And when provoked, the Muslim murders? Is that acceptable to you?
Iran trys to get holland to ban dutch mp's film about the "violence provoking koran"
- Thread starter vincent
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And when provoked, the Muslim murders? Is that acceptable to you?
Oh and RE provocation
Yeah, that's right. A lot of art is made provocative on purpose - sometimes the artist is simple asking people to think. Why is their a Piss Christ? Was it so that people were meant to stand back as say: Hey... why do I ascribe such feelings and emotions to this act of pissing on a statue of Christ?
Perhaps if there were a Christ, She may even think "Good on you".
In the past making a painting where the King was anything other than God's representative on Earth was grounds for death - slowly artists pushed the envelop and things changed.
As for the Dutch movie - maybe it's complete crap. Or maybe it's part crap. Maybe he has a couple good points in all that crap. Maybe the Qur'an is in some respects facious? Ever think that maybe there are some passages in the Qur'an that are bad? Maybe this notion that "I AM correct and you MUST be wrong" is Oooo I don't know - a bad way to think?
Watch the movie and refute the points. I'm sure you're eyes will not melt any more than a Xians melting upon seeing that post of Chirst being pissed on.
Michael
Yeah, that's right. A lot of art is made provocative on purpose - sometimes the artist is simple asking people to think. Why is their a Piss Christ? Was it so that people were meant to stand back as say: Hey... why do I ascribe such feelings and emotions to this act of pissing on a statue of Christ?
Perhaps if there were a Christ, She may even think "Good on you".
In the past making a painting where the King was anything other than God's representative on Earth was grounds for death - slowly artists pushed the envelop and things changed.
As for the Dutch movie - maybe it's complete crap. Or maybe it's part crap. Maybe he has a couple good points in all that crap. Maybe the Qur'an is in some respects facious? Ever think that maybe there are some passages in the Qur'an that are bad? Maybe this notion that "I AM correct and you MUST be wrong" is Oooo I don't know - a bad way to think?
Watch the movie and refute the points. I'm sure you're eyes will not melt any more than a Xians melting upon seeing that post of Chirst being pissed on.
Michael
Oh yes and one last thing RE: provocation
This should serve as a reminder of just how f*cking hard it was and how bad thing had gotten in Europe for people that they were able to (a) move past God and into Enlightenment and (b) move past Kings and into Democracy. At every step of the way many good Xian people felt it was as wrong then to do those two things as many Muslim people think it is wrong to point out flaws in the Qur'an (of which there are for some people - like me, I think the book it fundamentally flawed, that's my personal opinion, mayeb there are some good rehashed points, but that's besides the point, I should have the freedom in my country to say hey I think this is stupid or etc...).
Many people back 500 years ago felt the same way as Muslims feel now.
As to the movie - probably it does have some points to make - but these will probably be drowned out in the overall hate. I think this hate is actually the fear of Holland becoming anything remotely close to the ME. Fair enough. Fear = Hate.
However, the picture by Van Gogh is a different manner. He was an artist trying to make a point. This is what artists do. This is why art, Opera, Ballet, scultor, painting, etc.. are all associated with the Rebirth and Enlightnement and this may also by why some forms of art are prohibited in Islamic countries. Human form for example, representation of Mohammad, etc... We can not allow ourselves to be inteimidated into not showing films like that. Or cartoons that make fun of Mohammad - anymore than we can ban piss Christ. Some people WILL be offended - that's too bad. Deal with it - - -peacefully. Certainly don't already start making exscuses for them! KNowing they will act violently should tell you something. That one could ALREADY (before the violence) try to excuse their actions should also tell you something about yourself.
We can not bring the ME into the modern era. Maybe they'll never progress here. That's OK. We can live with that. It's fine. There should always be some places on the Earth that serve as a reminder to the rest of us. But, we can not allow ourselves to be dragged back into the past either.
This is why I really think education of history and of religous history inparticular is very imporant to maintain what was hard-fought and won freedoms we have.
take another look at that Piss Christ - see anthing in all that piss???
Just a thought,
Michael
This should serve as a reminder of just how f*cking hard it was and how bad thing had gotten in Europe for people that they were able to (a) move past God and into Enlightenment and (b) move past Kings and into Democracy. At every step of the way many good Xian people felt it was as wrong then to do those two things as many Muslim people think it is wrong to point out flaws in the Qur'an (of which there are for some people - like me, I think the book it fundamentally flawed, that's my personal opinion, mayeb there are some good rehashed points, but that's besides the point, I should have the freedom in my country to say hey I think this is stupid or etc...).
Many people back 500 years ago felt the same way as Muslims feel now.
As to the movie - probably it does have some points to make - but these will probably be drowned out in the overall hate. I think this hate is actually the fear of Holland becoming anything remotely close to the ME. Fair enough. Fear = Hate.
However, the picture by Van Gogh is a different manner. He was an artist trying to make a point. This is what artists do. This is why art, Opera, Ballet, scultor, painting, etc.. are all associated with the Rebirth and Enlightnement and this may also by why some forms of art are prohibited in Islamic countries. Human form for example, representation of Mohammad, etc... We can not allow ourselves to be inteimidated into not showing films like that. Or cartoons that make fun of Mohammad - anymore than we can ban piss Christ. Some people WILL be offended - that's too bad. Deal with it - - -peacefully. Certainly don't already start making exscuses for them! KNowing they will act violently should tell you something. That one could ALREADY (before the violence) try to excuse their actions should also tell you something about yourself.
We can not bring the ME into the modern era. Maybe they'll never progress here. That's OK. We can live with that. It's fine. There should always be some places on the Earth that serve as a reminder to the rest of us. But, we can not allow ourselves to be dragged back into the past either.
This is why I really think education of history and of religous history inparticular is very imporant to maintain what was hard-fought and won freedoms we have.
take another look at that Piss Christ - see anthing in all that piss???
Just a thought,
Michael
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Michael, why do you insist on denying my refutations of your false views of Islamic teaching? I have told you why there are different taxed and that thats not forever. Ive told you killing people for their beliefs is not allowed. And yet you keep on sputing your ignorant, refuted views.
The fact of the matter is that Americans would get mad if, as you suggested, someoine pissed on the Constituion and took pics and glorified his act as some sort of freedom of speech. Now, i dont agree with rioting, but I understand where they come from. If that Danish newspaper was going for freedom of speech, it would not have blocked the publication of those Jesus cartoons as they were deemed too offensive to the Christians. Now, thats not to say I agree with publishing offensive material to Christians. You suggest that Sam would be happy if Jesus was shown in that light and I think that she absolutely wouldnt. Jesus is another Prophet of Islam and no Muslim would ever defile him or his name. Muslim countries do care about the sentiments of their population, hence Pakistan banning the Da Vinci Code because it was deemed offensive to Christians. Shame that that enlightened logic and compassion for other people is not yet fully integrated into Western Society.
The fact of the matter is that Americans would get mad if, as you suggested, someoine pissed on the Constituion and took pics and glorified his act as some sort of freedom of speech. Now, i dont agree with rioting, but I understand where they come from. If that Danish newspaper was going for freedom of speech, it would not have blocked the publication of those Jesus cartoons as they were deemed too offensive to the Christians. Now, thats not to say I agree with publishing offensive material to Christians. You suggest that Sam would be happy if Jesus was shown in that light and I think that she absolutely wouldnt. Jesus is another Prophet of Islam and no Muslim would ever defile him or his name. Muslim countries do care about the sentiments of their population, hence Pakistan banning the Da Vinci Code because it was deemed offensive to Christians. Shame that that enlightened logic and compassion for other people is not yet fully integrated into Western Society.
Arsalan, I'm not saying you inparticular. I'm saying some other Islamic teachings and beleifs. Just like some Xians accept there si a Pope and other don't, some Muslims accept some things and other don't.
Many Islamic beleifs are pretty much the exact same as Xian one - while these beliefs are not a danger NOW they sure as hell were 500 years ago! We need to keep that in perspective.
I understand you don't think killing people because they are polytheistic is moral but other people do think so. Those people need to be refuted by people like you. Agreed?
I'll be first in line to depose of an athiest dictator should he try to impose some sort of bullshit athiestic dogma onto my fellow citizens - we're asking you do the same. Take a stand or someone else will do it for you. And when that happens you don't have cotrol over where and what the argument should be about.
If you can anyway.
But, my overall point is we should allow these sorts of movies and then refute them point for point - or if they have a point here and there, think about it. Piss Christ asks people to stop and think. There is nothing wrong with that is there?
Michael
PS: I know many Muslims here in AU who were taught Arabic is God language, The Qur'an is the only true word of God, there are 4 times as many women as men in the World and any national statistics that suggest otherwise are lies, etc... these sorts of beliefs need confronting. If you guys don't do it then you're letting people like this guy do it for you. Which do you think is better? Do you want to be on the back foot? If not then get out there and make a movie!
Yes it is.
Like I said, even the notion of Democracy was at one time VERY Provocative. It resulted in many people having their heads removed from their shoulders.
Michael
Some people may think that way but that doesnt make their particular beliefs Islamic. The fact is that a lot has been done. Lots of debates have been held and fatwas against terrorists issued. But the truth remains that the root of this problem in Muslim countries are parties that are still supported by the major Western Powers. Theres nothing we can do about that. We are doing our part. But people like you make it sound thats all there is to Islam and Muslims and attributing unislamic beliefs to Islam is unfair.
This i agree with. Its also exactly what I will be doing after the movie is released.
More than that, I believe it is the mother of all languages
Why does it need confronting? A lot of people have tried to prove its not and have failed.
Dunno who would teach that.
Iran just threatened Israel again. I despise Iran. I wish W would just nuke their nuke facilities and get it over with.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203283465824&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203283465824&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
Sure, why not? We provoke each other on these forums everyday. No big woop.
So, is it acceptable to murder because you don't like the content of a film?
Do they deserve to be murdered? That IS what you're saying, isn't it?
I get my news from wherever it happens.
There is no excuse for Muslims living in Western countries.
Good
:bugeye:More than that, I believe it is the mother of all languages
It's never good to teach something like this. Actually, it's stupid.
:bugeye:
Does it float? no? OK it's not perfect. Perfect books float didn'tchya know?
(note: Scientologist think Ronny Boy's words are Perfect too - that's equally not true because his books don't float either)
An idiot who dedicated their entire lives to reading the perfect book.
Funny huh?
Michael
Look bud, I'm perfectly willing to tear this argument down to it's roots if need be, but it will still boil down to the actions of violence, no matter how you slice it.
One side can sit there all day long with thumbs in ears, fingers extended outwards, palms swaying back and forth while they bray Nyah, Nyah, Nayh, and the other can sit and laugh. It is well beyond the bounds of rationale or reason that the other decides instead to go over and put a cap in ones ass.
How can this even remotely be an option?
Ya, hence the protests.
Why is it stupid?
Well, unfortunately your criteria doesnt apply now does it?
who? and what would be the point in teaching that?
The JPost is an extremely biased newspaper. Not objective.
That's a good start. But they'll have to do much more.
Because (a) it is most certainly not true. Arabic is not the mother of all languages. Ask any linguist. (b) The notion that one language is better than another suggests that the people who speak that language are in some way better than other people. That their culture is better than other people. I for one think this the wrong direction to travel down.
The 4 women? Obviously this guy was an Islamic apologist - just not a very clever one. Why does the Qur'an advocate 4 wives per man? Simple, because there are 4 times as many women.
Pretty silly isn't it?
But, this Imam has a large following in Australia. It's like the dumb leading the blind.
Anyway, people believe in Xenu for Christ sakes! People believe in flying fairy creatures that make midnight runs through the desert, that the moon split into two peaces - basically people'll believe anything!!
That one reason I think education is a great way to inoculate the general public. When this kid was told there are 4xs as many women - how great would it have been if he had the balls (and the knowledge) to stand up and say: No there is not. You're just making this up as you go along aren't you? The reason why the Qur'an advocates 4 wives is because that was the custom at that time. It isn't anymore and it shouldn't be now. So lets not try to make it out that we should have polygamy because without doing so there'd be not enough men to go around for all the women! That's asinine!
That'd been great
Michael
Just to go back to the Arabic - you see, this is a major fault in what many many Muslims that I know tend to think. It's insidious. This whole notion goes so well with monotheism. "Our" language is God's language. Only "Our" religion is the one true Religion. "We" are superior somehow. This then leads to many convoluted historical fantasies. Everything from Islam was responsible for Opera to Arabs discovered zero.
Like Bin Laden's son said: We must protect Islam for Arabs and Muslims.
not: Muslims and Arabs - ARABS and Muslims.
not: We must protect Islam for Muslims.
It was: We must protect Islam for ARABS and oh yeah ... and other Muslims... I suppose.
Freudian Slip? I think not.
Anyway, if you don't get it or can't get it then don't worry about it.
Michael
I once said to a Japanese girl friend of mine: Holly Shit I didn't realize I was dating an Asian! She quickly replied: I'm not Asian I'm Japanese.
Same difference to me.
Get it?
Awful funny that a Religion that prides itself on supposedly having a Xian like Universality - that such racist bullshit can still be so evident - - huh?
Like Bin Laden's son said: We must protect Islam for Arabs and Muslims.
not: Muslims and Arabs - ARABS and Muslims.
not: We must protect Islam for Muslims.
It was: We must protect Islam for ARABS and oh yeah ... and other Muslims... I suppose.
Freudian Slip? I think not.
Anyway, if you don't get it or can't get it then don't worry about it.
Michael
I once said to a Japanese girl friend of mine: Holly Shit I didn't realize I was dating an Asian! She quickly replied: I'm not Asian I'm Japanese.
Same difference to me.
Get it?
Awful funny that a Religion that prides itself on supposedly having a Xian like Universality - that such racist bullshit can still be so evident - - huh?