Immortality issues -- esp. for Cris

[ghost7584]

just read the thread, very interesting...congradulations Water!!

I just wanted to ask the question :

Can it ever be claimed by an Immortal that he/she is immortal?

The reasoning is simple enough in that you have to live for eternity to be able to make such a claim and of course you can never say you have lived for eternity with out living for eternity which of course takes an eternal amount of time which can never be lived....dah dah dah.......

....

Micah 5:
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

Having existed for an everlasting time in the past, as the Word of God that was also God, Jesus the Messiah was and is immortal.
[He took on a physical body as Jesus Christ to fulfill the Messiah prophecies and offer Himself a sacrifice to atone for the sins of man, so that men can be saved from the punishment for their sins, and enter into heaven in the afterlife.]

Jesus said these things:
John 8:
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John8:
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Light Travelling]

You probably had a point in mind but failed to make it.
.

I was asking a question of you to try to establish which is the 'self' that you which to preserve and give longer life to? What do you perceive as self - what do you understand to be you?

(I see that since asking this Yorda has covered much of this anyway.)

You seem content that the thing you call 'you', resides in your intellect and by preserving your intellect you preserve 'you' giving you effective immortality. So we could say that you see self as residing in the brain - but not being the actual physical brain. But here I am putting words in your mouth and I really wanted your definition.

I would say that there is no such thing as the ego (personality) self that many identitfy, this is illusion. But we do have an underlying identity (of thought, spirit and sense consciousness) which does not die with the body and reembodies life after life. But this identity is not in itself entirly seperate and is a part of the 'one' consciousness of the universe that one may call god. Hence we are in god and god in us. Although that said 'self' and lack of self are some of the most difficult things to understand and I must say for me this is still very much a work in progress.

Also, given your your hypothosis of how we can evolve into what is effectively non corporal life. Why do you not entertain the possibilty that non corporal (spiritual) life already exists?

 

[Light Travelling]

And to expand my last question a little further. If you believe in evolution, and you believe that in the not too distant future humanity will evolve into non corporal life. Why do you still make the massive assumption that we are top of the evolutionary ladder. Why do you not consider that other life has already evolved to be non corporal.

If you argure that it is beacuse they have not made themselves known in the tangible universe - well thats obvioulsy beacuse they are non tangible, non corporal, spiritual. To suggest the non physical prove itself in the physical is completely illogical.

Maybe when you have evolved to be non corporal, there will be beings in physical bodies who say that you dont exist??? Have you considered that?

Or - if you are saying we will never be completely non corporal in the inorganic sense of the term. If we are all just existing on substrates - who is going to be moving the substrates around - uploading / downloading - are we to become robots, and then who is the 'us' - the robot or the substrate?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Ghost,

I saw the experiment and tried it this morning. No response (and I was very
serious about the question). I have some thoughts that I would like to share.
They are not conclusions or judgmenets:

Around this time I started hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from somewhere else, they weren't my thoughts. I also started seeing little colored flashes of light in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like visions, not really in the physical world. I decided that this was evidence that demons exist

The description sounds similar to schitzophrenia and maybe a medical
opinion would provide an altenative angle to look at the event.

Additionally, when first waking up for sleep people are prone to an event
called hyponogogic hallucination. I've had these before and they seem
pretty 'real' (careful observations can actually find flaws). Maybe the
experiment can be repeated at a time when the risk of HH's are minimal (when
well rested and very much awake)?

 

[Cris]

Light,

I was asking a question of you to try to establish which is the 'self' that you which to preserve and give longer life to? What do you perceive as self - what do you understand to be you?

I am an emergent property generated and maintained by my neural networks.

You seem content that the thing you call 'you', resides in your intellect and by preserving your intellect you preserve 'you' giving you effective immortality.

No. Intellect, emotions, feelings, are all part of me. I want preserve the brain patterns or their equivalent that result in my continued existence.

So we could say that you see self as residing in the brain - but not being the actual physical brain.

Residing is not a good choice of word. The brain generates patterns of activity that result in self awareness that is me. I am my neural networks.

.. we do have an underlying identity (of thought, spirit and sense consciousness) which does not die with the body and reembodies life after life.

This is fantasy. What is the mechanism that allows this and what exactly do you mean by identity?

But this identity is not in itself entirly seperate and is a part of the 'one' consciousness of the universe that one may call god.

Pure fantasy.

Hence we are in god and god in us. Although that said 'self' and lack of self are some of the most difficult things to understand and I must say for me this is still very much a work in progress.

I have no doubt of what I am or who I am. You are still fantasizing though.

Also, given your your hypothosis of how we can evolve into what is effectively non corporal life.

You may have misunderstood. I have not said anything like that. We would be very much corporeal, or at least totally dependent on a corporeal mechanism. You are the data to that mechanism.

Why do you not entertain the possibilty that non corporal (spiritual) life already exists?

Absolutely zero evidence for it.

And to expand my last question a little further. If you believe in evolution, and you believe that in the not too distant future humanity will evolve into non corporal life.

I haven’t – you have misunderstood.

Why do you still make the massive assumption that we are top of the evolutionary ladder.

I haven’t. In another thread, a couple of years ago I believe, I made the point that our move to an uploaded state and hence superintelligence is likely the time that other alien species have been patiently waiting, so we can join them. In Star Trek they had the concept of first contact when warp drive was developed; I suspect the real first contact will occur when we have matured to a level of intelligence a 100 fold or greater than our current state.

Why do you not consider that other life has already evolved to be non corporal.

Continued misunderstanding.

Maybe when you have evolved to be non corporal, there will be beings in physical bodies who say that you dont exist??? Have you considered that?

Continued misunderstanding. There is no evidence that anything can be non-corporeal. But feel free to speculate.

If we are all just existing on substrates - who is going to be moving the substrates around - uploading / downloading - are we to become robots, and then who is the 'us' - the robot or the substrate?

Ok now you are beginning to understand.

First, stop thinking of yourself as a substance but instead as a pattern of neural networks. Once the details of that pattern is uploaded into an appropriate processing device then you will become active. If that processor is also connected to say a robotic body then you will be able to physically move around. Alternatively you might wish to be loaded into a virtual world, matrix style.

Who is doing the moving? Well initially you will be dependent on external mechanisms, others or a device. And of course if you elect a robotic lifestyle and become marooned on a deserted planet and run out of power then you will likely stay inactive for perhaps a long time until something provides you some power or your patterns decay – i.e. you die.

The robot scenario has been termed as the evolution into Robosapiens. This I suspect will be the preferred approach. Although there is much to be said for the virtual city concept.

Most in the field see AI as inevitable and fairly soon. We think Moores law will continue to hold for some time and at least long enough to allow computing power to exceed human brain power and go beyond. At that time these AI’s will likely become the dominant intelligence on the planet. We are likely to be faced with a choice – be dominated or choose to be uploaded and join the AI’s. This technological event is known as the singularity.

Does that help?

 

[Quantum Quack]

So what does this neural workings act upon to give you a sense of being?

If all you are is binary bits of electrical information that you exist only as some sort of glorified computer program, and fortunately this is not the case. the neural activity works with tissue and muscle not to mention hormones now unless you can digitally contrive the performance of hormones you are in for a very inferior time as a computor program or electronic signature of some sort.

To actually feel you exist you must be able to experiece pleasure and pain and both these things requires a corporal organism to experience them with. To just say "ouch" simply because a neural network or program requires it is a very poor simulation of the actual experience, even our dream states require a body to reflect our dream experiences other wise we are just bits of electrical energy with out anything to act upon.

In other words electricity is useless unless it can do some sort of work. And that work must be carried out on an object that can provide feedback or sensation otherwise the work is purely mechanical.

 

[Cris]

Quantum Quack,

So what does this neural workings act upon to give you a sense of being?

I don’t think you quite understand your own question. A sense of being or self-awareness is the emergent property that arises when neural networks exceed a certain threshold of complexity. Bear that in mind for the moment.

If all you are is binary bits of electrical information that you exist only as some sort of glorified computer program, and fortunately this is not the case.

I believe that is called a strawman argument. My point was that you are represented by the complexity of your neural networks. How they are activated and maintained is another issue. But your strawman tries to make an inappropriate parallel with something too simple. As a sense of perspective the human brain has roughly the equivalent processing power of 20,000 Intel Pentium4 2GHz microprocessors, all operating in a massively parallel processing environment. But yes you are correct at one level – the primary activity is maintained by electricity.

..the neural activity works with tissue and muscle not to mention hormones now unless you can digitally contrive the performance of hormones you are in for a very inferior time as a computor program or electronic signature of some sort.

So here is the crux of your confusion. All these tissues and substances ultimately interact with your neural networks. They are not you. For example if your arm were amputated, you would agree that you would still be you. If you lost all your arms and legs, while tragic, you would still be you. If we continue this process with other organs, eyes, ears, etc, assuming we could artifically keep the brain alive, and ignoring issues of going insane and sensory deprivation; you would still be you. What is left is the processing mechanism holding a unique set of neural networks – you.

To actually feel you exist you must be able to experiece pleasure and pain and both these things requires a corporal organism to experience them with.

Pain and pleasure are the result of the activation of certain neural networks. Feelings and emotions are the result of the activation of certain neural networks. Thoughts are the result of the activation of certain neural networks. These external devices are simply peripherals connected to the brain and are ultimately experienced through specific patterns of neural networks.

To just say "ouch" simply because a neural network or program requires it is a very poor simulation of the actual experience,

You’ve missed the point. Pain is the result of activating a specific neural network; whether you say ouch or not is irrelevant.

even our dream states require a body to reflect our dream experiences other wise we are just bits of electrical energy with out anything to act upon.

Not sure what you mean here. During rem sleep your motor functions are suppressed otherwise you would likely seriously damage yourself. Dreams are apparently the result of protein replenishment in the synapses, i.e. the connections between neurons. These changes cause neurons to fire erratically and the resultant neural networks attempt to make sense of these random nonsense stimulations – the result is dreaming. Clearly this is purely a housekeeping operation localized to the brain only.

In other words electricity is useless unless it can do some sort of work.

So performing mental arithmetic is not a type of work then? You should realize at this point that you are totally wrong.

And that work must be carried out on an object that can provide feedback or sensation otherwise the work is purely mechanical.

A continuation of your error we have just established.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Quantum Quack,

I don’t think you quite understand your own question. A sense of being or self-awareness is the emergent property that arises when neural networks exceed a certain threshold of complexity. Bear that in mind for the moment.

I believe that is called a strawman argument. My point was that you are represented by the complexity of your neural networks. How they are activated and maintained is another issue. But your strawman tries to make an inappropriate parallel with something too simple. As a sense of perspective the human brain has roughly the equivalent processing power of 20,000 Intel Pentium4 2GHz microprocessors, all operating in a massively parallel processing environment. But yes you are correct at one level – the primary activity is maintained by electricity.

So here is the crux of your confusion. All these tissues and substances ultimately interact with your neural networks. They are not you. For example if your arm were amputated, you would agree that you would still be you. If you lost all your arms and legs, while tragic, you would still be you. If we continue this process with other organs, eyes, ears, etc, assuming we could artifically keep the brain alive, and ignoring issues of going insane and sensory deprivation; you would still be you. What is left is the processing mechanism holding a unique set of neural networks – you.

Pain and pleasure are the result of the activation of certain neural networks. Feelings and emotions are the result of the activation of certain neural networks. Thoughts are the result of the activation of certain neural networks. These external devices are simply peripherals connected to the brain and are ultimately experienced through specific patterns of neural networks.

You’ve missed the point. Pain is the result of activating a specific neural network; whether you say ouch or not is irrelevant.

Not sure what you mean here. During rem sleep your motor functions are suppressed otherwise you would likely seriously damage yourself. Dreams are apparently the result of protein replenishment in the synapses, i.e. the connections between neurons. These changes cause neurons to fire erratically and the resultant neural networks attempt to make sense of these random nonsense stimulations – the result is dreaming. Clearly this is purely a housekeeping operation localized to the brain only.

So performing mental arithmetic is not a type of work then? You should realize at this point that you are totally wrong.

A continuation of your error we have just established.

neural netwroks with in a self animated articulated organism. Do you have any real idea of how the brain works? or the infinite variable that the body provides for the "person" to live with?

I think you underestimate just how clever the human mind/body arrangement is? Do you know of an appropriate virtual substance to replace adrenalin for example and how that substance registers in our conscious and not to mention our subconscious existence?

Do you have any idea how it is we can think as emotional beings?

And how removing emotion and feeling from our thoughts renders us to being no more than glorified calculators?

The thing is we are of an organic nature and being organic means something very different than that of a mere circuit board inside some sort of main frame.

Maybe if you define the difference between organic neurology and non-organic neurology you would see the distinction.
Our neurology reflects off tissue [with all it's hormonal reactions] and with out tissue our neurology is no longer able to function, when you have learned to upload adrenalin then i think we can talk about a simulcrum existence.

What is the difference between organically generated electricity and machine generated electricity?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Cris, I guess the point i wanted to make with all this is that our thoughts, imagination and creativity is dependent upon our hormonal or physical reaction to what we sense.
With out feelings associated with what we sense we have nothing to think about or experience.
so to successfully upload our sentience one has to upload our hormonal natures as well.

To contrive an adrenal reflex to all our thoughts would be impossible with out using an organic base.
As most if not all our thoughts are premised in fear [adrenal] how do you propose to sythesise the fear based pathology of our thoughts with out using an organic structure to do so?
[The adrenalin is also I might add something our bodies manufacture and i'd like to see a computer manufacture adrenalin, or insulin, or seratonin, or endorphines, or pheromones, steroids or testosterone, estrogen etc etc...please excuse the spellings.]

At the moment i don't think we are even capable of generating a complete computer model of a single skin cell let alone an entire organism as complex as a human being.

 

[water]

Woah.

 

[okinrus]

I don’t think you quite understand your own question. A sense of being or self-awareness is the emergent property that arises when neural networks exceed a certain threshold of complexity. Bear that in mind for the moment.

Cris, first, even if someone was able to fully duplicate your neural networks, you would not have existence and self-awareness as the duplicate; the duplicate would. Second, no one knows how to build a self-aware neural network. I don't think self-awareness as any correlation to the complexity of the neural network. You could observe yourself only adding numbers; the only thing you can do. But you'd still have self-awareness.


Quantum Quack, the neural networks sense the hormones as inputs to the neural network. In theory, these inputs could be duplicated by electrical signals.

 

[Cris]

Okinrus,

Cris, first, even if someone was able to fully duplicate your neural networks, you would not have existence and self-awareness as the duplicate; the duplicate would.

I suspect you mistyped something here. What you seem to be saying is that I and the duplicate would be self-aware, which I suspect is not what you were trying to say.

Second, no one knows how to build a self-aware neural network.

That is true, the computing power still isn’t in place yet. We have perhaps another 8 years for the needed power and a few years beyond that to show progress on prototype algorithms.

You could observe yourself only adding numbers; the only thing you can do. But you'd still have self-awareness.

Was that another typo?

 

[Cris]

Quantum Quack,

Sorry but I think the response from Okinrus is a good response -

Quantum Quack, the neural networks sense the hormones as inputs to the neural network. In theory, these inputs could be duplicated by electrical signals.

While there are some autonomous systems involving hormones most secretions are controlled by the brain, i.e. the neural networks. The effects of these hormones also result in the feedback to the brain. Either way the control and the feedback originate and end in electrical signals.

Now please don’t misunderstand me – there is still a colossal engineering and science project ahead of us that will result in a duplication of the essential functioning of the human brain. But it is an engineering problem and not the apparent insurmountable problem of discovering a supernatural realm.

 

[Cris]

Water,

Woah.

New perspectives?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Cris, I appreciate your indemnity clause....[chuckle - not sure what that is supposed to mean - in full]

however it is my opinion that teh body is a reflection of the brains functions.

In our minds we have an imaginary body which we use to move ourselves about with. A virtual version of our outer self so to speak.

The brain IMO is a reflective processor that functions by it's awareness of all that happens in that body it is reflecting and the body is reflecting off it.

i can use these questions as an example:

How much of our thinking is devoted to movement of our limbs and center of gravity, How much time is spent thinking about our necxt dinner or sexual act, how much time is spent thinking about abstractions and fantasy?

The list goes on. The reasosn our time is taken up thinking is becasue of our physical needs and some of our spiritual needs [ for some]

To take away teh organism you need to work with you remove any need to think as a person or human.

If you uploaded a simulcrum of yourself and even installed a virtual body, that body is not subject to it's own self generated manufacture of all teh chemicals and needs that a body has.

It would be an artificial environment that would lead only in one doirection in my opinon and that is insanity, eventually the uploaded personality would fall into insanity due to the lack of any physical grounding. things like touch and the ususal mundane communications of chemicals and information that goes on between people.


Tere was however an interesting twilight zone program which explored the idea of swapping bodies. the story was about how a pharoh would swap bodies with a younger man every thirty years or so so therefore rejuvenating his physical existence.

Whilst this may seem morally inferior it is possible that a blank slate can be genetically grown so that a persons memeories and neural network could be applied thus maintinaing personality and yet achieveing virtual immortality by doing so.

This would be a much more feasable method IMO that an upload as a collection of computer files.
It would still pose the same "I" as in "identity" issue though.....

 

[superluminal]

QQ:

In our minds we have an imaginary body which we use to move ourselves about with. A virtual version of our outer self so to speak.

Hi QQ.

This is called the "sensory and motor homunculus."

 

[superluminal]

Cris:

Now please don’t misunderstand me – there is still a colossal engineering and science project ahead of us that will result in a duplication of the essential functioning of the human brain. But it is an engineering problem and not the apparent insurmountable problem of discovering a supernatural realm.

I agree.