In a World...where God (Christian) had finally revealed himself...

Not that I want to get into the "Debate" that I have been in and am well over arguing anymore, but free will cannot exist if God has created everything and it is all a part of "The Plan".

Unfortunately for people like me, who look into the logic of things before he "believes" them this idea seems to be the LARGEST discrepency in beliefs amongst Christians. That at once, God knows and creates and has his hand in EVERYTHING, yet has NO control over your ability to believe in Him or reject Him. This is utterly and entirely contradictory...no matter what it "says" in the bible. He either controls everything or he doesn't. Simple...

Don't feel bad. Most people who believe in Jesus don't understand this either. I spend a lot of time talking about this to a lot of people and most have not been given understanding. And in truth it is not the level of understanding that a person needs to have eternity with God. But many poeple use God predestination as a kind of justification for hating Him. But in truth they cannot understand that it is Gods Foreknowledge that allows Him to have pre-determined the eternal destination of all who have lived. And that Foreknowledge also allows us to have our free will. Pretty important word Foreknowledge.

If I give a 5 year old a book, and never teach him to read it, is it safe to say that the child ALONE is responsible for understanding the information in it?

Well we have a reading ability it is called a conscience. Even if people have shounted it down during their lives and pretty much silenced it. The fact is they had it but rebelled against it.



Is it safe to say that if there are rules and regulations that the child is expected to follow and he does not follow them that it is by the child's own direct disboediance that he has not followed them...or that the rules themselves made no sense to him? That the rules just looked like foreign and unknown squibbles put together into incoherent (to someone unable to read) combinations?

2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.



Just the same, if my brain operates on logic, and understanding, and a very strong curiosity for the nature of the universe, and then is presented with a book that is very "human" very simplistic, and banal, very much like a fable or a childrens story when in relation to the complexity of existence (i.e. Sodom was evil, Sodom was punsihed. The wicked were bad, and bad things happened to bad people. Moses was faithful and obedient Moses was rewarded...)

You brain operates on self pride and arrogance and confidance in its self. Not realising compared to God your a dumb ass moron. I always get a laugh when people stand up with pride and gloat over their intellectual superiority.

Yes, all this is well and good, but, I ask, why is it the E=MC^2?

lol



I ask, now that I am in a civilized and cultured world, where man has developed great things and has transcended his ancestors, where the world is less about how much "grain" one can produce in a given season, and more about the longevity of his community's grain?

Ohhh the pride.. I can almost hear trumpets blowing. :D



Where the world has structure and government, and at least a semblance of order that these stories of inquity and tyranny, and corruption fit into my everyday world? I would punish a corrupt governor, NOT because God tells me so, but because it is harmful to society...I would promote punishment from theft, NOT because it is written that "Thou shalt not" but because if thou did it would equally be detrimental to a society where correspondence and companionship, and teamwork and success itself REQUIRE that one shouldn't steal from his neighbor? What value does this book have to the man of today?

When are you going to punish yourself? No wonder you cannot understand.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
adstar,

food for thought in regards to the tree...

it says the tree(s) will produce 12 different fruits, each month, for 1000 years.

12 X 12 X 1000 = 144,000


ahhh :) The numbers in the Bible. Very impressive isn't it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
This so called GOD would be like any other medium.
Unless HE/SHE could answer some questions to which only God would know the answer.

The test would be simple.
Hide a random object, say a spoon, in a random place, say your car.

Go to the God.
Say, "Magnificent One. I have hidden an object today, in a place unknown to none. Tell me Lord, what did I hide, and where did I hide it"

If the GOD says either
"Human, do not put thy Lord to the test. I know exactly what thou hid, and exactly where thou hiddedstidit. But I'm not going to say"
or
"I think the Object began with a P, or it could be a D"

Have serious doubts, but keep on its good side just to be careful.
 
Last edited:
This so called GOD would be like any other medium.
Unless HE/SHE could answer some questions to which only God would know the answer.

The test would be simple.
Hide a random object, say a spoon, in a random place, say your car.

Go to the God.
Say, "Magnificent One. I have hidden an object today, in a place unknown to none. Tell me Lord, what did I hide, and where did I hide it"

If the GOD says either
"Human, do not put thy Lord to the test. I know exactly what thou hid, and exactly where thou hiddedstidit. But I'm not going to say"
or
"I think the Object began with a P, or it could be a D"

Have serious doubts, but keep on its good side just to be careful.

criss angel could do that.
 
I would spend a lot of time questioning my sanity & perhaps would never be convinced that I was not hallucinating or otherwise mentally unbalanced.

this is definitely skeptical, but i don't think it's rational.
 
WOW...thats really something.

yeah, it makes sense. if it's a tree of life, that it's fruit would be lives, and it's 12 varieties representing the 12 tribes.

it's funny, when god first impressed this upon me, that it's a population, it was kind of disturbing because, at most there are 2 trees (the bible describes them as being on opposite banks of a river). and i thought of these two trees as women, birthing.

so that's 6 babies a month, every month, for 1000 years.

it reminded me of that movie "the brood". ever seen it? it's a '70's cult classic that freaked me and my girlfriends out at a slumber party when we were preteens. it's about this lady who has all these embryonic sacs coming out of her body, and she gives birth to this brood of murderous midgets that pummel people to death with meat cleavers.

funny stuff.
 
No, hard to believe i never heard of the movie either. I thought i saw all the 70s and 80s movies made.:D

Cant beat the film look, especially for horror movies.
 
The trailer looked good but it looks to be too gory for me. I am referring to where the static comes from devices and it is really communications from dead people. Cant remember the name of that movie, michael keaton was in it. Time stopping freaks me out too, like clocks stopping or watches etc. he he he...
 
The trailer looked good but it looks to be too gory for me. I am referring to where the static comes from devices and it is really communications from dead people. Cant remember the name of that movie, michael keaton was in it. Time stopping freaks me out too, like clocks stopping or watches etc. he he he...

the trailer cracks me up; it's so frickin' funny...

"it will devastate you totally"


hahahaha
 
Don't feel bad. Most people who believe in Jesus don't understand this either. I spend a lot of time talking about this to a lot of people and most have not been given understanding. And in truth it is not the level of understanding that a person needs to have eternity with God. But many poeple use God predestination as a kind of justification for hating Him. But in truth they cannot understand that it is Gods Foreknowledge that allows Him to have pre-determined the eternal destination of all who have lived. And that Foreknowledge also allows us to have our free will. Pretty important word Foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge, got it. So he knows ahead of time that I am going to reject Him, and thus his inability to change it is more agitating for him? I mean, if I was a teacher, and I sat 1-on-1 with a student, face to face, told him EVERYTHING he needed to know about the test, which is on ME of course. and when test day came around he failed, I would feel bad about it, maybe I didn't do the right thing? Maybe my teaching method wasn't good enough? Maybe it only works on SOME students, some of my children but not all?

If I were an all-powerful teacher, and I was perfect, and represented perfection, shouldn't I expect a 100% from all of my students? Shouldn't I have created the BEST method of teaching? If my students weren't perfect, and didn't all get A's should I assume that there was something inherently wrong with them, something malfunctioning in their brain or maybe it was the test itself?

Moreover, if I CREATED the students, with my own two hands, and I was perfect at creating them, with a foreknowledge of what was necessary to create the BEING with the strongest, most reliable capacity for understanding my perfection...better yet, if I created a being with JUST enough understanding to make sense of the book I will create with the perfect foreknowledge of what types of people will accept this idea, why would I subject the people I personally created to REJECT me, why would I subject them to Hell.

I am a human right? And I don't understand this "perfect" logic. Namely:

God is perfect and has foreknowledge of all things. He is all powerful. He created beings to worship and love His glory. These beings are created by Him for Him...He is love.

Some of the beings He creates, with foreknowledge of the requirements to create believers, believe in Him without contemplation, or with little to no contemplation. Others reject Him with full contemplation. They think, they read, they assess, they read again, they think, and yet still with the same, if not MORE knowledge than the believers, they STILL choose to reject Him. If they don't have more of, or the same amount of knowledge then they have LESS knowledge, which is WHY they won't understand. But they could only have less knowledge if I set the stage as such.

Despite, God will punish them to eternity in hell, even though every aspect of them, every neuron in their brain which He so perfectly designed, every nuance of their thought is controlled and directly created by Him, with foreknowledge of who and who won't believe in him. If this is not true then He has not created them and something outside of His being has created them. And He is NOT the creator and controller of all things. At what point does he take responsibility for my failure to understand? Or at what point does he NOT remain God, namely, the perfect creator of all things, including my rejection of Him?

Did He or did He not create every aspect of me, my ability to understand, my ability to misunderstand, my ability to accept, my ability to reject? If he created these aspects, why am I responsible for overpowering his creation. If he created my brain as the type that does not understand His word, because it seems childish and immature to explain to grown, civilized adults who understand right and wrong as a utility for societal progress, if he created my brain as the type which rejects him, why is it that I am responsible, being a part of his creation, to outsmart HIM and believe.

He gave me my brain and I am supposed to use it to believe in Him, yet he made my brain unable to, because the logic behind believing in Him makes no sense to my type of brain...

At what point is he responsible?
Or at what point is he not all powerful?

Because there are only one of two possibilities which oppose each other...

He either created all things, including my brain and its propensity to reject Him and thus is responsible for my rejection of him, because he created that small inch of my brain that looks at the information and rejects it as fallacious information.

Or he did not create all things, specifically the section in my brain that rejects Him, and he is thus not responsible for my rejection, I am, and he is also not the creator of all things?
 
criss angel could do that.

Mmmh.....
Didn't think of that.

What happens when Jimmy Swaggart and his ilk's coffers start running dry because no-one is listening to them any more now they have the real thing.
They'll accuse God of being a "Deemen from Heyell"
 
Yes cure the sick, heal the wounded, destroy the wicked...or at least put them aside to be forgiven...ha.

It's vague because its assumed to be a "positive experience for human society at large"? How would you feel, what would you do? How would your life be changed?

Any entity that did that would not be recognizable as any god I have ever heard of.
Jesus the sun-god was said to cure the sick,but not much else he did helped humanity.
Throwing out the money changers was admirable...
 
Don't believe everything you believe.

In a World...where God (Christian) had finally revealed himself...

Why the term CHRISTIAN is put here is the $64 Q. Why wait for a localised edition which created only chaos and contradiction - aside from more mass murder than any other belief system? Is not the God of creation the only one which can assist humanity? Second to this must be the figure Moses - the world's most believed human and the only one who can affirm or deny what Christianity and Islam genuinely but contradicting believe. Makes no sense whatsoever. :shrug:
 
Throwing out the money changers was admirable...

No, it was not - they were doing what they did for 2000 years and gladly gave their lives to uphold their beliefs against Rome's heresy doctrine. Throwing out the brutal Romans - not that would be something! Hmm...no Moses fgure here! :D
 
Mmmh.....
Didn't think of that.

What happens when Jimmy Swaggart and his ilk's coffers start running dry because no-one is listening to them any more now they have the real thing.
They'll accuse God of being a "Deemen from Heyell"

that's a real possibility.
 
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