In regards to atheism.

[Xelasnave.1947]

I understand that for you God does not exist.

Good I thought you may not know.

Even though you have attempted to expand your conclusion to mean God does not exist for anyone, alas, you are limited to your designation.

I am not too worried Jan I am happy not to be one of those folk I consider to have be conned to believe in a myth. I cant ignore the evidence that points conclusively to concept being made up so as I said I am without the myth of the concept you call God. You can not make God real by insisting others are without God and talking as if God exists does not cause God to exist... If God exists there would be evidence but there is none at all but there is plenty of evidence that the concept was made up by humans in an era when superstition ruled. If you insist on saying of me that "I am without God" thats ok but I feel that will entitle me to say "you are without reality".
Do you have evidence that the concept was not made up?
Alex

 

[DaveC426913]

It is because you cannot perceive God, why you need evidence of His existence.

Indeed. And that assertion is a subjective belief - since each person must make their own decisions about it. And thus it is not an objective assertion. No one can show anyone else their own perception.

Which is why there is no fact here, only belief. And that's indefensible.

You are stuck in a loop, professing the same assertion over and over. In about 50 posts, you have been unable to defend your beliefs as having any validity outside your own perception.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I am not too worried Jan I am happy not to be one of those folk I consider to have be conned to believe in a myth.

I'm happy for you.

You can not make God real by insisting others are without God and talking as if God exists does not cause God to exist...

Equally you can't make God not exist, by insisting God is a myth, and therefore nonexistent.

If God exists there would be evidence but there is none at all

There's plenty of evidence online, you just don't accept them.

but there is plenty of evidence that the concept was made up by humans in an era when superstition ruled.

No there isn't.

If you insist on saying of me that "I am without God" thats ok but I feel that will entitle me to say "you are without reality

The facts are, I'm not without reality, and you are without God.

Do you have evidence that the concept was not made up?

All concepts are made up. So it is a pointless question. I've read your attempt at explaining what you regard as evidence, so we don't need to ask the opposing question.

Jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

why don't you tell me how and why things form out of nothing? Hypocrites

Hypocrites?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

No there isn't.

I rely on the sriptures for my lack of belief.
Alex

 

[DaveC426913]

... you are without God.

Every time you say this, I can't help but picture smoke wisps coming out your ears, and hear
Norman Coordinate. Norman Coordinate!

 

[Jan Ardena]

Indeed. And that assertion is a subjective belief - since each person must make their own decisions about it. And thus it is not an objective assertion. No one can show anyone else their own perception.

That assertion is based on fact, as you often remark there is no evidence, or show me the evidence. Neither is it based on belief. It is also based on the definitions of atheist and theist.

Which is why there is no fact here, only belief. And that's indefensible

See above.

You are stuck in a loop, professing the same assertion over and over. In about 50 posts, you have been unable to defend your beliefs as having any validity outside your own perception.

This thread isn't about me defending my beliefs. It is called "In regards to atheism", and everything I've posted has been "in regards to atheism.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I rely on the sriptures for my lack of belief.
Alex

I rely on atheist for my belief.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Every time you say this, I can't help but picture smoke wisps coming out your ears, and hear
Norman Coordinate. Norman Coordinate!

I bet you don't.

Jan.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I rely on atheist for my belief.

Jan.

I bet you dont.
Alex

 

[Randwolf]

I am not too worried Jan I am happy not to be one of those folk I consider to have be conned to believe in a myth.

I'm happy for you.

If you mean that you are seriously derelict in your duty as a Christian Jan. So, are you lying? Or condemning a soul to Hell?

Mark 16:15
Acts 1:8
Matthew 24:14
Colossians 1:6
Colossians 1:25
Luke 24:46-48
John 15:27

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena:

So "the actual living God" as you put it, is different to the concept of God that you hold.
Interesting.

I'm not surprised that you're still finding it a novel idea to distinguish a concept from the embodiment of that concept.

The concept of an apple is not the same as an apple. One is an object I can pick up and physically interact with. The other is an idea in my head.

Is it so surprising to you that I'd expect the concept of God to be different from God?

The distinction lies in the wording of the two phrases

Everything is a word game for you. I think you do it to try to distract from discussing inconvenient ideas.

I don't think you can make a distinction between God and the concept of God in your own mind.

Do you think I can make a distinction between an apple and the concept of an apple in my mind? Is there any important difference between these two examples?

I think the original definition of atheists holds. Atheists are without God, and as such create a concept of God.

Nobody can talk about God without having a concept of God in mind, atheist or theist. You created a concept of God in your mind just as surely as any atheist did. Unless you think that God magically implanted a concept of himself in your mind, or whatever (and it wouldn't particularly surprise me to learn that this is what you believe).

This explains why atheists always want God to be shown to them.

They want evidence of an actual thing that matches the mental concept. If you want to convince somebody that an apple exists, the best way is to show them an actual apple. Merely describing the concept might dispose them to believe it, or perhaps not.

Some atheist even claim belief in God, due to upbringing, or pressure of some sort, only to come to the conclusion that God does not exist, and they were living a lie.

Holding beliefs that turn out not to be based on anything concrete is a common human experience for both atheists and theists. A random example: some claim belief in the Tooth Fairy, due to upbringing or pressure of some sort, only to come to the conclusion that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist and they were living a lie.

Atheist's almost always use the term "your God/god" when referring to individual theists. This is because they only see God as a concept in that individuals mind.

No. It's because different theists describe God in such different and incompatible ways. It can be worth pointing out that incompatibility.

The more you refer to the original meaning applied to the word "atheist", the easier it is to understand the collective aspect of the atheist mind set.

By "original meaning" you mean your preferred meaning, I assume. You want to impose your meaning onto atheists, rather than letting them self-identify.

So do I.
Now. Do we lack belief in them for the same reason?

Can't say, since you haven't told me why you lack belief in unicorns.

So IOW. Unicorns don't exist, until such time when one can be seen.

We can't know for sure, but there's certainly no reason to believe they exist until there's some persuasive evidence for that existence. (The same argument applies to God, of course.)

If God doesn't currently exist, you are without God.

As are you.

Which happens to be the original meaning of atheist. There's no getting round it.

Why would I want to get around it? If God doesn't exist, should we not accept that reality and move on with our lives?

I'm not the one shifting goalposts James. And the chances are, as an atheist, your concept of God is most likely wrong, because it is difficult to grasp to get a good likeness of something that doesn't actually exist.

When you're talking about things that don't exist, who knows what a "good likeness" would look like?

What's a "good likeness" of a unicorn? Is your concept of a unicorn most likely wrong, following your own argument? As a confessed unicorn skeptic, would you say your concept of unicorns is most likely wrong?

I've asked for examples of things that don't actually exist, and I've yet to get a real answer. Unicorns are made up of other animals which do exist. Dragons are basically reptiles.

God is basically a human being who lives in the sky.

 

[Jan Ardena]

If you mean that you are seriously derelict in your duty as a Christian Jan. So, are you lying? Or condemning a soul to Hell?

Mark 16:15
Acts 1:8
Matthew 24:14
Colossians 1:6
Colossians 1:25
Luke 24:46-48
John 15:27

Why do you automatically assume I'm Christian?

You heard him, he's happy that he's not someone caught up in some myth. I'm also happy that he isn't.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

The concept of an apple is not the same as an apple.

The concept of God is not the same as God.
Okay, we're on the same page.

Is it so surprising to you that I'd expect the concept of God to be different from God?

So you believe God is?

Everything is a word game for you. I think you do it to try to distract from discussing inconvenient ideas.

Nevertheless it is true. You wouldn't say to your daughter going for her job interview : "Sweetheart I know you are capable of getting this job, because I believe in your existence". You wouldn't even think about her existence.

Do you think I can make a distinction between an apple and the concept of an apple in my mind? Is there any important difference between these two examples?

You accept that apples exist, so yes you can.
Does God exist asside from being a concept in your mind?

They want evidence of an actual thing that matches the mental concept. If you want to convince somebody that an apple exists, the best way is to show them an actual apple. Merely describing the concept might dispose them to believe it, or perhaps not.

So if the the atheist depends on the theist to show God to him, then from all perspectives, the atheist is without God, which is all I'm saying. You may lack a belief in mine, yours, anybody elses concept of God, but there is no actual God to lack belief in. Which is the reason why you rely on others.

Holding beliefs that turn out not to be based on anything concrete is a common human experience for both atheists and theists.

I agree.

A random example: some claim belief in the Tooth Fairy, due to upbringing or pressure of some sort, only to come to the conclusion that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist and they were living a lie

I don't think they see quite as intensely as that, and I certainly don't see it as the same thing. I also don't think they literally believe that people's hearts actually break, when someone describes the self as broken-hearted.

No. It's because different theists describe God in such different and incompatible ways. It can be worth pointing out that incompatibility.

In what way are the different description incompatible?

By "original meaning" you mean your preferred meaning, I assume. You want to impose your meaning onto atheists, rather than letting them self-identify.

Are you saying you're not without God?
I agree atheist lack a belief in God. Theists will at times lack belief in God, when we act selfishly. But the atheist lacks belief because there is no God to believe in.

Can't say, since you haven't told me why you lack belief in unicorns.

Because I believe they don't exist.

The same argument applies to God, of course

That's what I mean... "So IOW. Unicorns don't exist, until such time when one can be seen."

As are you.

What?

Why would I want to get around it? If God doesn't exist, should we not accept that reality and move on with our lives?

I don't know. Should you?

When you're talking about things that don't exist, who knows what

Isn't that what I just said?

" it is difficult to grasp to get a good likeness of something that doesn't actually exist."

What's a "good likeness" of a unicorn? Is your concept of a unicorn most likely wrong, following your own argument? As a confessed unicorn skeptic, would you say your concept of unicorns is most likely wrong?

I don't believe they exist, so all I have to go on are outside concepts. If it turns out that unicorns do exist, I'll let you if my concepts are wrong.

God is basically a human being who lives in the sky

Of course he is, and a unicorn is a horse with a horn sticking out of its forehead.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I bet you dont.
Alex

They do help clarify my belief though.

Jan.

 

[DaveC426913]

Neither is it based on belief.

It is based on belief because, though you believe in God you can't show that it exists outside your head.

This thread isn't about me defending my beliefs.

100% agree. Which is one of the reasons why, every time you introduce one of your beliefs, which are indefensible, someone calls you out on it. You have been looping in circles because, after saying 'God exists. You are without God' you have nothing to back it up with, except to say it again.

And it doing so, you are manifesting your belief as - not merely faith-based - but cult-based.

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena:

The concept of God is not the same as God.
Okay, we're on the same page.

Good.

So you believe God is?

I believe God is ... what? Different from my concept of God? To compare my concept of God to God, there would need to be a God to compare the concept to. Can you show me one?

Nevertheless it is true. You wouldn't say to your daughter going for her job interview : "Sweetheart I know you are capable of getting this job, because I believe in your existence". You wouldn't even think about her existence.

We've been through this in some detail in the past (and, indeed, in one of my previous posts in this thread). You use the phrase "believe in [something]" to mean trusting in the thing, having confidence in it, etc. This is different from "believing that [something] exists."

Now, theists like yourself assert that you "believe in" God. This necessarily implies that you also believe that God exists, because to trust or have confidence in a God who does not exist would be a pointless exercise for you (presumably). But people can make mistakes. Maybe God only exists as a concept in your head, and what you really "believe in" is that concept rather than an actual God. That is, possibly you believe in an ideal that is not present in fact. That's a common human trait. And if it turns out that there actually is no God, then the only possible object for your "belief in" God is your concept of God.

You accept that apples exist, so yes you can.
Does God exist asside from being a concept in your mind?

I don't know if God exists aside from being a concept in my mind. I've told you this time and again, but you never seem to understand my point of view. I'm not aware of any sufficient argument or evidence that convinces me that God exists. Moreover, what evidence there is suggests to me that God probably doesn't exist as described in the various religious traditions. But I keep the door open, because it is always possible that I'm wrong.

In terms of "believing in" God, in your sense of trusting in God's plan for people and the world, and God's care for human beings and the like, I don't have a belief in God. For me to hold that kind of belief would require much more convincing signs that a God of that kind exists in fact.

So if the the atheist depends on the theist to show God to him, then from all perspectives, the atheist is without God, which is all I'm saying. You may lack a belief in mine, yours, anybody elses concept of God, but there is no actual God to lack belief in. Which is the reason why you rely on others.

I am aware of the existence of many different concepts of God (gods, whatever), held by many different people of many different religious persuasions. If a theist asserts that his or her particular description of God is the "right" one, then I think it is reasonable to ask that the theist provide appropriate evidence or persuasive argument to establish his or her claim.

So, you are correct that I rely on you to convince me that your concept of God corresponds to an actual God of the kind you describe.

Alternatively, I'm open to the possibility that your God, being an independent mind (I assume), could choose to reveal himself to me unambigously in his own way at some point in time. But I've seen no sign of that happening so far.

In what way are the different description[s of God] incompatible?

I'm sure we've touched on that topic in the past, too. It's probably one for a separate thread, if you want to delve into it.

At the most basic level, different religions posit different numbers of gods, for one thing. The nature and attitudes of the gods of different religions vary. The supposed "word of God" differs from scripture to scripture (and even from chapter to chapter in the same scripture).

Are you saying you're not without God?

I thought I'd already explained. Tell me what you mean by "without God".

I doubt that God exists. I don't believe "in" God in the way you use that term. I see no reason to have trust or confidence in a God that probably does not exist in reality.

If these things make me "without God", then ok, I'm without God. But maybe you have something else in mind.

What this argument tends to come back to with many theists - yourself included, I think - is that you like to assert that atheists such as myself "believe that God does not exist". I do not "believe that God does not exist", because the truth is that I don't believe that we can know whether God exists or not, for sure. I doubt that God exists. I'm fairly confident that God, as described by the various religious traditions, does not exist. But I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

I agree atheist lack a belief in God. Theists will at times lack belief in God, when we act selfishly. But the atheist lacks belief because there is no God to believe in.

If that is the case, if theists are wrong and God turns out not to exist, then theists also lack belief in God, as a matter of fact. All they have, instead, is belief in their concept of God.

Regardless of whetehr there is a God to believe in, the typical atheists lacks belief "in" God because they see no basis for trusting or placing confidence in something which seems to have no effect in the real world.

Because I believe they don't exist.

See, I would say that I lack belief in unicorns because there's insufficient evidence that they exist. I don't feel compelled to commit to a black-or-white view of the world in which I assume I already know everything.

That's what I mean... "So IOW. Unicorns don't exist, until such time when one can be seen."

Not exactly. Unicorns might exist, but there's no good reason to put any confidence in their existence or to trust in them in any way until such time as there is something to positively suggest that they exist.

What?

If God doesn't exist, you are without God, same as me. If God doesn't exist, there's nothing to believe in, other than your concocted concept of God. But that would be a kind of self-delusion.

I don't know. Should you?

I'm getting on with life just fine without belief in God.

What's the value in believing in fantasies that are probably false? Don't you think that would be a waste of time and energy?

I don't believe they exist, so all I have to go on are outside concepts. If it turns out that unicorns do exist, I'll let you if my concepts are wrong.

Same for me as far as God goes. So, we're on the same page on this now, are we?

Of course he is, and a unicorn is a horse with a horn sticking out of its forehead.

Your point was that we don't create concepts out of whole cloth - we draw on prior ideas and other concepts to create new ones. My point is that the concept of God is no different from the concept of unicorns in that respect.

So, again, we're on the same page on this one, are we not?

 

[Michael 345]

Oh god

Oh god

Oh goooooooood

Oh there you are

What do you make of these two?

Can you make them stop?

You can but you won't?

Oh free will

OK thanks for stopping by

Bye

 

[Jan Ardena]

It is based on belief because, though you believe in God you can't show that it exists outside your head.

This assertion "It is because you cannot perceive God, why you need evidence of His existence", is based on fact. No theist ever believed in God because someone else showed God to him. Anthony Flew undoubtedly, like you, asked to be shown evidence of God, for decades. Yet when he finally came to his senses, he did so alone, as does every theist.
So you're needing to be shown that God exists, from others, has nothing to do with whether or not God actually exists.
Now that I have shown you this. let's see if you keep asking for God to be shown to you. If you do, then you're request is nothing but a tactic.

100% agree. Which is one of the reasons why, every time you introduce one of your beliefs, which are indefensible, someone calls you out on it.

Nothing I have said in this thread, regarding atheism, is based on any belief I hold for God. So it is pointless attempting to call me out on my beliefs.

Personally I think you need to bring belief in it, so you can maintain your own concept of God.

And it doing so, you are manifesting your belief as - not merely faith-based - but cult-based.

Wow! A new low.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Part 1 of 3

I believe God is ... what? Different from my concept of God?

No. Just God Is.

To compare my concept of God to God, there would need to be a God to compare the concept to.

That is my point. There is no God as far as you're concerned. Hence you are "without God", the original meaning of "atheist".

Can you show me one?

No. Just like no one could show God to Anthony Flew.

Now, theists like yourself assert that you "believe in" God. This necessarily implies that you also believe that God exists, because to trust or have confidence in a God who does not exist would be a pointless exercise for you (presumably). But people can make mistakes. Maybe God only exists as a concept in your head, and what you really "believe in" is that concept rather than an actual God. That is, possibly you believe in an ideal that is not present in fact. That's a common human trait. And if it turns out that there actually is no God, then the only possible object for your "belief in" God is your concept of God.

But there is no way you can know. Everything you say is limited to the perspective of being without God. To get around this, you develop a concept of God (strawGod) which has to not exist. You engage theists in discussion, limiting the subject matter to this strawGod, thereby endlessly going back and forth about the actual existence of this strawGod., as though you are discussing God

But I am talking about God, and you currently cannot perceive God. There is a difference, as you correctly pointed out, between God and the concept of God.

I don't know if God exists aside from being a concept in my mind. I've told you this time and again, but you never seem to understand my point of view.

I understand perfectly. You are without God, therefore you God does not exist for you. He exists as a concept. This is how God exists for everyone regardless of whether they believe He actually exists or not. It is from concepts of God that we can come to realise God. But it is not a simple process. From a theist perspective this is the mercy of God.

I'm not aware of any sufficient argument or evidence that convinces me that God exists. Moreover, what evidence there is suggests to me that God probably doesn't exist as described in the various religious traditions. But I keep the door open, because it is always possible that I'm wrong.

That is not how you get to realise God. Sufficient arguments, and or evidences, can allow you to comprehend the attributes of God, but to come to the conclusion that God is, you don't need them. There is something in you that does not accept God, regardless of arguments or evidences, and that's why you don't perceive God. Whatever that things is, and I suspect Anthony Flew had the same, or very similar thing, it will always prevent you, until you confront it.