Intelligent design redux

Your replies are starting to sound disingenuous now*, but I'll give it one more shot.

1) Believing in God as a teacher is nothing to do with anything I have written.

2) Many teachers believe in God. But when they teach science they do not teach about God, obviously, because that would not be science but religious instruction. However if they were to teach ID, they would be starting to provide religious instruction because teaching that nature involves supernatural intervention is a religious idea, not a scientific one. This is why the judge decided that ID must not be taught, under the guise of science, in US schools.

3) Citation required: please give examples of these scientists who you say have had to feign their belief. As I said previously, I think there may well be a few eccentrics - there always are - but these will be very few in number, in my opinion.
Sorry you think I’m being disingenuous. I assure you I’m not. I want to know who has taught religious teachings in a science class.

I know what religious teachings are, and am interested to know when and where this has happened.

Teaching “Intelligence” behind complex structures and specified information, is not a supernatural intervention. Again sorry if you think I’m being disingenuous, but it’s a simple fact.
The judge is making assumptions (IMO).

* To be frank, I'm now suspecting you may be about to run up the Jolly Roger as a cdesign proponentsist :biggrin:.
Obviously I see design in nature but that has nothing to do with ID. That merely gave a good explanation of what is obvious to me. And it most certainly isn’t a religious ideology.
So I’m still waiting to see where “religious teachings” are being disguised as science
 
A serious scientist is commonly taken to be anyone who has had research papers published in reputable peer-reviewed science journals. That would probably include but would not be limited to those who have earned a PhD or D Phil in a natural science discipline.
That makes sense.
So it has nothing to do with whether or not one believes there are flaws with, or do not, accept the theory of evolution.
 
So any scientist that agrees with Behe is not a “serious scientist”?

I doubt that even the decolonization of science[1] and its inclusiveness of indigenous and pre-Western cultural "knowledge systems" could help Behe acquire acceptance in the future. Because he has affiliation and transactions with Christian organizations. Christianity was a tool of European colonization and oppression.

Which is to say, if his brand of Intelligent Design was generic enough that regional societies could incorporate aspects of it into some of their community beliefs, it would probably be outed eventually as another species of Western contamination. Might be a different story, though, if he and his ID were an influenced product of Islam, Hinduism, etc.

- - - footnote - - -

[1] Decolonise science – time to end another imperial era

Decolonizing Science and Science Education in a Postcolonial Space

Decolonizing geoscience requires more than equity and inclusion

On the need for an anticolonial perspective in engineering education and practice
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-43952-2
_
 
Sorry you think I’m being disingenuous. I assure you I’m not. I want to know who has taught religious teachings in a science class.

I know what religious teachings are, and am interested to know when and where this has happened.

Teaching “Intelligence” behind complex structures and specified information, is not a supernatural intervention. Again sorry if you think I’m being disingenuous, but it’s a simple fact.
The judge is making assumptions (IMO).


Obviously I see design in nature but that has nothing to do with ID. That merely gave a good explanation of what is obvious to me. And it most certainly isn’t a religious ideology.
So I’m still waiting to see where “religious teachings” are being disguised as science
No, it's not a simple fact, it's ballocks.

There is no evidence whatsoever of "intelligence" behind structures in nature. All the arguments of the ID bunch (a dwindling band these days) amount to futile attempts to show that natural structures or processes could not have arisen naturally. That is merely a dressed up version of the Argument from Personal Incredulity. There is not, and in fact could never be, evidence that any given phenomenon could not have arisen by natural means. The most that could be said, at a given point in human history, is that we cannot, now, see how it arose.

But history and the advance of science shows us clearly what a flawed argument that is. The eye was once said to be irreducibly complex. But we now have evidence for how it arose, not once but several times in the course of evolution. Then the bacterial flagellum was claimed to be irreducibly complex. But now we have evidence that too evolved, from a secretary system. And on and on. Every time a structure is accounted for by evolution, the ID fraternity have to abandon it and find a new example - until that too is accounted for. It's idiotic.

I'm glad to see you mention complex specified information, as that is a key bogus concept of ID. So you are indeed, just as I suspected, a cdesign proponentsist. Good to get that clear at last. Now at least I know who (and what) I am dealing with.

As for "religious teachings", I have told you several times now that teaching that there must be supernatural intervention to account for what we see in nature is a religious idea. There is no scientific basis for it. It is a religious idea, pretending to be science, whose purpose is to predispose children to the idea that there is scientific evidence for a creator God.

Which is a lie and quite inexcusable to teach to children under the guise of science.
 
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There is no evidence whatsoever of "intelligence" behind structures in nature.
No evidence “whatsoever”?
'm glad to see you mention complex specified information, as that is a key bogus concept of ID. So you are indeed, just as I suspected, a cdesign proponentsist. Good to get that clear at last. Now at least I know who (and what) I am dealing with.
Obviously I see design in nature :)
I don’t need the ID movement to tell me that, as it is quite obvious (at least to most of us).

I will refrain from going down this rabbit hole as I can tell emotions will get triggered.

But my point is that the conclusions we make about what we perceive are based on our world view. We don’t need to be convinced to believe in God. We need to be convinced not to believe in God
 
No evidence “whatsoever”?

Obviously I see design in nature :)
I don’t need the ID movement to tell me that, as it is quite obvious (at least to most of us).

I will refrain from going down this rabbit hole as I can tell emotions will get triggered.

But my point is that the conclusions we make about what we perceive are based on our world view. We don’t need to be convinced to believe in God. We need to be convinced not to believe in God
No evidence whatsoever, meeting scientific criteria. As such the idea is not scientific and has no place in any science curriculum.

This the deception the ID movment tried to bring off. They needed to pretend ID was a scientific theory, because teaching religion is prohibited in US schools. So they concocted this pseudoscience in order to get the religious idea of a supernatural creator in under the wire, by claiming it was scientifically justified. Which it isn't.
 
So any scientist that agrees with Behe is not a “serious scientist”?
Read what his own University says about him. He obviously does good work somewhere but on ID.

. From 2005 to 2024, Lehigh University's department of biological sciences exhibited a position statement on its website stating that its faculty reject Behe's views on evolution:

The department faculty, then, are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of "intelligent design." While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.[8]
 
Obviously I see design in nature :)
And we have tried to explain to you how that is wrong. The science community accepted Darwin's theory within about 15 years of publication so by the 1870s.

I have posted statements from the most prestigious scientific organisations on the planet outlining why ID is not only NOT an alternative theory to Darwin but that it is not science, it is not a theory.

There is no debate in the science community regarding the theory.

What you think is obvious is absolutely nothing to do with science.
 
And we have tried to explain to you how that is wrong. The science community accepted Darwin's theory within about 15 years of publication so by the 1870s.

I have posted statements from the most prestigious scientific organisations on the planet outlining why ID is not only NOT an alternative theory to Darwin but that it is not science, it is not a theory.

There is no debate in the science community regarding the theory.

What you think is obvious is absolutely nothing to do with science.
Well, to be fair, there is nothing wrong in seeing design in nature, as a metaphysical or religious idea. Many scientists who are religious believers would say that, in a general sense, i.e. why there is something rather than nothing and why there is this exquisite order in nature.

But any scientist will trace that back to why the laws of physics are as they are, rather than looking for evidence of God clumsily intervening in nature, in effect to break those laws to achieve a particular end. To the religiously inclined scientist, God does not tinker with his creation, as if it were a badly made car. The Creator’s “design” in the cosmos is to be apprehended at a far more fundamental level.
 
i.e. why there is something rather than nothing and why there is this exquisite order in nature.
I think that should be a separate thread as it relates more to physics, fundamental particles, forces, 'fine tuning' and first cause.

ID relates specifically to the Biblical creator of life on the planet, created kinds, human exceptionalism, irreducible complexity and a challenge to TOE.
 
I think that should be a separate thread as it relates more to physics, fundamental particles, forces, 'fine tuning' and first cause.

ID relates specifically to the Biblical creator of life on the planet, created kinds, human exceptionalism, irreducible complexity and a challenge to TOE.
Yes that's ID, but this thread is not about ID per se but about why people believe in God. Trek's original gambit was to do with seeing design in nature, which is a lot broader in scope than just ID. Seeing design in nature does not have to mean buying the ID package of deceitful pseudoscience (though it certainly looks as though this individual may have done that, judging by his reference to complex specified information and his so far unsupported claim that there are scientists who feign belief in evolution to preserve their professional standing).

That's my point, really. Don't forget there is a huge number of religious believers in the science community (Ken Miller is a classic example. Even I, on some days, am another.). Such people have no time for ID but they do believe in a creator God, which implies that, at some level, they believe there is design in the cosmos. By the way I don't buy the fine tuning argument. I think that falls into the same philosophical trap as ID: that of trying to argue there is scientific evidence of God. That's a doomed enterprise in my opinion, as Cardinal Newman would agree.
 
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Such people have no time for ID but they do believe in a creator God, which implies that, at some level, they believe there is design in the cosmos

"At some level" is where I always get completely different answers when I ask those who believe in a god, "what did god create in the universe?"

"What did god design?"

The answer used to be, "everything."

Part of the 1950s catechism my mother learnt.

"Who made you?" Answer. God made me. How does that work? In what sense does god "make" a person?

We know how that works and it is a natural process as it is for every other living organism on the planet.

So at what level? Where does the design happen?
 
"At some level" is where I always get completely different answers when I ask those who believe in a god, "what did god create in the universe?"

"What did god design?"

The answer used to be, "everything."

Part of the 1950s catechism my mother learnt.

"Who made you?" Answer. God made me. How does that work? In what sense does god "make" a person?

We know how that works and it is a natural process as it is for every other living organism on the planet.

So at what level? Where does the design happen?
I think I’ve answered that in previous posts. The order in the cosmos, which arises from the laws of physics. This was Einstein’s conception of God, I understand. From which the “design” , or beauty, that one may see, aesthetically, of everything, from crystal structures to glaciated valleys, follows.
 
I think I’ve answered that in previous posts. The order in the cosmos, which arises from the laws of physics. This was Einstein’s conception of God, I understand. From which the “design” , or beauty, that one may see, aesthetically, of everything, from crystal structures to glaciated valleys, follows.
So god made the rules, rolled the dice, so to speak and the universe just played out?
 
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Define “evolve”.
This is starting to get silly is it not? Do you not know the difference?
The creation stories claim events, animals/moon/ stars in supernatural events are made from anything from meat balls to termites nests.
Events we never ever see in nature. Spontaneous creation from a designer/god.
The TOE main theme is that populations of animals change incrementally over time.
Rather gene frequency changes over time.
There are many other parts to it as it is scientific theory, not just one law or equation or statement.
 
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