Iraq Veterans vulnerable to commit suicide

[hypewaders]

Buffalo Roam: "The difference seems to be in the expression of support for the fighting men by their countries at home."

So true. Not only unpopular wars, but also the close-in killing of non-combatants do always take a much heavier toll on the emotions of the soldiers involved. Mortal danger and death-dealing without a popularly-recognized cause is very bad for morale and mental health. These are aspects that we must frankly consider in sending our troops to fight and die, and in supporting and extending unpopular occupations.

 

[wanneszinnig]

The fact is that this problem of suicide among combat veterans isn't new, it is a problem as old as warfare its self, it has been not as sever in some war as others, but it has been present after all wars.

The difference seems to be in the expression of support for the fighting men by their countries at home.

Having been a survivor, and having been through treatment for Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, I have a great deal of knowledge about the why and wherefore of suicide in combat veterans, Been there and still recovering.

You are 100% correct.

And respect to you for dealing with PTS. I used to suffer from PTS and I know it is a constant struggle.

 

[Sangamon]

Oh, sure ...but it has no meaning unless there's a legitimate, valid statistical rate with which to compare it. For example, what's the rate of suicide for men of the same age group, same lifestyle, same economic level as the vets? Without such comparison, the stats on vet suicides means nothing.

of course they have compared it. When they say vets are twice as likely to commit suicide it means they look at the average number of suicides per, lets say, 10.000 'normal' people and then compare that with the number of suicides per 10.000 vets. If the second number is higher than the first then vets are more likely to commit suicide.

do you grasp that concept? It really isn't all that complicated. It does involve a little bit of math but even so...Think about it for 5 seconds...

Interesting comment ...especially since there are more wars and conflicts in the world today than ever before in the history of mankind ....and you pretend to know reality??? ...LOL!

First of all I wouldn't be so sure there's more conflict now than ever before in history. I'm no historian but even I can see that is a pretty bold statement to make... i mean we've had the conquering of the americas, the endless wars in the middle ages in europe, the crusades, etc etc. and before that the countless tribal wars. I think all things considered a great big part of the world today is alot safer than 500yrs ago
Second of all the fact that there is alot of war and conflict nowadays doesn't in any way imply that killing is easy and war is heroic. It just means that regular people who just want to get on with their lives and raise their children in peace are being raped and maimed and killed... and that's all it means.

So, .....12-year old kids can't think?

they can figure out computer games pretty fast but I wouldn't trust them to have a valuable thing to say about world politics no. Would you?

 

[Baron Max]

of course they have compared it. When they say vets are twice as likely to commit suicide it means they look at the average number of suicides per, lets say, 10.000 'normal' people and then compare that with the number of suicides per 10.000 vets. If the second number is higher than the first then vets are more likely to commit suicide.

Nope, you still don't get it, do you?!

Look, the only way to know whether those numbers mean anything is to compare them to a comparable set of "control" numbers. So, ....take the soldiers who were in combat who committed suicide, then compare it to the soldiers who've been in combat who DID NOT commit suicide. Then, and only then, would the numbers actually mean something valid.

This study, as cited, compares the actions of soldiers in combat to "normal" people who have never ever been in any combat at all. That's hardly a valid comparison of data. It's like comparing the auto accident rates in teenagers who drive, versus teenagers who don't drive!! ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Buffalo Roam: "The difference seems to be in the expression of support for the fighting men by their countries at home."

So true. Not only unpopular wars, but also the close-in killing of non-combatants do always take a much heavier toll on the emotions of the soldiers involved. Mortal danger and death-dealing without a popularly-recognized cause is very bad for morale and mental health. These are aspects that we must frankly consider in sending our troops to fight and die, and in supporting and extending unpopular occupations.

So you think you know of what you speak, I spent Twenty years in service, and I have never seen any massacre as you described by U.S. Troops, Any Massacre alleged or factual were investigated, and if found factual, were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ.

In combat, civilians die, there is nothing you can do so it doesn't happen, especially when the enemy chooses to fight from the cover of civilian homes, and not wear a distinctive uniform.

But the interesting thing that you need to understand is that, all of the PTSD veterans I know, what causes them the most problems is the fact that they couldn't save some one, be it a buddy and fellow trooper, or a civilian that got caught in the fight, the thing that drives our PTSD is the fact that we survived, and our friends died, and we could not save them, that even at the cost of our lives we could not save them, we would rather have saved them at the cost of our lives, than let them die.

What I had to learn, and considerable cost to my soul is that in war people die, and that I couldn't change that fact, and that I couldn't save everyone that was in danger, that the best I could do, was what I could do, and survive to go home, to forgive myself for the fact that I couldn't save all.

 

[spidergoat]

Knowing what you're fighting for might make a difference as well.

 

[countezero]

This discussion is about suicide in a particular war. It is not a leap of logic in this context to consider thoughtfully why this may be occurring, including the examination of the psychological implications of a war that is highly unpopular. It is a jumpier leap to avoid the investigation.

That's fine. Examine it. But be honest about why you're examining it and what you hope examining it will reveal. As I've stated previously, I can't help but think the only reason people are talking about this is because they believe it will provide them with more ammunition for ending the war. Heck, Spider has said as much. So has Ice. So please, don't pretend like this topic bubbled up out of nowhere and attracted everyone's interest because you all lie awake at night worrying about the mental well-being of our troops.

Then let's be respectfully honest: This thread isn't about winning the war. This thread is about losing soldiers like we don't normally do.

I actually made a mistake. I meant to write that there are plenty of logical arguments for ending the war. As for "losing soldiers like we don't normally do," I'd need to see a lot of data before I believe that. Suicide and depression is an effect of combat — in any war.

The most notorious enemy, "al-Qaeda", was in fact our own invention.

Oh, bullshit. We did not create AQ. Bin Laden did. The fact certain people in Iraq chose to side with those fantatics is not our fault. We did not hold a gun to their heads and order them to become terrorists.

Not true. Spider's link, and mine preceding it, pointed to the present GI combat-veteran suicide rate, which has been shown to have been grossly under-reported.

And there are veterans from wars on than Iraq.

The Iraq war has been getting more deadly for our troops with time, while the Whitehouse and major US media try and pretend otherwise.

Actually casulties have been going down. Try reading some of those nefarious news outlets sometime. You might learn something.

It appears that suicides are even more steeply increasing on average, although information on that has been demonstrated by CBS and other reporting to have been under active government suppression.

Yeah, right. Must be why CBS ran a story on it then...

 

[maxg]

Very few people have expressed (in any great detail) legitimate concern for the Vets, talked about deficiencies in their health care and proposed solutions to the problem I allowed exists (again, for argument's sake).

Well I don't think the solutions are that difficult to imagine. The army needs to provide better counseling and suicide screening services for troops returning home. They seem to be doing so for soldiers who are amputees (see one of the earlier links I posted) where at one hospital at least not a single amputee has committed suicide and they are rightly proud of that fact. However, as with many other aspects of this war, the planning for providing services to troops has been woefully inadequate. It took some news media attention before the Army started addressing the problems at Walter Reed and it will probably take similar scrunity before they address this issue.

If this is what Spider posted, it was not conflict-specific, and as such, doesn't match up with the initial premise of the thread. I never said CBS was biased. That was someone else.

Yes that's the study and while the general data are not conflict specific there is a rationale given for concluding that a major part of the rise in suicides is related to these recent conflicts.

While the suicide rate among the general population was 8.9 per 100,000, the level among veterans was between 18.7 and 20.8 per 100,000.

That figure rose to 22.9 to 31.9 suicides per 100,000 among veterans aged 20 to 24 -- almost four times the non-veteran average for the age group.

I don't believe there are any 20 to 24 year olds who are veterans of earlier wars.

 

[hypewaders]

Baron Max: "take the soldiers who were in combat who committed suicide, then compare it to the soldiers who've been in combat who DID NOT commit suicide."

That's in nearly every study you care to look at. You are simply described a particular suicide rate. For veterans now actively serving and recently discharged, it is now somewhere between 18.7 to 20.8 per per 100,000- So among a group of half a million veterans, about 100 have suicided and 4,900 have not. Troubling, but more troubling is the increased rate compared with both the general population and compared with those of previous conflicts.

For Americans in general, the suicide rate is around 9 per 100,000. Among half a million Americans in the general population, there are about 45 suicides.

For Vietnam veterans, the suicide rate has been around 15 per 100,000, or 75 in one half-million- Lower than what is becoming apparent for the present generation of veterans. During the Vietnam war, the suicide rate among service personnel was not appreciably higher than that of the general population- Veteran suicides peaked after the Vietnam war, which is also an ominous difference with the Iraq/Afghanistan numbers.

You can't possibly have attentively watched the CBS Video and remain so dismissive. Nor can you sincerely read the results of this investigation and remain so dismissive. Veterans have at least twice the suicide rate of Americans in general. While the suicide rate among the general population was 8.9 per 100,000, the level among veterans was between 18.7 and 20.8 per 100,000. That isn't normal. To gauge how abnormal this is, we have to look beyond VA data, because the US Government is actively suppressing such information.

Consider a study by the Association of Military Surgeons showing suicide rates among Swedish peacekeeping troops to be lower than those of the general population. Bear in mind that The CDC reported lower suicide rates for Vietnam Veterans (1.7x that of American population) There is something clearly going on with US Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, that is certainly not par for the course in peacekeeping duties or even major combat deployments. We can all agree that the statistics are incomplete, but still they are sufficient to identify an epidemic. We don't need perfect statistical agreements to see that the we have a serious problem among our latest generation of American combat vets. There is certainly cause for a closer look, and for better care for our returning vets, many of whom may become victims of both official and public negligence of the costs of the Iraq campaign.

 

[Baron Max]

Knowing what you're fighting for might make a difference as well.

The soldiers and Marines know what they're fighting for ......their buddies, their friends, their unit,...., not some fancy words on a piece of paper or some politicians speech.

Baron Max

 

[hypewaders]

...just like every other fighter in those mean streets -except the Iraqis are also fighting for their streets.

 

[Mr. G]

So you think you know of what you speak, I spent Twenty years in service, and I have never seen any massacre as you described by U.S. Troops, Any Massacre alleged or factual were investigated, and if found factual, were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ.

In combat, civilians die, there is nothing you can do so it doesn't happen, especially when the enemy chooses to fight from the cover of civilian homes, and not wear a distinctive uniform.

But the interesting thing that you need to understand is that, all of the PTSD veterans I know, what causes them the most problems is the fact that they couldn't save some one, be it a buddy and fellow trooper, or a civilian that got caught in the fight, the thing that drives our PTSD is the fact that we survived, and our friends died, and we could not save them, that even at the cost of our lives we could not save them, we would rather have saved them at the cost of our lives, than let them die.

What I had to learn, and considerable cost to my soul is that in war people die, and that I couldn't change that fact, and that I couldn't save everyone that was in danger, that the best I could do, was what I could do, and survive to go home, to forgive myself for the fact that I couldn't save all.

Thank you for your service on behalf of our country, our families and me.

Thank you.

 

[Mr. G]

Thank you for liberating the Vietnamese from er, whatever it was you went to liberate them from. The Americans can sleep safer at night knowing the Viets are liberated.

Hope the trauma and PTSD was worth it.

What a vile and profane thing to think, let alone say.

You deserve to be you--persona non grata.

 

[Echo3Romeo]

I missed this post but wanted to respond to it anyway:

But the interesting thing that you need to understand is that, all of the PTSD veterans I know, what causes them the most problems is the fact that they couldn't save some one, be it a buddy and fellow trooper, or a civilian that got caught in the fight, the thing that drives our PTSD is the fact that we survived, and our friends died, and we could not save them, that even at the cost of our lives we could not save them, we would rather have saved them at the cost of our lives, than let them die.

What I had to learn, and considerable cost to my soul is that in war people die, and that I couldn't change that fact, and that I couldn't save everyone that was in danger, that the best I could do, was what I could do, and survive to go home, to forgive myself for the fact that I couldn't save all.

Survivor guilt is the worst possible kind, and in my experience it only gets worse with command responsibility. It is bad enough to have one of your brothers go down next to you and you come away unscathed, but when one of the men under your command ends up a casualty, you can't help but wonder if there was some better way. There are things I know I'll never stop second guessing. As a platoon and company commander, I have counseled umpteen corporals and sergeants who have come to me with the same concerns - survivor guilt from a command position - and I keep telling them the same thing you said: warfighting is a horrific business in which death is a constant presence. The manner with which death finds its victims is chaotic and unjust. There is no way to rationalize it, or appeal to it. Nothing will bring those people back. All we can do is be thankful that such people lived, be honored to have served with them, and ensure that their stories are told so that they are remembered after their death.

This is from page 324 of Bing West's superb book No True Glory: A Frontline Account for the Battle for Fallujah.

In The Iliad, a warrior in the front ranks turned to his companion and said, "Let us win glory for ourselves, or yield it to others." For Greek warriors, there was no true glory if they were not remembered afterward in poem or song. There will be no true glory for our soldiers in Iraq until they are recognized not as victims, but as aggressive warriors. Stories of their bravery deserved to be recorded and read by the next generation. Unsung, the noblest deed will die.

West was embedded with us (3/1 Marines) in the fall of 2004 when we finally cleared that place out. My ANGLICO detachment humped in with 3/1 (we were their CAS liason), and I got to know Mr. West personally. He's a Marine from your era, and his son is a Marine from mine. I have an unending amount of respect for Mr. West. He risked his life to hump with us. The second night of the November offensive, he was in the house we decided to sleep in. As we broke out some chow, a young LCpl asked him why he wanted to be up front with us, and not write his book from the regimental CP like most of the embedded authors did, enjoying regular showers, hot chow, air conditioning, and high speed internet. He said that he was still a Marine, and that his mission was to collect as many of our stories as possible so that they would be remembered. He told the LCpl that when we rotated back to the US, every one of us would find ourselves doing the same thing. He was right.

I have always tried to ensure that the men who gave their lives with me were remembered as they would want to be; as loyal servants to our country, our Corps, and to each other. Every time I am able to recount their deeds to another it helps alleviate some of that survivor guilt, be it a journalist or just some guy on an airplane. I don't think the guilt will ever be completely gone, but I have learned to become more at peace with it.

 

[spidergoat]

Some of the deleted posts may have had some merit, and I'm sorry if anyone feels they were deleted in error, it's too much to sort out. Please try to keep it somewhat close to the topic at hand.
Thanks,
SG

 

[hypewaders]

Could we have clarification of exactly what will be censored for intolerable straying from topic? Is it war crimes, or criticism of war crimes; is it criticism of glorification of unjust war; is the whitewashing and glorification of wrongful war also off-topic here? Should we steer clear of controversy in exploring the aftermath of a war that claims more participant suicides than others?

I'm honestly unclear about how these issues are divorced from the factors leading to GI suicide. Institutional and public avoidance from facing up to past depravities are obvious contributors to the psychological isolation of so many combat veterans. It's hard to recall just what was said in this thread now, but there seemed to have been regular topical acknowledgement of the victimization of troops by a society that perpetrated wrongful war, even in the act of heroic whitewashing after the fact. There was some personal attacking against Sam, but not really of an unusual vehemence.

I thought it was significant when a familiar glorification of Vietnam service was responded to by S.A.M. with a reality-check as to the particular nature and perceptions of that war. In the psychological aftermath of particularly ugly and lost wars, it is not only the societal neglect, not only our haste to change the subject, but also ostensibly comforting bromides that are taking their toll in preventing veterans from coming to terms, along with their society.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I thought it was significant when a familiar glorification of Vietnam service was responded to by S.A.M. with a reality-check as to the particular nature and perceptions of that war. In the psychological aftermath of particularly ugly and lost wars, it is not only the societal neglect, not only our haste to change the subject, but also ostensibly comforting bromides that are taking their toll in preventing veterans from coming to terms, along with their society.

What glorification? There was no glory in Vietnam, people like you stole what little glory that can be gained in war by your actions.

What I try to talk about is the Honor of fellow Troopers, who serve and do their best with what we are assigned to do at the direction of our country.

The Honor that don't allow you to leave your buddy no matter how bad the situation gets.

The Honor of that goes with serving with people who like you do their absolute best to bring you out alive just as you do your god dammed level best to bring them out alive.

The Honor of not back stabbing your fellow service men because it is politically expedient to do so.

The Honor of being in the company of such men for a small part of you life.

The Honor of giving Respect due to those who Serve, are Wounded in body and soul, and Killed in service of their Country.

Honor above all.

You Hypewaders are not one of those men, and SpAM is on a lower scale than even you, she support the terror of her brother Moslems, and fails to denounce them unequivocally, more Moslems are killed by Moslems Terrorist them are were ever killed by the U.S. forces.

 

[S.A.M.]

more Moslems are killed by Moslems Terrorist them are were ever killed by the U.S. forces.

The only terrorists in the world right now were all brought to power by the US.

And your honor means nothing to Kim Phuc.

 

[countezero]

What a completely stupid statement. The US did not empower or enable groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah or Al Qaeda. Please, Sam. Find a book, read and learn something before you bother us with such idiocy.

 

[S.A.M.]

What a completely stupid statement. The US did not create Hezbollah or Al Qaeda. Please, Sam. Find a book, read and learn something before you bother us with such idiocy.

I think it was the US that vetoed (several times) UN action when Israel invaded Lebanon and occupied it for 18 years.

I also remember that it was the US that trained the Mujahideen, of which Osama was a member, and then after using them, left them to terorrise the countries around them. Al Qaeda came into being for the sole purpose of resisting US military actions in the ME, if you believe Osama's taped declarations.