, so I didn't mention it. Yet you automatically leap to the assumption I don't know about it?"

Can you help me with finding your statement that I was recalling? I went back looking through the thread for it twice through, but I missed it both times. Here is what I recall, entirely paraphrasing: "Lebanon was intrinsically fractious, with 18 competing factions". There were more than 52 in Beirut alone when I lived there, and the most militant and ascendant from the start were Palestinian militias. The Lebanese disaster did not spring exclusively from a domestic Lebanese problem with multiculturalism. It cascaded from ethnic cleansing South of the border. Great crimes, like any eggregious human abuse, have a way of forming devastating progressions, feedback loops, or cycles of violence: Shoah -> Nakba -> Lebanese Civil War.

Now, if I'm way off in my recollection of what you wrote, then I apologize for that. But it's still important to identify the connections between many cataclysmic societal events. These don't often spring unprovoked, as we are too often lead to believe, from the evil or moral depravity of a given political, social or cultural group.

If I am not too far off base, then I am willing to discuss with you as equals how the flood of Palestinians into Lebanon tipped over the country. We can explore further, preferably in an appropriate thread, the ongoing implications- Because so many have been learning so little, Lebanon is poised at the brink now again. And ever since the British Empire passed the baton, and up until we shot ourselve in the balls in Iraq, the USA has been the leading power-broker in the Mideast, with powerul influence on every major event in that period, including the flaring up of anti-American terrorism- And including an unpopular war in Iraq that is bringing among many other miseries a significantly higher-than-normal rate of veteran suicides. Maybe I misread you, but you seemed to have been repeating a variation on the deadly old lie that the "ragheads" just can't get along, and we Americans need to sort them out for their own good and ours.
 
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He's the label.

He's slightly more than that. He's the money, the organizer, the coach and the instigator. Again, if you want a detailed analysis of his role, see The Looming Tower. Or read the 9/11 report.

There were many other more important players involved whose trails have been obscured - not only by they and their accomplices, but also by the Western leaders exploiting fear and disinformation for power.

And this is why I said you are delusional in another thread. Are you going to start speaking (in tongues) about Tower 7 next? Other more important players? Other accomplices? Who, beyond Al Qaeda was involved with 9/11? Let me guess. Israel? The Mossad? That sounds about up your alley...

Let's have an example, and examine it.

It's been pointed out. Twice. She wrote: "The only terrorists in the world right now were all brought to power by the US." That, as I said before, is abject bullshit.

It is an observation of what you are doing in this very part of this very discussion. You are not delving into the subject- instead you're crying "foul", appealing theatrically for me to humble myself, when you haven't bothered in the least to keep pace with my conversation.

If I haven't bothered to "keep pace" with your conversation, it has little to do with appeals and theatrics and everything to do with being bored by your typical brand of smugness and self-delusion. You're obviously an intelligent fellow, or seem to be capable of intelligence, but like a lot of Leftists, you sully your intellect with vitriol, and the result is a sort of self-imposed rhetorical wonderland, where your truths are the only truth and the facts either fit into your viewpoint or they are casually disregarded as "propaganda" or "disinformation." Such stumbling would be cute, the way a third-grader without front teeth is cute, if you didn't take yourself so seriously, and if this was the X-Files and not real life.

Nonsense. Get back on topic. Post with some intellectual fortitude, and I'll give what you post careful attention.

Nonsense? You didn't even seriously consider what I previously wrote. You went to your motif about dishonesty, bias and ignorance, which is exactly what you've done in numerous other threads. I can't believe you shrugging this off, especially when you're very next remark is the following:

Don't forget lazy. You're also being intellectually lazy.

Right, so I should add lazy to my list of sins. I'm just too lazy to do the legwork to become as brilliant and enlightened as you. Sure. OK. Whatever.

If you want further analysis of your behavior, there are better places than here.

I didn't ask for an analysis of my behavior. You gave one without prompting, presumably because you didn't like or agree with what you read. In the future, I suggest you don't do that, then we can "stay on topic," as you continually (and bizarrely, given the thrust of your post) suggest.

When it comes to many of our discussions, I apparently do know more about various subjects at hand, because you resort to this kind of whining while I am left to appeal to you for a return to a deeper examination of the subject at hand.

Right. Now I'm whining, too? I was responding to your random and esoteric attacks. Since it was my brief appreciation of the Lebanese conflict that so upset, let me pepper you with a question you overlooked: What did I write that was inaccurate? Nothing. Yet you launch into your wobbly attack on my intellect and understanding, and now you have the nerve to stand there and posture as though you occupy some sort of intellectual high ground? That's rich.

I would like to have more thoughtful discussions with you than this, but you will first have to overcome these egoistic distractions. Consider me a know-it-all if you like, but that doesn't excuse you from superficiality.

You make me laugh. You really do.

How many times have you delved into this topic at the level of my last post?

Numerous times. Go and find them and educate yourself.

Count: zero.

Oh, how clever of you. Can you do that whilst standing on your head?
 
Buffalo:

So, are you contemplating suicide because spitting on Viet vets is still chic is certain parts of the human community?
 
countezero "[Bin Laden is] the money, the organizer, the coach and the instigator."

That just isn't true. You've been deceived. Bin Laden isn't financing and running a global network from some hidy-hole. Nor was he the prime financier or mastermind of 9-11.

"If you want a detailed analysis of his role, see The Looming Tower. Or read the 9/11 report."

I've read the 9-11 Report, but not The Looming Tower so far. The 9-11 Commission Report did not convince me of Bin Laden's towering personal power, pulling the strings of 9-11. From the anecdotes and videos, he seems more like a peripheral player crowing about a collective crime.

"Are you going to start speaking (in tongues) about Tower 7 next?"

WTC 7 was structurally damaged and set afire by the collapse of the larger towers. It took some time to burn out enough to fall in.

"Other more important players? Other accomplices? Who, beyond Al Qaeda was involved with 9/11?"

We have never seen an organizational chart of the perpetrators of 9-11. It doesn't exist, because the organization was theatrically labeled and hyped, but never seriously investigated. War took precedence.

"Let me guess. Israel? The Mossad? That sounds about up your alley..."

You haven't been paying attention. I have long posted here my hunches. I think the conspirators primarily share the nationality and ideology of Bin Laden, but have not been identified and connected with the amorphous entity dubbed al-Qaeda by the White House and major media. The 9-11 investigation is a deliberate shambles.

Let's have an example [of S.A.M.'s transgressions].

"It's been pointed out. Twice. She wrote: "The only terrorists in the world right now were all brought to power by the US." That, as I said before, is abject bullshit."

That may be some overstatement, but it's not entirely bullshit. Do you really believe that US foreign policy has not provoked the most significant terrorism of our times, such as 9-11?

"like a lot of Leftists, you sully your intellect with vitriol, and the result is a sort of self-imposed rhetorical wonderland, where your truths are the only truth and the facts either fit into your viewpoint or they are casually disregarded as "propaganda" or "disinformation.""

I'm here communicating my opinion. It springs from my perspective, and my experiences, which have been considerable. I'm not so often communicating other opinions and perspectives than my own. This doe not mean that I do not acknowledge other perspectives. I only believe in one truth; but I don't profess to own it. Can we get back on topic? Post with some intellectual fortitude, and I'll give what you post careful attention.

"You didn't even seriously consider what I previously wrote. You went to your motif about dishonesty, bias and ignorance, which is exactly what you've done in numerous other threads. I can't believe you shrugging this off, especially when you're very next remark is the following:"

Don't forget lazy. You're also being intellectually lazy.

"Right, so I should add lazy to my list of sins. I'm just too lazy to do the legwork to become as brilliant and enlightened as you."

That's entirely up to you.

"I didn't ask for an analysis of my behavior."

Great. Analysis complete. Let's get back on topic.

"You gave one without prompting, presumably because you didn't like or agree with what you read. In the future, I suggest you don't do that, then we can "stay on topic," as you continually (and bizarrely, given the thrust of your post) suggest."

Awesome! Agreed.

When it comes to many of our discussions, I apparently do know more about various subjects at hand, because you resort to this kind of whining while I am left to appeal to you for a return to a deeper examination of the subject at hand.

"you have the nerve to stand there and posture as though you occupy some sort of intellectual high ground? That's rich."

Higher ground- Come on up. You can do it.

"You make me laugh. You really do."

Good. At least you're entertained. Me too.

How many times have you delved into this topic at the level of my last post?

"Numerous times. Go and find them and educate yourself."

Alright, here goes: Find all posts by countezero

I'll take a little time to see if I've been wrong about you.
 
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Oops, can't leave so directly while there's a new heap of old bullshit to step around.

Mr. G.: "spitting on Viet vets is still chic is certain parts of the human community"

The Spitting Image

There, that pretty much covers it. I'm off to get edumacated now.
 
The fact that Fallujah is not even yet "cleared out", despite more operations since the fall of '04, is relevant here, as are the circumstances surrounding the Fallujans' initial slide into extreme hostility toward the American occupation.

What the US military as a whole did to Fallujah and the people who lived there, from the occupation through the destruction of the city, was not honorable, not praiseworthy. The question here is whether this larger context in which the individual American soldier was fighting makes a difference to their morale, psychological health, or matters such as suicide, in the aftermath.

The problem of soldier morale and mental health in the aftermath of a dishonorable and unjustified war is not an abstract one. Soldiers need and deserve praise for their individual (and organizational) honor, their individual virtue, the courage and dedication to service they so clearly and admirably demonstrated - but how is that to be given in the context of something like Vietnam or Iraq ?

Do we need to lie about Iraq, to promote delusion and fantasy, to keep soldiers from killing themselves, or is there another approach ?
Very few soldiers care much about the political underpinnings of the mission at hand or the moral outrage of critics in the cheap seats.
 
Most do care about purpose in sacrifice. In the wake of profound sacrifice and trauma, repressed emotion about purpose and guilt often becomes a crushing psychological weight.
 
echo said:
Very few soldiers care much about the political underpinnings of the mission at hand or the moral outrage of critics in the cheap seats.
That does not address the question I put there - which is not the only question involved.

The question put was whether the nature of the missions at hand, the daily business of the actual doings, or the memory-informed reaction and adjustment to civilian return, are different in some influential way for the soldiers of a wrong and unjustified war.

Your response raises another question: in light of the essentially political failure of the US occupation of Iraq - the political failure to win the hearts and minds, as was necessary for success of the mission - would you agree with Ho Chi Minh's battle general that a soldier is better off without a weapon than without a political understanding of their mission ?

(I quote the earlier, since you seem to have overlooked the main issues:
What the US military as a whole did to Fallujah and the people who lived there, from the occupation through the destruction of the city, was not honorable, not praiseworthy. The question here is whether this larger context in which the individual American soldier was fighting makes a difference to their morale, psychological health, or matters such as suicide, in the aftermath.

The problem of soldier morale and mental health in the aftermath of a dishonorable and unjustified war is not an abstract one. Soldiers need and deserve praise for their individual (and organizational) honor, their individual virtue, the courage and dedication to service they so clearly and admirably demonstrated - but how is that to be given in the context of something like Vietnam or Iraq ?
 
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Oops, can't leave so directly while there's a new heap of old bullshit to step around.

Mr. G.: "spitting on Viet vets is still chic is certain parts of the human community"

The Spitting Image

There, that pretty much covers it. I'm off to get edumacated now.
Thus is your skill at dropping farg made testiment:
demotivators_1974_4163490


demotivators_1974_4070667
 
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