Influencing children to become homosexual

Should parents ever try to infulence their children to become homosexual?

  • YES

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • NO

    Votes: 40 95.2%

  • Total voters
    42
D'ster said:

Thats it?
If two "adults" consent to a act or a behaviour thats all thats needed to call any act OK?

I wonder about the quotation marks you put around the word "adults". Psychiatric competency is also a consideration, but what are you thinking?

You realize, D'ster, do you not, that your position right now leaves open the notion that you oppose consenting homosexual relations but approve of heterosexual rape? I mean, surely that's not actually the truth of it, but how the hell do you connect consensual sexual intercourse between people of the same gender with murder, rape, and bestiality? Does consent mean nothing to you?
 
Compassion for the weak is paramount

Mystech ....

You might be banging your head against the wall here. D'ster has shown no capability to comprehend or even perceive the obvious. For instance, from his "Politics Before Medicine" post:

D'ster said:

Those current studies that appear to indicate neutral to favorable results from homosexual parenting have critical flaws such as non-longitudinal design, inadequate sample size, biased sample selection, lack of proper controls, and failure to account for confounding variables.

A symptom of the marginalization of homosexuality. At present, homosexuals are living in a dynamic situation wherein changing circumstances make it difficult to obtain a homogenized snapshot of a diverse community. To check the endnotes, I can't say the Marriage Law Project, the Christian Institute, or the Massachusetts Family Institute and National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality are sources whose veracity I trust. All start with a lack of neutrality, pursuing political ends instead of scientific.

D'ster said:

Childrearing studies have consistently indicated that children are more likely to thrive emotionally, mentally, and physically in a home with two heterosexual parents versus a home with a single parent.

This is a particularly odious deployment of irrelevance. Part of the dynamic situation surrounding homosexuals is increased social acceptance of homosexuality which allows for greater stability among relationships. Drugs, sex, depression: anything forced "into the closet" becomes less stable and more dangerous. At issue is not single parenthood, but stable homosexual relationships. There are plenty of drawbacks to unstable heterosexual parentage, too, but our man D'ster, nor his gurus at the ACP seem to care about that.

The endnotes in this case are largely irrelevant, owing to the irrelevance of the point offered.

D'ster said:

Violence among homosexual partners is two to three times more common than among married heterosexual couples ... Homosexual partnerships are significantly more prone to dissolution than heterosexual marriages with the average homosexual relationship lasting only two to three years ... Homosexual men and women are reported to be inordinately promiscuous involving serial sex partners, even within what are loosely-termed "committed relationships." ... Individuals who practice a homosexual lifestyle are more likely than heterosexuals to experience mental illness ... substance abuse ... suicidal tendencies ... and shortened life spans ... Although some would claim that these dysfunctions are a result of societal pressures in America, the same dysfunctions exist at inordinately high levels among homosexuals in cultures were the practice is more widely accepted ... Children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, practice homosexual behavior, and engage in sexual experimentation ... Adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, like their adult counterparts, are at increased risk of mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.

Violence, dissolution, promiscuity, mental illness, substance abuse, and suicidal tendencies are all symptomatic of institutionalized bigotry. Most of those symptoms also contribute to shortened lifespan. A check of the endnotes suggests a number of troubles, including the "loosely-termed 'committed relationships'"--which are unhealthy for heterosexuals as well, but again D'ster and his gurus don't seem to care--and the use of what are at least tertiary analyses of old data.

As to whether or not children reared in homosexual households are more likely to be homosexual, on the one hand, that's not exactly proven, and to the other I'm not sure what the problem is, aside of course from the institutional bigotry that lends to increased risk of mental health problems, relationship instability, &c.

In the end, to use a racism analysis, if we hold blacks in slavery, outlaw literacy among them, and set an exploitative example for them to aspire to, should we be surprised that there is social trouble in the community upon emancipation, or is it just because they're black?

The ACP and its minions seem to forget that you only get from something what you put into it. If you work toward destabilizing and marginalizing a community, do not be surprised when symptoms of marginalization occur within that group, and certainly do not hold those symptoms as evidence of the inferiority or insufficiency of the group.

That D'ster does not demonstrate such understanding should not be a surprise, either. After all, the ACP doesn't get it, and they're doctors. Both D'ster and the ACP are sad testaments to what happens when one uses science as an exploitative tool in service of a political cause.

We must remember that asking these folks to do real research may be problematic in itself. There are enough secondary and tertiary analyses available that one can keep looking up the endnotes and give up long before they come to the realization that a year-2000 study is based on 1970s (e.g. pre-HIV and received with prejudice) figures. It becomes easier for these folks to say that reality is what they want it to be instead of actually what it is.

Obfuscation and dishonesty are the tools of conservatism. Is D'ster a victim? Can we presume that our associate actually knows any better?
 
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Not-quite ancient history

Recalling Oregon's 1992 Ballot Measure 9, the potential effects would have included propaganda in place of medical education. The campaign pitches essentially made things out so that failing to condemn homosexuality would constitute promoting, encouraging or facilitating. Thus it is possible to read the poll question, "Is it moral to fail to indoctrinate children against homosexuality?"

Curious, indeed.

Disclaimer: None of my prior contributions to this topic have respected the Measure 9 standard, and none in the future will except when I make an obvious point of it.

But really, can we imagine school counselors unable to alleviate a student's (client's) anxieties? ("Yes, Billy, you are abnormal, perverse, and wrong.") Or a medical doctor indoctrinated to lie to a patient? Who would hire such a doctor? (There are plenty who would hire such a school counselor, I know.)
 
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tiassa,

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that compassion is the best policy. But I must be honest: It's very hard for me to treat homophobes — even the self-denying ones — with anything but great annoyance and deep-seated intolerance, for very close-to-home reasons. I do hope that someday I will be able to treat people I find to be idiots more positively, but for now I just don't have the modivation to hold in every last bit of what I think of them.

Oh, and by the way:
That he would rather be seen as a dangerously-bigoted heterosexual and hatemonger than what he thinks might be lurking in his skin is only a testament to what hate brings to a society.
Powerful. I'd read your book if you wrote one.

<Small>(That's my subtle way of saying, "Write a book!")</Small>
 
redarmy11 said:
I'd like to think that we, in the ever-tolerant UK, gave you the idea.
It really is a horrible idea, that. People just refuse to see...

Things certainly would be better off for everyone if better people ran the show. :m:
 
tiassa said:
I wonder about the quotation marks you put around the word "adults".
There are groups of adults that believe that eating fecal matter is OK.

Is it OK?
 
It's their lives. And it doesn't change the fact that they're adults. To the other, it's not just gay men who lick each other's asses and thereby have oral contact with fecal matter. Many heterosexuals enjoy a good rimjob now and then.

To the other, it's high time you ponied up and answered an important point:

You realize, D'ster, do you not, that your position right now leaves open the notion that you oppose consenting homosexual relations but approve of heterosexual rape? I mean, surely that's not actually the truth of it, but how the hell do you connect consensual sexual intercourse between people of the same gender with murder, rape, and bestiality? Does consent mean nothing to you?
 
tiassa said:
You realize, D'ster, do you not, that your position right now leaves open the notion that you oppose consenting homosexual relations but approve of heterosexual rape? I mean, surely that's not actually the truth of it, but how the hell do you connect consensual sexual intercourse between people of the same gender with murder, rape, and bestiality? Does consent mean nothing to you?
Just because two adults "consent" to something, does not make it OK.

What do you think of the votes?
 
The current result in both topics reflects a majority opinion that parents should not try to influence their children's sexual orientation. This is a proper outcome, in my opinion.

Your opinion that "just because two adults 'consent' to something does not make it okay" is interesting. In the first place, what's with the quotes around the word consent? Secondly, you haven't really answered the question. You see, a murder victim does not consent to be murdered; even if we take into account the bizarre incident in Europe a couple years ago, the general opinion is that suicidality is cause to question one's psychiatric competency to consent. Rape is, of course, the antithesis of consent. Bestiality is an interesting conundrum. My cat, in her seasonal heat, will present herself to just about anyone; I don't think she's actually consenting to have a human penis inserted into her. Animals are not generally viewed as capable of giving proper consent to sexual intercourse with a human. So it would seem that your opinion that two adults consenting to something you don't like is a moral offense is, in fact, irrelevant.

So how, exactly, do you connect three acts in which consent is not present with an act between two consenting adults? Are you not prepared to undertake that consideration? Is that why you're avoiding it? Or do you not understand? In either case, however, your comparison still lacks anything approaching rational justification.

Should I call you a "Nazi"? I don't see why. It suffices to say that you are simply overzealous, intellectually dishonest, and apparently unable to comprehend the issues you have undertaken. It would seem, then, that you are not competent to consent to the very discussions you have started. Should I "protect" you, then, and close these topics? Squirrel them away, hide them from your tender, unready eyes? I would be dismayed if that was the case, as I find these sorts of topics monuments to human failing: you have put on display one of the core problems of homophobia--you simply aren't mature enough, intellectually or psychologically, to wrap your head around the subject matter.

The situation is simple: you have made an irresponsible, hateful, slanderous comparison , the dimensions of which you seem either unwilling or unable to justify. If you are unable to comprehend the issues, you ought not raise them. If your apparent ignorance is a ruse, you are simply demonstrating the stupid cruelty of homophobes. The lasting impact of your role in these discussions, at present, is a testament to the homophobes' lack of any reasonable qualification to judge the morality or propriety of human actions and considerations.

And that's the problem with what conservatives call "liberal elitism". If one is not qualified to or capable of making a judgment, how dare we question that judgment? How dare we? How dare you.

Your hatred will poison you. Be responsible: don't go around trying to poison everybody else. Just because you would rather live in a world of ignorant moralism does not mean you should drag anyone else down with you. I know, misery loves company. But so does joy. Come up out of your valley of shadows. We'll wait for you. We'll even help you. And when you feel the sunshine on your face, we'll all be happy for the treasures you have gained.
 
D'ster:

Just because two adults "consent" to something, does not make it OK.

What makes things ok, according to you? If the bible says it's ok? Or what?
 
If it's really a "free" world, then why would you need my consent to have sex with your wife D'ster? And do you have a say in whether I decide to eat some girl's fecal matter?. I don't understand what perspective you're coming from.
 
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