In the beginning all was perfect?

[okinrus]

You are assuming that Adam did not know what is good through God. Adam could have known good but not known what was evil. For example we know what truth is but also what lies are. So this story was really want to be like gods, to be our own judge of what is good and evil. The judges of Isreal were called gods. See Psalm 82

A psalm of Asaph. 1 God rises in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.
2
"How long will you judge unjustly and favor the cause of the wicked? Selah
3
Defend the lowly and fatherless; render justice to the afflicted and needy.
4
Rescue the lowly and poor; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
5
2 The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world's foundations shake.
6
3 I declare: "Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you,
7
Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall."
8
4 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.


Footnotes
1 [Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel's God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust "gods" (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8).

 

[Jeremy]

God is a bit of a control freak, as long as you love him to bits, everything is o.k. The second you say you don't like him....well that really pisses him off. Oh no, wait, he is all forgiving and ever-loving. So I guess ...no that's not it.

O.k. lets see, He made everything everywhere, because he's God. Then he made us, and made us the way we are. Then tempted us with 'sin', which he knew would tempt us, because he's, well, God. He knew the outcome, because he's umm..God. Then got pissed off at us because we did what he should of known we would do - because he's God. ('bit of a rigged game I'd say)

Or........the bible is a great book of ideas and stories written by men who were deluded into thinking they were writing on God's behalf. It is just a book made of paper. It holds only as much relevance and control over you as you let it.

The first testament especially is at best an anthology of campfire tales handed down verbally for generations before making to print.

Fortunately, nearly everyone has a built in sense of God. No religious interpretation is required. Listen to your soul. Forget religion.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by okinrus
You are assuming that Adam did not know what is good through God. Adam could have known good but not known what was evil.

OK.

For the sake of argument, let's say this is true (even though to know what Good is one MUST know what Good isn't, therefore what Evil is).
Adam knew what good was, but did NOT know what evil was, OK?

So, if he did not know what evil was...
We go back to Cris' original point, and what SnakeLord and I have been trying to get at...

Originally posted by Cris
They only discovered it was bad to disobey God AFTER they ate from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. They should never have been held responsible for their alleged sins comitted before they even knew what it meant to be sinful.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by Jeremy
Fortunately, nearly everyone has a built in sense of God.

You think so?

Maybe you should start a thread on this subject.
It might be an interesting discussion.
I think it would, anyway.

 

[okinrus]

God is a bit of a control freak, as long as you love him to bits, everything is o.k. The second you say you don't like him....well that really pisses him off. Oh no, wait, he is all forgiving and ever-loving. So I guess ...no that's not it.

If you don't recieve his love for us, what else would you expect?

O.k. lets see, He made everything everywhere, because he's God. Then he made us, and made us the way we are. Then tempted us with 'sin', which he knew would tempt us, because he's, well, God. He knew the outcome, because he's umm..God. Then got pissed off at us because we did what he should of known we would do - because he's God. ('bit of a rigged game I'd say)

God does not tempt. He only allowed the serpent to tempt us. No, you should not assume that God knows the future.

 

[okinrus]

For the sake of argument, let's say this is true (even though to know what Good is one MUST know what Good isn't, therefore what Evil is).
Adam knew what good was, but did NOT know what evil was, OK?

So, if he did not know what evil was...
We go back to Cris' original point, and what SnakeLord and I have been trying to get at...

No. Adam knew only the good that God taught him. I see the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil basically as a list of sins.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by okinrus
No. Adam knew only the good that God taught him. I see the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil basically as a list of sins.

Exactly the point.

If he didn't know it was a sin to disobey God (since he had not yet read this "list" how could it be held against him?

If you never tell your child that it is "wrong" to take toys that don't belong to them, and the child takes another child's toy does your child deserve punishment?
He did not know it was wrong, therefore did not deserve punishment.

Am I not explaining this well?
I am not sure why you don't seem to get what my point is.
If there is a specific thing that you don't understand about what I am saying please point it out.

Also, to help me understand your point of view, please explain to me your reasoning and rationale.
Thanks.

 

[okinrus]

Yes God told Adam that "you shall not eat or you will surely die".
Adam knew the consequences of disobeying God's command but still eat.

 

[SnakeLord]

lol its like talking to a chimpanzee.

 

[okinrus]

Better a chimp than a snake...

Exactly the point.

If he didn't know it was a sin to disobey God (since he had not yet read this "list" how could it be held against him?

If you never tell your child that it is "wrong" to take toys that don't belong to them, and the child takes another child's toy does your child deserve punishment?
He did not know it was wrong, therefore did not deserve punishment.

Am I not explaining this well?
I am not sure why you don't seem to get what my point is.
If there is a specific thing that you don't understand about what I am saying please point it out.

Also, to help me understand your point of view, please explain to me your reasoning and rationale.
Thanks.

Ok I'll try this again. When we ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil we received the knowledge of all sins, the natural law. Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve still knew to obey God and not to eat the fruit of knowledge, because God gave them this knowledge. You are incorrect on your assumption that Adam did not have any knowledge of good or evil before eating. God did not want Adam to be able to judge what was right or wrong, but wanted us to bring everything to him. Once Adam ate the fruit, they were like judges or gods. (psalm 82)

 

[okinrus]

In case anyone likes any stories about chimps...
http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/special/ramayana/RAMA.html

Then we shall punish him. Set his tail on fire. Let him return home that way," Ravana declared.

As the king's men wrapped Hanuman's tail in cloth to set it on fire he grew it longer and longer. The more they wrapped, the longer Hanuman grew his tail. Finally, Ravana ordered, "Set it on fire!" cried Ravana.

With his long tail on fire, Hanuman flew into the sky. He decided to set the city of Lanka ablaze to punish Ravana. He flew low over the city and set each building, temple, palace and garden on fire. Flames shot high into the sky. As he flew over Asoka garden he made sure Sita was safe. Then before he headed home, he put his tail in the ocean to put out the fire.

 

[SnakeLord]

When we ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil we received the knowledge of all sins

So.. before eating the fruit he had no knowledge of sins, because as you said: when he ate the fruit he received knowledge of all sins.

Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve still knew to obey God and not to eat the fruit of knowledge, because God gave them this knowledge.

But at this stage like YOU said, they wouldn't have any knowledge of sins, and thus they wouldn't know it's a sin to eat the fruit.

You are incorrect on your assumption that Adam did not have any knowledge of good or evil before eating.

How would that be incorrect? The bible very clearly states that until AFTER they had eaten the fruit they had no knowldge of good or evil. AFTER eating the fruit god says "Man has NOW become like one of us- KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."

It remains you have nothing to support your wild assumption that they did know.

God did not want Adam to be able to judge what was right or wrong

So if adam wasn't able to judge what was right or wrong how would he know not to eat the fruit? It would not be wrong to eat the fruit because adam wouldn't know wtf wrong meant.

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

Once Adam ate the fruit, they were like judges or gods.

"Man has NOW become like one of us- KNOWING good and evil"

P.S You seem to have a very lowly opinion of snakes. Have you ever had any snakes as pets? Have you ever studied the behaviour of snakes?

They are widely misunderstood creatures and suffice it to say FAR from being deceptive. If anything snakes are "full on." They squeeze their prey to death, spit poison in their face etc etc... If you want a creature of deception try something like a spider, some types of fish. There are even some mammals that pretend to be injured and when something comes to eat them they jump up and attack. That is deception- and snakes are not like that whatsoever.

Superstition and folklore concerning snakes is quite rife throughout history- If a snake crosses your path, watch out for false friends is just one of these beliefs. All are completely unfounded, baseless assumptions about a creature the believers know nothing about. You base your whole understanding of snakes on a few simple words in an old book which is as misguided as claiming all bats go round drinking human blood.

 

[okinrus]

So.. before eating the fruit he had no knowledge of sins, because as you said: when he ate the fruit he received knowledge of all sins.

I'm saying *all* sins or at least a way to feel if something is a sin or not.

How would that be incorrect? The bible very clearly states that until AFTER they had eaten the fruit they had no knowldge of good or evil. AFTER eating the fruit god says "Man has NOW become like one of us- KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."

Yes, the fruit contained knowledge of *everything* that is good and evil.

So if adam wasn't able to judge what was right or wrong how would he know not to eat the fruit? It would not be wrong to eat the fruit because adam wouldn't know wtf wrong meant.

He knew exactly what God told him, that his sin would cause death just as it does today.

Superstition and folklore concerning snakes is quite rife throughout history- If a snake crosses your path, watch out for false friends is just one of these beliefs. All are completely unfounded, baseless assumptions about a creature the believers know nothing about. You base your whole understanding of snakes on a few simple words in an old book which is as misguided as claiming all bats go round drinking human blood.

Where are you getting this. Didn't I say that demons were serpents, not biological serpents of course.

 

[SnakeLord]

I'm saying *all* sins or at least a way to feel if something is a sin or not.

Lol, you do try and grasp at anything, with absolutely nothing to back up the worthless claim.

One more time... Until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have no knowledge of good and evil. It's not a case of: until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of *some* good and evil! Until they had eaten the fruit they didn't even know what being naked was, let alone what was right and wrong.

Yes, the fruit contained knowledge of *everything* that is good and evil.

Until they had eaten it they wouldn't have any knowledge of good or evil, which is why god says: "man has now become like one of us knowing good and evil." Which clearly shows before that time they were unlike them [the gods?] because they didn't know good and evil. Your baseless assumptions that they had some knowledge is completely unsubstantiated.

He knew exactly what God told him, that his sin would cause death just as it does today.

Not at all. god said he would surely die, the serpent said he would surely not die. With absolutely NO means by which to differentiate which is the correct one to listen to he has made no fault.

Furthermore death today is caused by many things other than 'sin'. Old age, to name but one.

not biological serpents of course.

Oh? Pretend ones then?

 

[okinrus]

Not at all. god said he would surely die, the serpent said he would surely not die. With absolutely NO means by which to differentiate which is the correct one to listen to he has made no fault.

Furthermore death today is caused by many things other than 'sin'. Old age, to name but one.

No. Death to the soul.

One more time... Until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have no knowledge of good and evil. It's not a case of: until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of *some* good and evil! Until they had eaten the fruit they didn't even know what being naked was, let alone what was right and wrong.

You assumption is wrong, God told them that eating the fruit would cause death. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was the full knowledge of good and evil. Before eating the fruit, man only recieved there knowledge of what was good from God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not the concept of goodness which is God.

Anyways try to read
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#I
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#II
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#III
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#IV

 

[Cris]

Okinrus,

God told them that eating the fruit would cause death.

How would they have known what death meant and that it was bad? They were the first people and no one had died at that point.

 

[SnakeLord]

No. Death to the soul

Oh... so if a guy physically dies of old age... the soul goes on to sin and die from that sin? Or does the soul die when the body dies? If a soul dies when the body dies, then if a man dies of old age- so does the soul. If you then proceed to tell me that sinless peoples souls do not die but go up to heaven then does that mean sinful peoples souls do die? If they're dead what difference would it make if they burn in hell for eternity? They're dead, after all.

In conclusion it would seem that either way you look at it, the soul does not die. Thus any physical being who dies, doesn't neccesarily die from sin as i said.

In essence: sinful or sinless, your soul would still live forever, albeit in a different environment.

You assumption is wrong, God told them that eating the fruit would cause death. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was the full knowledge of good and evil. Before eating the fruit, man only recieved there knowledge of what was good from God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not the concept of goodness which is God.

My "assumption" is based upon evidence written in your bible. You, instead seem to feel the need to shoot off on a tangent spouting unrelated and highly questionable support material, mainly non-existant support material.

Most class the serpent as a liar, in fact: "The father of lies" but how much of a liar was he?

He said: "when you eat of it you shall become like god."

Straight after, god says: "Man has now become like one of us."

Simply put, the serpent was telling the truth. If we conclude that souls do not die, they just either go to heaven or hell, then the serpent was also telling the truth by saying they would not die.

Of course it would still be impossible for adam to weigh up the situation because until AFTER he had eaten the fruit he would have had no knowledge of good and evil. As stated very damn clearly by god himself.

 

[okinrus]

Oh... so if a guy physically dies of old age... the soul goes on to sin and die from that sin? Or does the soul die when the body dies? If a soul dies when the body dies, then if a man dies of old age- so does the soul. If you then proceed to tell me that sinless peoples souls do not die but go up to heaven then does that mean sinful peoples souls do die? If they're dead what difference would it make if they burn in hell for eternity? They're dead, after all.

In conclusion it would seem that either way you look at it, the soul does not die. Thus any physical being who dies, doesn't neccesarily die from sin as i said.

In essence: sinful or sinless, your soul would still live forever, albeit in a different environment.

Biological death is the seperation of the soul and the body. The spiritual death is seperation of the soul from God. Indirectly all of mankind dies because of Adam's fall.

How would they have known what death meant and that it was bad? They were the first people and no one had died at that point.

God is able to speak directly to the heart. I'm sure God might have been able to show them a vision of themselves dying.

My "assumption" is based upon evidence written in your bible. You, instead seem to feel the need to shoot off on a tangent spouting unrelated and highly questionable support material, mainly non-existant support material.

No it's not. God said that his creation was good and Adam knew his creation and so they knew goodness from God.

Most class the serpent as a liar, in fact: "The father of lies" but how much of a liar was he?

"You shall not surely died" this contradicts God's "You shall surely die".

 

[SnakeLord]

Indirectly all of mankind dies because of Adam's fall.

How convenient to blame a guy several eons ago for the death of everyone. I wonder, would that include my son who died while still in his mothers womb? He didn't get the chance to hear about jesus, nor to choose right from wrong.. tell me... did he sin because he was kicking his mother? It's adams fault! what an asshole.

But then again... It could be my fault because im an athiest right? Didnt god say he'll punish peoples kids, kids kids, kids kids kids, and kids kids kids kids? Shit, im an athiest so my son got ko'd... If i had have known he'd kill my son for my transgressions i would have been as blindly subservient as you.

I have with me the medical explanation for my sons death- but thats just a load of old horseshit and cannot compare to the obvious fact that it's actually down to a guy 6000+ years ago.

You're living in a fantasy world. Next week you'll be having dinner with the munchkins, finding a pot of gold under the nearby rainbow, and growing a pair of white wings with which to fly above the clouds.

God is able to speak directly to the heart. I'm sure God might have been able to show them a vision of themselves dying.

You seem to be clinging desperately to thin air and making it up as you go along. Kindly don't do it, it's insulting.

No it's not. God said that his creation was good and Adam knew his creation and so they knew goodness from God.

god said his creation of plants was good. That doesn't mean the plants have any knowledge of good and evil- unless of course they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in which case god would then say: "plants have now become like one of us guys, knowing good and evil."

"You shall not surely died" this contradicts God's "You shall surely die".

I actually answered this in the last post- somehow you managed to miss it.

If the soul separates from god and buggers off to hell it must to all intents and purposes be "alive" for it to be worth the time burning, otherwise it is not suffering in hell, because it is in fact dead. If souls remain alive one way or the other then the serpent was telling the truth.

 

[okinrus]

How convenient to blame a guy several eons ago for the death of everyone. I wonder, would that include my son who died while still in his mothers womb? He didn't get the chance to hear about jesus, nor to choose right from wrong.. tell me... did he sin because he was kicking his mother? It's adams fault! what an asshole.


But then again... It could be my fault because im an athiest right? Didnt god say he'll punish peoples kids, kids kids, kids kids kids, and kids kids kids kids? Shit, im an athiest so my son got ko'd... If i had have known he'd kill my son for my transgressions i would have been as blindly subservient as you.

I have with me the medical explanation for my sons death- but thats just a load of old horseshit and cannot compare to the obvious fact that it's actually down to a guy 6000+ years ago.

No, he's in heaven not hell. Jesus said that kingdom of heaven was filled with children. Satan is also able to kill with God's allowance so don't assume that anyone is punishing you.

You seem to be clinging desperately to thin air and making it up as you go along. Kindly don't do it, it's insulting.

I'm not being insulting. The story of genesis is not complete and much of it is symbolic.