In regards to atheism.

[DaveC426913]

Where's the atheist evidence?

Hint: our discussion is with regards atheism.

Jan.

As has been exlained about a hundred times now...

There is no need for evidence of the non-existence of something.
Like there is no evidence of the non-existence of Santa - until and unless someone asserts Santa exists - but they'll first have to make the case for Santa.

Likewise, until and unless someone presents evidence that compels otherwise, the default state is natural (as opposed to God-born).

Were this not true, we would need to simultaneously present evidence of an infinite number of explanations - from pixie dust to being sneezed out of the nose of an Argleblaster - for the universe.

Fortunately, we only need to disprove pixie dust and Argleblasters if someone first makes a case that they exist.

Please stop making the same refuted arguments over and over. It is not helping your credibility.

 

[DaveC426913]

Do you want this thread to close?
Same question for Beer w/Straw.

Jan.

My bet was that it will not be closed.


I am pretty darned certain that you would not complain if it were closed.

You are trapped. Every argument you've made has been refuted (each, of about 100 times you've tried to make them).
Which results in you just chanting the same mantras over and over, without defense or evidence.
The list of fallacious arguments goes on and on.

But you can't stop. Because to stop would be to appear that you lack the courage of your convictions.

So, the thread being closed would mean you could finally stop chanting, yet still convince yourself you weren't soundly trounced into concession.




Please, stay down. This is breaking my heart.

 

[Michael 345]

Proof That God Exists
QUESTION: Is there any proof that God exists?

ANSWER:

Is there any proof that God exists? Whenever this question comes up, I am always reminded of Thomas in the Bible who would not believe that Jesus was alive until he could touch Him. That is the same analogy many people use today when it comes to answering the question “Is there any proof that God exists?” They want physical proof for something that must be taken on faith value.

It takes greater faith to believe that an unseen God exists than it does to just dismiss Him because you cannot physically confirm that He is there. For those who deal in evidence there is proof all around you and inside of you that God does exist.

Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look around. When most people look at the world around them, they see only the trees; they do not see the forest that is there. It should be obvious that God exists because of His creation, not only us humans, but the world we live in, the galaxy that world is in, and the universe that the galaxy is in.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/proof-that-god-exists-faq.htm

When most people look at the world around them, they see only the trees; they do not see the forest that is there.

Well I guess I am not most people

I see the trees

I see the forest

Cute little fluffy bunny rabbits, squirrels, a dead sheep, maggots, crows, a thunderstorm coming

No god yet



Our universe contains too much order for our existence to have been created out of chaos. We are complex beyond our imaginations and when you look at such a complexity, you see God and His creation.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/proof-that-god-exists-faq.htm

Nope

Moon sun stars etc etc

god?

Nope



Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look inside yourself. Most people fail to look inside themselves for God. Instead, they look to their surroundings and conclude that since the world is such a mess, God must not be there, if He ever existed at all. They forget that since God created us, we bear His fingerprints and those fingerprints point to His existence.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/proof-that-god-exists-faq.htm

Looked inside myself

Doctor says I did a good job and the wounds should heal without to much scarring

Didn't see much because of the blood and then I fainted

Fingerprints????? Now?????

You tell me to check fingerprints AFTER I cut my gut open

I had my fingerprints run through the national database

Surprise surprise they do have a few god names in there

None match mine

Tried for a blood match same deal

Thought bubble do catholics have blood type and transfusion matching problems with all the christ blood they drink?



First, we are all born with an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong

Take it as given the reference link is the same

No we are not



Even a young child knows that when they misbehave they are doing something that goes against their parents’ wishes

Same ref

They probably found out about parent's wishes from a smack on the backside



Rambling rambling rambling lots more rambling

End of rambling

Summary

Look around you at god's handywork

See god?

Only see handywork

Oh well guess it was to much to expect

EVIDENCE

 

[spidergoat]

Obviously you're not convinced of something that does not exist as far as you're aware. . But that's not the point. We're discussing atheism, not "Does God Exist".

I've explained, briefly, how I believe God exists. I've gone into greater detail in the past. But this thread is with regards to atheism, a chance to understand what, and why you lack total comprehension of God. And all you want to do is talk about me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm flattered, but this thread is about you.

Jan.

I comprehend God perfectly, it's an idea with no connection to reality. If it's in your head, great, I hope it makes you happy. You, however, do not comprehend atheism, which is a much simpler concept.

 

[Jan Ardena]

There is no need for evidence of the non-existence of something.

If you claim God does not exist, then you should give evidence.

As I'm aware that you are hiding behind "probably", we can dispense with that, and get straight down to honest evidence.

Start a Does God Exist Thread, at least your off topic antics will be appropriate.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I comprehend God perfectly, it's an idea with no connection to reality. If it's in your head, great, I hope it makes you happy. You, however, do not comprehend atheism, which is a much simpler concept.

I don't think you comprehend atheism as much as you think. Plus I think you run from simplicity so you can maintain your atheism.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Were this not true, we would need to simultaneously present evidence of an infinite number of explanations - from pixie dust to being sneezed out of the nose of an Argleblaster - for the universe

Don't worry, you only need present evidence of what you claim.

Please stop making the same refuted arguments over and over. It is not helping your credibility.

We haven't started any arguments as yet, because you keep shifting the goalposts and going off-topic.

God does not exist as far you're aware.
True or false?

Jan.

 

[Sarkus]

Just Google it, and if you come across something I agree with, let's discuss it.

Tell you what, rather than me having to trawl through Google and mind-read as to what you consider a convincing gem from amongst the detritus otherwise on offer, why don't you just post something that you find convincing. That way we can cut to the chase and actually discuss something: why you find it convincing and why others don't.
Your alternative is tantamount to me having to guess, only for you to say "nope, I don't find it convincing either". And given that you know that we atheists aren't yet convinced by anything we have seen, you are asking us to look for a needle in a haystack when we don't even know what a needle is.
You know what convinces you, so you provide an example, please.
Or does nothing actually convince you?

So no, Jan, your request is, as you are patently aware, nothing but a diversionary tactic on your part. Either you are open to having your position scrutinised, as you previously expressed you were, or you are not and you will continue to divert and evade with such nonsense.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I am pretty darned certain that you would not complain if it were closed

On the contrary. I hope it stays open. It's entertaining watching you guys scramble to get the upper-hand.

You are trapped. Every argument you've made has been refuted (each, of about 100 times you've tried to make them).

No, I'm focused on the actual thread itself "In regards to atheism", and do so much want to know why atheist have no comprehension whatsoever, of God.

It was Anthony Flew that got me thinking about the reality of the atheist position, and I've been interested ever since.

All you do is try to shift the attention on to theist. It is as if you don't have anything of substance to relate . That's what I'm observing now.

Which results in you just chanting the same mantras over and over, without defense or evidence.
The list of fallacious arguments goes on and on.

If you were honest, and just admitted that God does not exist as far as you're aware. We could easily move on. But you seem to have a real problem with. Care to explain why?

But you can't stop. Because to stop would be to appear that you lack the courage of your convictions.

I'm simply having a chat mate.
You on the other hand seem to have problems coming clean about your atheism. You don't mind being atheist, but it must be the same reality for everyone (as far as you're concerned).

You even gave "objective reality" that definition "the same for everyone".

Would you feel better about your own position if it were in fact, the same for everyone?

Jan.

 

[Sarkus]

I've explained, briefly, how I believe God exists. I've gone into greater detail in the past. But this thread is with regards to atheism, a chance to understand what, and why you lack total comprehension of God. And all you want to do is talk about me.

Because the easiest way to explain the atheist position is to examine the differences in why some, like you, find "evidence" convincing and others do not. One can not start by examining why we consider there to be a lack of evidence until those who think there is evidence puts it forward for examination. And from there an understanding of the differences can arise.

But no, you shift burdens, evade, divert and basically fail on all aspects of this discussion, a discussion your involvement suggests you to be interested in. Ironic then that discussion is the last thing you actually seem capable of.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Tell you what, rather than me having to trawl through Google and mind-read as to what you consider a convincing gem from amongst the detritus otherwise on offer, why don't you just post something that you find convincing.

Because I don't need to.
Plus that would take us off topic.
I'm determined to stay on topic. Aren't you?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Because the easiest way to explain the atheist position is to examine the differences in why some, like you, find "evidence" convincing and others do not.

No it's not. The easiest way is for ya'll, is to start talking, and stop hiding behind terms, and feeble excuses.

Start talking. The first thing is why do you deny that God does not exist, when that is true?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Proof That God Exists
QUESTION: Is there any proof that God exists?

ANSWER:

Is there any proof that God exists? Whenever this question comes up, I am always reminded of Thomas in the Bible who would not believe that Jesus was alive until he could touch Him. That is the same analogy many people use today when it comes to answering the question “Is there any proof that God exists?” They want physical proof for something that must be taken on faith value.

It takes greater faith to believe that an unseen God exists than it does to just dismiss Him because you cannot physically confirm that He is there. For those who deal in evidence there is proof all around you and inside of you that God does exist.

Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look around. When most people look at the world around them, they see only the trees; they do not see the forest that is there. It should be obvious that God exists because of His creation, not only us humans, but the world we live in, the galaxy that world is in, and the universe that the galaxy is in.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/proof-that-god-exists-faq.htm

When most people look at the world around them, they see only the trees; they do not see the forest that is there.

Well I guess I am not most people

I see the trees

I see the forest

Cute little fluffy bunny rabbits, squirrels, a dead sheep, maggots, crows, a thunderstorm coming

No god yet



Our universe contains too much order for our existence to have been created out of chaos. We are complex beyond our imaginations and when you look at such a complexity, you see God and His creation.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/proof-that-god-exists-faq.htm

Nope

Moon sun stars etc etc

god?

Nope



Is there any proof that God exists? Take a good look inside yourself. Most people fail to look inside themselves for God. Instead, they look to their surroundings and conclude that since the world is such a mess, God must not be there, if He ever existed at all. They forget that since God created us, we bear His fingerprints and those fingerprints point to His existence.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/proof-that-god-exists-faq.htm

Looked inside myself

Doctor says I did a good job and the wounds should heal without to much scarring

Didn't see much because of the blood and then I fainted

Fingerprints????? Now?????

You tell me to check fingerprints AFTER I cut my gut open

I had my fingerprints run through the national database

Surprise surprise they do have a few god names in there

None match mine

Tried for a blood match same deal

Thought bubble do catholics have blood type and transfusion matching problems with all the christ blood they drink?



First, we are all born with an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong

Take it as given the reference link is the same

No we are not



Even a young child knows that when they misbehave they are doing something that goes against their parents’ wishes

Same ref

They probably found out about parent's wishes from a smack on the backside



Rambling rambling rambling lots more rambling

End of rambling

Summary

Look around you at god's handywork

See god?

Only see handywork

Oh well guess it was to much to expect

EVIDENCE

What does this have to do with this thread?

jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you claim God does not exist, then you should give evidence.

You really do not understand logic, do you?

Will you also assert I need to provide evidence that we have not been sneezed out of the nose of an Argleblaster?
Will you also assert I need to provide evidence that we have not been created by pixie dust?

There are an infinite number of things on the list of things that there is no evidence for. And none of them have a burden of proof.

The burden of proof, as always, lies first with an assertion that something does exist.


For the love of Pete, you're in over your head when it comes to logical discussion.

 

[DaveC426913]

No it's not. The easiest way is for ya'll to start talking, and stop hiding behind terms, and feeble excuses.

Start talking. The first thing is why do you deny that God does not exist, when that is true?

jan.

Pretending to be on the offensive is a vacuous, transparent ploy.

You have argued in bad faith for about a thousand posts.
You've repeatedly dodged direct questions.
You've chanted mantras.
You've been refuted over and over, and yet you commit the fallacy of repeated assertion.
You've refused to show evidence you claim is available, yet you are unable to produce it yourself.

You are in no position to demand anything. You have about 400 hundred questions to answer directly before you get to expecting any piece of the floor.

Start with your evidence that God exists objectively, and not in your head.


The original atheist argument is still in play: there is no reason to suppose the objective existence of something for which no objective evidence has been offered.

 

[gmilam]

Just Google it, and if you come across something I agree with, let's discuss it.

Jan.

Is this not the definition of a "troll"?

 

[Beer w/Straw]

The first thing is why do you deny that God does not exist, when that is true?

Qué?

 

[Jan Ardena]

You really do not understand logic, do you?

Here goes..
More obfuscation.

Will you also assert I need to provide evidence that we have not been sneezed out of the nose of an Argleblaster?

No, only of the claim (no matter how hidden), that God does not exist.

Will you also assert I need to provide evidence that we have not been created by pixie dust?

As above.

There are an infinite number of things on the list of things that there is no evidence for. And none of them have a burden of proof.

No one is claiming those things.

The burden of proof, as always, lies first with an assertion that something does exist.

The burden of proof lies with the claimant.

For the love of Pete, you're in over your head when it comes to logical discussion

Blah Blah Blah!
Don't you have any evidence?
I don't see you objecting to Alex's, or Spidergoat's claims, so I assume you accept them.

Jan

 

[Jan Ardena]

Qué?

Pourquoi niez-vous que Dieu n'existe pas, quand c'est vrai?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Is this not the definition of a "troll"?

No. It's me throwing you a bone.

Jan.