Incestuous Lot

[S.A.M.]

Perhaps you are right.

But we as a collective society do not consider it acceptable for very old men to have sex with very young girls (or boys). Even if teenagers are having sex at 13, 14 or 15 we only think it is socially acceptible if it is with other 13, 14 or 15 years old because they are of a similar mind, maturity and we accept that both experimenting and trying to figure things out. They are entering and progressing through similar stages in life. Turning from child to young adult.

When a 55 year old man "grooms" a 13 year old girl (or boy) he is considered a dirty old retch. We look at it from this perspective: He is using his life's experience to manipulate a young child into having sex with him. In our society this is considered immoral and heinous and thus we have outlawed it. Of course in ancient Greece it was not considered immoral for 55 year old Socrates to have a relationship with a young boy. Different society and different perspective. But, it was still illegal on the books - hence the hemlock. That sort of says something doesn't it?

Anyway, incest is taboo in most countries for a damn good reason. Sure Pharaohs and the like may have practiced it but they were considered Prophets and Gods and the political implications meant they had to keep it in the family. And like I said, from my perspective Lot lied to his daughters, told them to wait here while he went back and murdered his wife. He then drugged and raped them and topped it off by blaming them for seducing him! Which is the typical excuse pedophiles still use to this day.

Who is this Lot anyway? Another YWHA Prophet? Sounds about right

Oh good. Now you should feel better.

 

[Michael]

Oh good. Now you should feel better.

You know, I do a little - thanks

 

[S.A.M.]

You know, I do a little - thanks

Yes, there is a lot to be said for the comfort of socially endorsed morality as against independent conclusions based on "rational" thinking.

 

[Michael]

Yes, there is a lot to be said for the comfort of socially endorsed morality as against independent conclusions based on "rational" thinking.

Thanks Sam

 

[S.A.M.]

Thanks Sam

Now now, don't be like that. Its perfectly normal to have morals based on your social conditioning.

 

[Light Travelling]

The general consensus among atheists on this thread seems to be that the villain of the piece here is Lot, which seems a little odd.

We have a town full of ‘godless’ people who seem to spend the whole time in acts of rape, sodomy and orgies. The only person n the whole town who apparently doesn’t do this is Lot. There are two daughters who are apparently rapists and a wife who cant obey a simple instruction in order to save her life. So are any of these the bad people? apparently no, it is Lot, whose only crime as far as I can see is too drink too much ??

The rape and bugger townspeople (presumably atheists on account of their description as godless) are apparently fine in the eyes of this threads posters

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The general consensus among atheists on this thread seems to be that the villain of the piece here is Lot, which seems a little odd.

We have a town full of ‘godless’ people who seem to spend the whole time in acts of rape, sodomy and orgies. The only person n the whole town who apparently doesn’t do this is Lot. There are two daughters who are apparently rapists and a wife who cant obey a simple instruction in order to save her life. So are any of these the bad people? apparently no, it is Lot, whose only crime as far as I can see is too drink too much ??

The rape and bugger townspeople (presumably atheists on account of their description as godless) are apparently fine in the eyes of this threads posters

*************
M*W: The story of S&G isn't about incest, a disobedient wife, angels, devastation or godless people or homosexuality. What the story is about is man's inhospitality to visitors, or in this story, strangers in town. As the story goes, Lot did welcome his guests into his home, and even offered the townspeople his married daughters so they wouldn't be rude (or worse) to his visitors. The story following the angels' visit to Lot's home, and its destruction, is not truly significant. However, Puritan interpretations have focused on Lot's daughters and his drunkeness, but that probably occured more often than we realize in those times. Even the daughters in their seductive acts were doing it for the benefit of humankind.

In any event, the story of S&G, is a myth. It never really happened. S&G is believed to be located beneath the shallow waters south of al-Lisan, a peninsul near the southern end of the Dead Sea in Israel. Scholars have thrashed this about for years now. Many think it was some kind of underground explosion due to the oil reserves that lie beneath. "Fire and brimstone" has been associated with wickedness, but that is an oversimplification. Archeologists think that this explosion occured around 1900 BCE and could have been triggered by an earthquake. Ultimately, the 'disobedient wife' in the myth is a peak on a rocky mountain in the desert toward the southwest of the Dead Sea. This peak has a name, but is familiarly called "Lot's Wife." The myth has absolutely nothing to do with references to homosexuality.

Scholars believe the story was written down about 500 years after the earthquake, so a story was written from folklore. Professor Peter Gomes states: "To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing." For further reading about the story of S&G please see:

Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The Stories Behind the Rites and Rituals of The World's Religions, by Charles Panati, 1996.

 

[S.A.M.]

That is an interesting reference Medicine*Woman. Isn't there a Roman/Greek story along the same lines? Do you know of it?

 

[Light Travelling]

*************
M*W: The story of S&G isn't about incest, a disobedient wife, angels, devastation or godless people or homosexuality. What the story is about is man's inhospitality to visitors, or in this story, strangers in town. As the story goes, Lot did welcome his guests into his home, and even offered the townspeople his married daughters so they wouldn't be rude (or worse) to his visitors. The story following the angels' visit to Lot's home, and its destruction, is not truly significant. .

I would gree with you that the homosexuality etc is only a side line. the most significant thing from this stroy IMO is that it is one of the few references in the bible to angles incarnating in human form (as oppossed to beings of Light).

There is also the Genisis reference to fallen angels incarnating and siring sons with human women. They became infatuated with the beauty of human women or something like that (which presumably caused tham to fall).

There is also a new testament reference that women should cover their heads in church "on account of the angels". ???

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Making such disparaging remarks of such a great man shows just how immature you are.

hmmm, for telling the truth? thats immaturity in your book? how immature of you!

I cannot believe you are a moderator.

so, are you saying you would make a better one?

First of all, this topic is about Prophet Lot (peace be upon him), not any other prophets.

since when has that hindered you or anybody else from straying off-topic?

Second, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was married to woman who had reached the age of puberty and was eligible for marriage (as is the Semitic custom) [age 9 or 14, we do not know for sure].

to me its hilarious, that Mohammad seems to have put up with being the husband of a rich old woman, but when he finally gets 3 things;
1) Khadijah dies, so freedom to re-marry
2) now rich, powerful military, religious leader
3) opportunity, now that he was a bigshot (pun intended)

so he goes full bore, no stopping him, more wives, the more the better

 

[Orleander]

...
to me its hilarious, that Mohammad seems to have put up with being the husband of a rich old woman, but when he finally gets 3 things;
1) Khadijah dies, so freedom to re-marry
2) now rich, powerful military, religious leader
3) opportunity, now that he was a bigshot (pun intended)

so he goes full bore, no stopping him, more wives, the more the better

I don't understand. What is wrong with that?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

That is an interesting reference Medicine*Woman. Isn't there a Roman/Greek story along the same lines? Do you know of it?

*************
M*W: It's been many moons since I studied Edith Hamilton's Mythology, but as I recall, Zeus had hanky panky with some of his daughters. I don't remember their names.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't understand. What is wrong with that?

Mostly a lot of assumptions. Especially ignorance of the fact that it was Khadija who pushed him into spreading the word, sponsored his causes and that Mohammed was actually reduced to a life of simplicity after living the life of a rich merchant for most of his years. The Hadith is filled with cited instances of how he gave away everything he had and lived a far simpler life after Khadija than with her.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-6.htm

If we compare the life of Muhammad before his mission as a prophet and his life after he began his mission as a prophet, we will conclude that it is beyond reason to think that Muhammad was a false prophet, who claimed prophethood to attain material gains, greatness, glory, or power.

Before his mission as a prophet, Muhammad had no financial worries. As a successful and reputed merchant, Muhammad drew a satisfactory and comfortable income. After his mission as a prophet and because of it, he became worse off materially. To clarify this more, let us browse the following sayings on his life:

n Aa’isha, Muhammad’s wife, said, “O my nephew, we would sight three new moons in two months without lighting a fire (to cook a meal) in the Prophet’s houses.” Her nephew asked, “O Aunt, what sustained you?” She said, “The two black things, dates and water, but the Prophet had some Ansar neighbors who had milk-giving she-camels and they used to send the Prophet some of its milk.”1

n Sahl Ibn Sa’ad, one of Muhammad’s companions, said, “The Prophet of God did not see bread made from fine flour from the time God sent him (as a prophet) until he died.”2

n Aa’isha, Muhammad’s wife, said, “The mattress of the Prophet , on which he slept, was made of leather stuffed with the fiber of the date-palm tree.”3

n Amr Ibn Al-Hareth, one of Muhammad’s companions, said that when the Prophet died, he left neither money nor anything else except his white riding mule, his arms, and a piece of land which he left to charity.4

Muhammad lived this hard life till he died although the Muslim treasury was at his disposal, the greater part of the Arabian Peninsula was Muslim before he died, and the Muslims were victorious after eighteen years of his mission.

Is it possible that Muhammad might have claimed prophethood in order to attain status, greatness, and power? The desire to enjoy status and power is usually associated with good food, fancy clothing, monumental palaces, colorful guards, and indisputable authority. Do any of these indicators apply to Muhammad ? A few glimpses of his life that may help answer this question follow.

Despite his responsibilities as a prophet, a teacher, a statesman, and a judge, Muhammad used to milk his goat,5 mend his clothes, repair his shoes,6 help with the household work,7 and visit poor people when they got sick.8 He also helped his companions in digging a trench by moving sand with them.9 His life was an amazing model of simplicity and humbleness.

Muhammad’s followers loved him, respected him, and trusted him to an amazing extent. Yet he continued to emphasize that deification should be directed to God and not to him personally. Anas, one of Muhammad’s companions, said that there was no person whom they loved more than the Prophet Muhammad , yet when he came to them, they did not stand up for him because he hated their standing up for him,10 as other people do with their great people.

But those are the kind of things that people tend to overlook in their studies.

 

[S.A.M.]

*************
M*W: It's been many moons since I studied Edith Hamilton's Mythology, but as I recall, Zeus had hanky panky with some of his daughters. I don't remember their names.

I recall a very S&G like story with the town being destroyed at the end but I read it maybe 20 years ago so the details are very hazy.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Of course in ancient Greece it was not considered immoral for 55 year old Socrates to have a relationship with a young boy. Different society and different perspective. But, it was still illegal on the books - hence the hemlock. That sort of says something doesn't it?:-p

actually, in pagan greek society, that wasn't an issue, read more history, it was more an issue of apostasy & so-called subversion
http://www.trivia-library.com/a/philosopher-socrates-is-condemened-to-death-by-hemlock-part-2.htm

When Athens lost the Peloponnesian War, conservative Athenians sought a scapegoat. They had long resented Socrates for implanting among the young impiety as well as skepticism of traditional institutions and family importance. They determined to rid themselves of him. Since under Athenian law any citizen could accuse a neighbor of a crime and bring him to trial before the Court of Heliasts, 3 of Socrates' enemies determined to do this. His accusers were Meletus, Lycon, and Anytus, whose son was one of Socrates' pupils. The indictment read: "Socrates is guilty of not believing in the gods in which the city believes, and of introducing other new divinities. He is also guilty of corrupting the young. The penalty proposed is death."
...
Then, Socrates rose in his own defense. "At the age of more than 70 years, I am now for the 1st time appearing before a court of justice, so that I am an utter stranger to the manner of speaking here." As he went on, he said, "If I am corrupting some of the young men, and have corrupted others, surely some of those who are now grown up, and have come to know that when young they received bad advice from me, ought now to appear in court to accuse me and have me punished."

 

[Fugu-dono]

It does however make for laughable entertainment on Jerry Springer and shows hat similar. Keeping it in the family shananigans will never die. While I somewhat understand the excuses royalties made to incest in the past, I can't stop laughing at these morons who don't seem to look far from the shore at all nowadays.

It's truely sad to think that there are probably exist such place with population of 1000, all one family. Talk about uneducated hicks. Hahaha...

 

[Orleander]

The Amish here are feelings the affects of inbreeding. Its not incest, but lack of new genetic material.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

When a 55 year old man "grooms" a 13 year old girl (or boy) he is considered a dirty old retch. We look at it from this perspective: He is using his life's experience to manipulate a young child into having sex with him. In our society this is considered immoral and heinous and thus we have outlawed it. O

whoa nelly!!! I'm finding more about islam all the time, here's a small peek:

http://www.globalgayz.com/g-afghanistan.html
Gay Afghanistan, After the Taliban.
Homosexuality as Tradition
Intro: With the fall of the Taliban government and its inhumane restrictions on normal life (including homosexual favoritism), old sexual traditions have re-surfaced as Afghanistan rebuilds its shattered culture. Two recent news reports form the main body of this story, one from the 'Los Angeles Times' (April 2002) and the other from the 'Washington Blade' (December 2001). Two more similar stories about the recurrence of Pashtun homosexuality, from the New York Times (February 2002) and Times of London (January 2002)
…
A thoughtful reader who engages in cross-cultural studies will not get far before they discover what many western lesbigay people already know about the indigenous and hidden homosexual tradition practiced, in local varieties, by countless unmarried and married men in Arab/Muslim countries.

In these cultures, homosexual activity serves as a temporary (yet valid and important) proxy stage of growth between puberty and marriage. Since there is varying but distinct social separation of the genders in these Muslim states, teen/young adult men develop special friendships and informal partnerships with other males, some older, some younger.

http://www.eyeweekly.com/eye/issue/issue_05.16.02/columns/feelings.php
Homos in high places
BY BRUCE LABRUCE
As someone who is in a homosexual relationship with a devout Muslim, I must admit I found the idea of an openly gay, right-wing politician in the Netherlands spewing anti-Islamic rhetoric particularly delicious, especially considering the fact that homosexual expression is commonplace in Afghanistan and other predominantly Muslim countries in Central Asia. Even Karzai himself is not above suspicion. After all, he's a Pashtun, a culture within which the practice of homosexual sodomy is -- ahem -- deeply imbedded. And consider this passage from Afghanland.com:
"Unlike most Afghan men, who marry in their early 20s, Karzai remained a bachelor until [he was 42]. Having a wife was not a priority to him. He was only dedicated to Afghanistan. Family members say it was the final illness of his mother, who had expressed the wish to see him settled before she died, that led Karzai to marry at last, in January 1999."
Hmm. An inveterate Pashtun bachelor and mama's boy who was later crowned by Gucci's Tom Ford as "the world's most chic man." Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.well.com/user/queerjhd/aboutqj.htm
What is Queer Jihad?
Queer Jihad is the queer Muslim struggle for acceptance: first, the struggle to accept ourselves as being exactly the way Allah has created us to be; and secondly, the struggle for understanding among Muslims in general.
'Jihad' is a misunderstood word: it means to struggle, to endeavor. Traditionally, the first and most important jihad is the struggle with one's self, one's nafs, one's selfish desires, the struggle to do good, to be good, to put into practice the beliefs and values we claim to possess. 'Queer jihad' is our own struggle with sexuality, with accepting it and dealing with it, and moving on, but it is also an endeavor to provide knowledge and foster understanding within the larger community.

 

[DiamondHearts]

WildBlue, do you ever give up on your constant spread of false information of Islam or Muslims?

Homosexuality is not common among Muslims in the Middle East at all. Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. Most of the cultures of the Middle East before the advent of Islam also have been against this practice.

To say this practice is common in Afghanistan is the biggest lie I have ever heard. I have been there, i can assure you it is not.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The Amish here are feelings the affects of inbreeding. Its not incest, but lack of new genetic material.

*************
M*W: Hasn't there been some late reports of incest within the Amish community? If they are not having children through incest, and I'm not saying they are, their genetic make-up is not diverse. Like the Mormons, they marry within their gene pool, and the genetic results have been published. (It's been a long time since I've read about it, but mainly it was about the prevalence of obesity among Mormons).

I'd like to know more about Amish genetics.