Iran trys to get holland to ban dutch mp's film about the "violence provoking koran"

The confrontation cannot begin until the assailant initiates it with violence.

The victim, who made the film, would be held responsible for answering to bad reviews of the film.

Hate-speech is illegal, therefore the "victim" should also be charged with that.

The CONFRONTATION begins when the "victim" spews hatred, the actual violence begins when the "assailant" gets violent.

In my opinion, the heavier punishment should be on the "victim". They caused the problem.
 
Yes, you can.
On the other hand, if you stayed home in yoru own city and made a movie of yourself burning a US flag and mocking people in your movie studio, you would not need a police escort to go grocery shopping afterwards.

Really? I thought the flag laws were:

1) The US flag must not be at the side of, or below, another flag
2) The flag can be taken down during bad weather
3) The flag cannot be shredded or burned unless for ceremonial purposes

And some other stuff.

I might need a police escort, just depends on the willingness of American patriots to track me down. You never know.
 
Hate-speech is illegal, therefore the "victim" should also be charged with that.

And yet, nothing of the sort ever took place, hence your point is irrelevant and is based on your personal, biased, emotionally charged and uninformed opinion.

The CONFRONTATION begins when the "victim" spews hatred, the actual violence begins when the "assailant" gets violent.

You are now moving from nonsense to silliness. One cannot confront when there is only one. Duh.

In my opinion, the heavier punishment should be on the "victim". They caused the problem.

These types of discussions are important to understand the thinking process behind the religiously intolerant. You are actually suggesting that the victim, who merely made a film, deserves a heavier punishment than the assailant who used physical violence to murder him.

You've now gone well beyond any modicum of reasonable or rationale discussion and have entered the void of the insane.
 
And yet, nothing of the sort ever took place, hence your point is irrelevant and is based on your personal, biased, emotionally charged and uninformed opinion.
No, hate-speech was spread, lies were spread, and the video would encourage people into more hatred and provoke violence.



You are now moving from nonsense to silliness. One cannot confront when there is only one. Duh.
Exactly, that's my whole point and that's why the assailant cannot have gotten violent on their own, the other provoked him.



These types of discussions are important to understand the thinking process behind the religiously intolerant. You are actually suggesting that the victim, who merely made a film, deserves a heavier punishment than the assailant who used physical violence to murder him.

You've now gone well beyond any modicum of reasonable or rationale discussion and have entered the void of the insane.

Hold on, religiously intolerant? I tolerate Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, whatever the hell else there is that is respectable. I am also not very religious.

The victim didn't make a respectable film that presented the facts, he made a film encouraging hatred, violence, and lies
 
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No, hate-speech was spread, lies were spread, and the video would encourage people into more hatred and provoke violence.

Your personal, biased, emotionally charged and uninformed opinion. People make violence, films don't.

The victim didn't make a respectable film that presented the facts, he made a film encouraging hatred, violence, and lies

Your personal, biased, emotionally charged and uninformed opinion.

Insanity.
 
Your personal, biased, emotionally charged and uninformed opinion. People make violence, films don't.
People make violence, yes, but something causes them to get angry and get violent.
Unless spreading lies, hatred, and violence is OK with you?



Your personal, biased, emotionally charged and uninformed opinion.

Insanity.

No, no, just common sense.
 
People make violence, yes, but something causes them to get angry and get violent.

And, if we all acted upon our anger in a violent manner, the world would be a better place to live?

Unless spreading lies, hatred, and violence is OK with you?

I have serious problems with the violence part, the rest can easily be refuted or ignored.
 
And, if we all acted upon our anger in a violent manner, the world would be a better place to live?
No, but hatred doesn't help



I have serious problems with the violence part, the rest can easily be refuted or ignored.[/QUOTE]

No, it can't. We aren't talking of simple mockery, we're talking about hate-speech, racism, lies, and propaganda, and guess what that will do? Spread mroe, and then somebody somewhere, some fool, he'll get violent.
 
No, but hatred doesn't help

Violence isn't the solution.

No, it can't. We aren't talking of simple mockery, we're talking about hate-speech, racism, lies, and propaganda, and guess what that will do? Spread mroe, and then somebody somewhere, some fool, he'll get violent.

Then, that fool will be convicted for violent acts.
 
This is an excerpt from an ACLU "Friend of the Court" brief filed on behalf of an Oregon man charged with violating Oregon's "Fighting Words" law.

The brief was filed in State v. Johnson, a Washington County case in which a driver, William Charles Johnson, apparently used some sort of amplified sound equipment to hurl both racist and anti-lesbian epithets at two women -- one of them an African American -- in a vehicle that had moved in front of his truck when the road narrowed from two lanes to one.

Johnson was convicted of violating Oregon’s so-called “fighting words” law, which makes it a crime to “harass or annoy … by publicly insulting” a person using “abusive words or gestures … intended and likely to provoke a violent response.” Oral arguments in the case are scheduled for Jan. 7 in Gold Beach.

The following statement on ACLU’s actions in the case was made by David Fidanque, Executive Director of the ACLU of Oregon:

The ACLU does not represent Mr. Johnson. We find his words racist, bigoted and despicable. We recognize that words can cause deep and longstanding pain, pain that endures, and many people in marginalized communities face such words every day.

But words are not physical violence, and if we allow words to be criminalized -- words with no threat of physical violence, as in Mr. Johnson’s case -- everyone’s right to think and speak freely will be diminished. The Oregon Constitution, in Article 1, section 8, does not allow that, and it is the ACLU’s mission to uphold the constitution.

We did not come to this decision lightly, and we recognize that many Oregonians may disagree with our decision. This is the first appellate case involving a law that we said was unconstitutional when it was passed more than 20 years ago. We’re making the same argument today that we made back then: Speech alone, without a threat of physical violence, cannot be criminalized in Oregon.

It’s important to understand that Mr. Johnson’s case involves Oregon’s Harassment (“fighting words”) statute, not the state’s Intimidation (hate crime) statute. The ACLU of Oregon was instrumental in rewriting the Oregon hate-crime law in 1983, ensuring its constitutionality. In 1989, we succeeded in expanding the law to include protections for people targeted based on their sexual orientation. In 1992, when that law was challenged, ACLU filed an amicus brief in support of the law, and the Oregon Supreme Court upheld it.

Regarding the “fighting words” statute, the Oregon Court of Appeals threw out an earlier version in 1984, and we urged the Legislature to repeal the law in 1985. Instead, the Legislature chose to rewrite it, despite ACLU warnings that the revisions were unconstitutional. State v. Johnson is the first appellate challenge in the 22 years since.

Mr. Johnson was convicted of a crime that consists of words alone without requiring a showing that he made any threat of physical violence himself. Had he threatened physical violence, his actions could -- and should -- have been prosecuted as a hate crime under Oregon’s Intimidation law. But the “fighting words” law is constitutionally flawed and should be overturned.
http://www.aclu-or.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Lit_main_tp

As usual, I agree with the ACLU.
 
arsalan said:
Id suggest people read up on the laws regarding provocation.
They seldom apply to movies made in studios and shown in theaters.

Provocation normally requires encounter, at a minimum, and one not sought by the provoked.
 
norsefire said:
iceaura, it could if those movies and videos are hate speech
In the US, such laws don't really apply to movies and the like.

We tend to go screeching on about "freedom of expression", and the ACLU goes to court to protect the Klan's right to parade, and so forth.

Even the terrorist types have to come up with something better than "he dissed my sacred book in a movie somewhere", to get audience sympathy.
 
In the US, such laws don't really apply to movies and the like.

We tend to go screeching on about "freedom of expression", and the ACLU goes to court to protect the Klan's right to parade, and so forth.

Even the terrorist types have to come up with something better than "he dissed my sacred book in a movie somewhere", to get audience sympathy.

I agree.
But I didn't say mockery, I said hate speech

As in, going around making racist comments, encouraging violence and hatred, even making threats
 
In the US, such laws don't really apply to movies and the like.

We tend to go screeching on about "freedom of expression", and the ACLU goes to court to protect the Klan's right to parade, and so forth.

Even the terrorist types have to come up with something better than "he dissed my sacred book in a movie somewhere", to get audience sympathy.

Didn't Imus whatzisname get scrapped for hate speech?
 
I agree.
But I didn't say mockery, I said hate speech

As in, going around making racist comments, encouraging violence and hatred, even making threats

Yes, but you've conveniently redefined the event to suit your agenda, which is the exact problem and which is what the film is attempting to portray, the intolerance of Islam.
 
Yes, but you've conveniently redefined the event to suit your agenda, which is the exact problem and which is what the film is attempting to portray, the intolerance of Islam.

What agenda exists in the caricature of a Prophet or desecration of the Quran?

And whose agenda is it?
 
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