In the beginning all was perfect?

S

=SputniK-CL=

Registered Senior Member
Well, here goes...

According to Christian Views...

In the beginning...

There was heaven, and God in heaven, and the creatures of heaven, including the Angels of God. I am assuming that at this moment in time ALL of the universe was perfect, for there was no evil yet. Among the angels was one called Lucifer, the Archangel of worship, and he, 'born' in a PERFECT enviroment, thus with no need of anything, became jealous of God and rebelled.

How could this be? There was no Evil to decieve him, to plant seeds of pride, to tempt him!!! Surely he, existing in the presence of the Almighty for eons, could not know of wrong?

Im not sure what I actually want to ask, but for one thing, does this not mean that a bieng capable of choice is inheritantly evil (or opposed to God) even without the opposite influence? If this is so our souls are by default unbalanced and our nature will not allow us to commit to God fully.

You see, we understand Adam & Eve cause they gained knowledge and input from elsewhere. But Lucifer got bad all by himself. What does this mean?

Heaven could never truly exist.....
 
Well, I certainly know that but why would he choose to go against God if all he knew was goodness? I conclude that sin is inherited by biengs with free choice, and having or not having a devil makes no difference....

I dont understand how.:confused:
 
God created Satan perfectly with freewill. Satan had freewill to disobey God.
Click to expand...
This is true! Without free will we cannot choose to love God. God wants us to have the choice in life, and that is what makes him so righteous.

Well, I certainly know that but why would he choose to go against God if all he knew was goodness? I conclude that sin is inherited by biengs with free choice, and having or not having a devil makes no difference....
Click to expand...
I see your point Sputnik!! If no evil existed then where did the evil inherant in Satan come from?? God created it, as Okinrus said, and again, this relates to free will.
 
Sputnik,

Hi and welcome to sciforums.

Nice post.

You see, we understand Adam & Eve cause they gained knowledge and input from elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Did they? They only discovered it was bad to disobey God AFTER they ate from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. They should never have been held responsible for their alleged sins comitted before they even knew what it meant to be sinful.

But Lucifer got bad all by himself. What does this mean?
Click to expand...
Perhaps just like Adam and Eve he wasn’t given adequate education concerning the consequences and meaning of his actions. Or that he was simply plain stupid. But that can’t be possible if heaven is so perfect.

So when Okinrus says –

God created Satan perfectly with freewill. Satan had freewill to disobey God.
Click to expand...
Does this mean that anyone with freewill in heaven can go bad. In which case who would want to go to heaven if there is a real risk of coming up against bad things again. The whole idea of heaven is that evil does not exist.

So I think you are right, if Okinrus is to be believed –

Heaven could never truly exist.....
Click to expand...
Now of course there might be a more deceptive side to God, and we have seen this already in the way he tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit. Perhaps he created Satan deliberately to be evil. But why would he do that?

I agree – your question poses a conundrum.
 
According to Christian Views...
In the beginning...
There was heaven, and God in heaven, and the creatures of heaven, including the Angels of God. I am assuming that at this moment in time ALL of the universe was perfect.
Click to expand...

According to the Bible, in the beginning God “created” the heavens and the earth, not that they were there in the beginning. And why do you presume the all of the universe was any more perfect than it is now?

How could this be? There was no Evil to decieve him, to plant seeds of pride, to tempt him!!! Surely he, existing in the presence of the Almighty for eons, could not know of wrong?
Click to expand...

Your baseless assumptions are on overload, what makes you think evil is an external thing?

Im not sure what I actually want to ask, but for one thing, does this not mean that a bieng capable of choice is inheritantly evil (or opposed to God) even without the opposite influence?
Click to expand...

It means that a being of “choice” can “choose,” whether or not he becomes evil.

If this is so our souls are by default unbalanced and our nature will not allow us to commit to God fully.
Click to expand...

What do you think a soul is?
And, are you controlled by your nature?



Cris,

Did they? They only discovered it was bad to disobey God AFTER they ate from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil.
Click to expand...

How so?
As far as I know, God advised Adam not to eat of the tree, otherwise he will surely die.

The whole idea of heaven is that evil does not exist.
Click to expand...

That’s an interesting concept, where did you get that information from?

Now of course there might be a more deceptive side to God, and we have seen this already in the way he tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit.
Click to expand...

He tricked them by advising them not to eat of the tree or else they would surely die? :D

Perhaps he created Satan deliberately to be evil. But why would he do that?
Click to expand...

LOL!!! Perhaps the satan decided to become evil. But why would he do that?

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Thanks for your stimualting reply Jan, but I beg to differ on a few points.

"According to the Bible, in the beginning God “created” the heavens and the earth, not that they were there in the beginning. And why do you presume the all of the universe was any more perfect than it is now?"

I do not understand your first sentence completely for Heaven has existed for as long as God has, since heaven would be wherever God is and was not created. The heavens (the sky, space) & earth are of our physical universe...

Your second point is very valid and possible, but I presume because of the lack of information the bible provides us concering that reality. I also presume so because in the story of Adam & Eve it is made clear that influence from outside, the serpent, decieves and entices Eve. This implies the reason for sin stems from Satan. In Lucifers case it is not mentioned if he had outside 'help'. The difference in the 2 stories helps me make this very natural presumtion.

"Your baseless assumptions are on overload, what makes you think evil is an external thing?"

Umm, no, you are totally wrong, for if you were to read further I would bring up that very possibillity - "does this not mean that a bieng capable of choice is inheritantly evil". As for my 'baseless assumptions', they are very logical and natural, seeing the amount of info we have about the world of God before out time. Also, I never said I was right, I asked you to assume with me, so as to work to a conclusion!

"What do you think a soul is?
And, are you controlled by your nature?"

A soul is mind, will and emotions.
Yes, I am, for I believe we are part of nature and the animal kingdom and all that it entails. True free will is an allusion. Einstein quote- "a man is free to do as he will, but not free to will as he will"

I agree fully about your points toward Chris -thanks for addressing them.

"LOL!!! Perhaps the satan decided to become evil. But why would he do that?"

In the end you are left with exactly the same conundrum, heh?

Thanks again

"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be."
 
Thanks for the interesting link Okinrus.

"As soon as God gives a command to his creation, there is good and evil. Now the "force of Evil" is different from evil."

Granted. I understand yet this does not change what I said. The need for going against God must stil come from 1 of 2 places, inside or outside your bieng. Mabye free biengs, and this is the way I like to think of it, are naturally curious!!!

"The most beautifull thing we can experience is the mysterious"
-Einstein

Maybe the question is, would Eve have disobeyed God, without the serpent?

This is all very stimulating. I am an atheist though and see this contradiction as enforcing my views.
 
Satan was the most powerful angel but we cannot know why anymore than why we can be prideful.

Ezekiel 28
Thus the word of the LORD came to me:
2
Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus says the Lord GOD: Because you are haughty of heart, you say, "A god am I! I occupy a godly throne in the heart of the sea!"-- And yet you are a man, and not a god, however you may think yourself like a god.
3
1 Oh yes, you are wiser than Daniel, there is no secret that is beyond you.
4
By your wisdom and your intelligence you have made riches for yourself; You have put gold and silver into your treasuries.
5
By your great wisdom applied to your trading you have heaped up your riches; your heart has grown haughty from your riches--
6
therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have thought yourself to have the mind of a god,
7
Therefore I will bring against you foreigners, the most barbarous of nations. They shall draw their swords against your beauteous wisdom, they shall run them through your splendid apparel.
8
They shall thrust you down to the pit, there to die a bloodied corpse, in the heart of the sea.
9
Will you then say, "I am a god!" when you face your murderers? No, you are a man, not a god, handed over to those who will slay you.
10
You shall die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners, for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD.
11
Thus the word of the LORD came to me:
12
2 Son of man, utter a lament over the king of Tyre, saying to him: Thus says the Lord GOD: You were stamped with the seal of perfection, of complete wisdom and perfect beauty.
13
In Eden, the garden of God, you were, and every precious stone was your covering (carnelian, topaz, and beryl, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, garnet, and emerald); Of gold your pendants and jewels were made, on the day you were created.
14
3 With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones.
15
Blameless you were in your conduct from the day you were created, Until evil was found in you,
16
the result of your far-flung trade; violence was your business, and you sinned. Then I banned you from the mountain of God; the Cherub drove you from among the fiery stones.
17
You became haughty of heart because of your beauty; for the sake of splendor you debased your wisdom. I cast you to the earth, so great was your guilt; I made you a spectacle in the sight of kings.
18
Because of your guilt, your sinful trade, I have profaned your sanctuaries, And I have brought out fire from your midst which will devour you. I have reduced you to dust on the earth in the sight of all who should see you.
19
Among the peoples, all who knew you stand aghast at you; You have become a horror, you shall be no more.
20
Thus the word of the LORD came to me:
21
Son of man, look toward Sidon, and prophesy against it:
22
Thus says the Lord GOD: See! I am coming at you, Sidon; I will be glorified in your midst. Then they shall know that I am the LORD, when I inflict punishments upon it and use it to manifest my holiness.
23
Into it I will send pestilence, and blood shall flow in its streets. Within it shall fall those slain by the sword that comes against it from every side. Thus they shall know that I am the LORD.
24
Sidon shall no longer be a tearing thorn for the house of Israel, a brier that scratches them more than all the others about them who despise them; thus they shall know that I am the LORD.
25
Thus says the Lord GOD: When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, then I will manifest my holiness through them in the sight of the nations. Then they shall live on their land which I gave to my servant Jacob;
26
they shall live on it in security, building houses and planting vineyards. They shall dwell secure while I inflict punishments on all their neighbors who despised them; thus they shall know that I, the LORD, am their God.
 
Perhaps he created Satan deliberately to be evil. But why would he do that?
Click to expand...
Because without it there would be no freewill!

(and freewill is neccessary for deciding morality)

Your baseless assumptions are on overload, what makes you think evil is an external thing?
Click to expand...
If God is good, and in the beginning there was only God, then there must only be goodness.

I think you're all missing the point slightly with the apple and the tree thing. The story isn't actually about an apple in a tree, it's about something else. :)
 
The story isn't actually about an apple in a tree, it's about something else.
Click to expand...

Well, the story actually is about an apple (and about Eve, Adam and the serpent). It would probably make more sense though If only people could see beyond the symbols. Questioning the official catholic interpretation of the story would be helpful as well.
 
As far as I know, God advised Adam not to eat of the tree, otherwise he will surely die.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you and i have been through this before. Here goes, (again):

There was a tree, which was the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

This tree would provide anyone who eats from it knowledge of good and evil

Thus, until adam and eve had eaten from it they would not have any knowledge of good or evil.

god said: "dont eat from the tree"
serpent said: "eat from the tree"

Without having any knowledge of good or evil how would adam or eve be in a position to choose good or evil?

It would be entirely insignificant to them. To all intents and purposes, adam could very well have beaten eve over the head with a large stick, raped a few of the local tyrannosaurus rex's, stuck his bum up at god and farted etc because he would not, until having eaten from the tree, have any knowledge of good or evil

Once he's eaten from the tree i can imagine the following dialogue:

Adam: "oh bollocks, im in the doghouse now."

Once they had eaten from the tree god says:

"Man has now become like one of us [?], knowing good and evil."

Which, in his own words, clearly shows beyond any doubt that until AFTER they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they actually had no knowledge of good or evil.
 
Using your assumption Adam had no knowledge of good and therefore no knowledge of God and thus no knowledge of God's command. However Christians believe that Adam and Eve were full of grace. No imperfections of sin and no predilication to sin.
They knew God's joy and his command. And they knew what God wanted them to do because they were taught only by the Holy Spirit, God himself.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Using your assumption Adam had no knowledge of good and therefore no knowledge of God and thus no knowledge of God's command.
Click to expand...

That is a hell of a jump to make.
How do you figure?

Adam knew God because God spoke to him.
But, as specifically pointed out in Genesis, Adam did not know good and evil.
He has no understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
He would not know that it was "wrong" to disobey God.

That doesn't say that he didn't know God.
What do you base that assumption on?
 
However Christians believe that Adam and Eve were full of grace. No imperfections of sin and no predilication to sin.
Click to expand...

Thus, absolutely no knowledge of evil.


"man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

So according to god himself they had no knowledge of either BEFORE eating from the tree. They may have had no sins and obviously without knowledge of evil could not 'want' or 'consider' sinning but just might end up doing so simply because they had no knowledge of what it was.
 
Adam knew God because God spoke to him.
But, as specifically pointed out in Genesis, Adam did not know good and evil. He has no understanding of what is right and what is wrong. He would not know that it was "wrong" to disobey God.
Click to expand...
Adam's knowledge of what was good came from God because God is only good.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Adam's knowledge of what was good came from God because God is only good.
Click to expand...

So when the Bible says that Adam had no knowledge fo good and evil what exactly did it men?

Did God lie when he said, as SnakeLord pointed out, "man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."?

If Adam knew what good and/or evil was, why was it bad for him to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
 
Adam's knowledge of what was good came from God because God is only good.
Click to expand...

Ok, and where did adams knowledge of evil come from? Eating the fruit from the tree perhaps?

If you say it came from god, then, for the third time now, i'd ask why god himself would say "man has NOW become like one of us.." which clearly shows he had no knowledge of such until AFTER he'd eaten from the tree.
 
Back to the original post...

"Perfect" does not necessarily mean "free from all that is negative".

It could have very well meant a perfect balance between good and evil.

The age old argument...
If you did not have evil to compare good against, would good truly exist?

If there was no such thing as darkness, there would be no contrast, no colors at all.
All would be white therefore invisible.
Light would be all encompassing.
Without darkness to define light, light would simply be all there is, therefore not need defining.
It wouldn't exist.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top