Immortality issues -- esp. for Cris

[(Q)]

I became a christian from being an agnostic physics student, by doing an experiment to test for the existence of God.

Then, as a physics student, you know that the experiment MUST be repeatable. If I, or anyone else, conducts the same experiment with null results, you also know that your conclusions are invalid, because the initial hypothesis has been falsified.

Of course, when your experiment turns up null results, and you continue to cling to your pet theory, you'll be considered little more than a crackpot.

But of course, as a physics student, you knew that, right?

Part of the evidence from my experiment was:
Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from the New Testament to me, as it applied in my case.

Very well, as a student of the sciences, you should allow us to conduct the same experiment in order for us to test your hypothesis, which you haven't really made clear as yet.

Could you please give us the details of your experiment and the crux of your hypothesis? Thanks in advance!

Believe what you want; you are going to do that anyway.

There's no reason to state such a thing. I'm sure the most ardent atheist here would be tickled pink to have Jesus Christ appear before them, don't ya think?

So, are you game for allowing us to repeat your experiment or are you just blowing smoke?

 

[(Q)]

In fact many people look for death as a great release, a great unburdening of deeds and thoughts committed, from the highs and lows of life.

The only people I've ever met who thought as such were the terminally ill, and even then there were very few - most of them did not want to die. Are you referring to the suicidal?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Yes, please give (Q) those experiment details. He will not hesitate to perform
it.

 

[Light Travelling]

In fact many people look for death as a great release, a great unburdening of deeds and thoughts committed, from the highs and lows of life.

The only people I've ever met who thought as such were the terminally ill, and even then there were very few - most of them did not want to die. Are you referring to the suicidal?

Please note I said "look for death" not "look forward to death". It should be obvious that this does not mean there are people walking around actively syaing "I cant wait to die".

What it means is that often subconciously, death is seen as an end to striving - a peace. Such people will think (maybe only subconciously) "when I die it will be a complete end to me, I will cease to exist and I wont have to worry about it any more". There are lots of people with this attitude and in fact they often fully enjoy life. The attitude is that whatever they do in life it doesn't matter because at the end all goes to oblivion, which can be a comforting thought.

I know lots of people who think like that and none of them are terminally ill . They are my friends, who are happy to drink, smoke and f*** their way through their lives with little regard for consequence because, as one of them said recently "I'm probably not going to live to be that old anyway the way i'm going".

 

[(Q)]

It should be obvious that this does not mean there are people walking around actively syaing "I cant wait to die".

There are in fact millions who think just that - they're called Christians and Muslims and...

I will cease to exist and I wont have to worry about it any more". There are lots of people with this attitude and in fact they often fully enjoy life.

Yes, atheists.

Kidding aside, your point is taken.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

ghost7584: If the bible is true (I happen to know that it is) then You are in a heap of trouble there, boy.!!!!!
*************
M*W: You DON'T know the bible is true, you only assume or believe it to be true. That's a far cry from being proven as true. In the past 5,000-6,000 years, NO ONE HAS PROVEN ANY RELIGION OR RELIGIOUS TEXT TO BE VALID OR TRUE!

Religions were created by men, and their religious texts were written by men who claimed their writings to be inspired by their gods. I use the word "men," because I believe since the beginning of written language, it has been an entirely male-dominated contribution to societal evolution. And, yes, in those male-dominated cultures, they all believed their folk-lored religions and their accompanying texts to be true -- but that doesn't mean any of them were true.

It's understandable why and how the ancient humans feared and awed the sun, solar system, and the elements, because they could kill them dead with one strike of lightning or a flood or earthquake, etc., but that doesn't make their primitive beliefs in the things they couldn't understand or couldn't conquer to be true. There were always rivers to cross, oceans to navigate, mountains to climb, canyons too vast, oppressing heat, fires, deathly cold, wild animals, lack of food, etc., which showed them the limitations to their survival. In order to overcome the fears about their human limitations, they created in their primitive minds that there was a creator who was more powerful than they were. The first object of belief in a higher creator power was the sun. The names of their gods changed to protect the ignorant, but most every religion that ever existed could be traced back, I believe, to the sun, moon, stars, constellations, elements, etc. In fact, the sun was the creator of our world and all that is in it, but modern humans understand the efficacy of the sun's power in the creation of our world, but we no longer worship the sun as a god, well, maybe we still do, on those cold, dreary, rainy, freezing days in smog and air pollutants, as we risk our lives driving the dangerous highways, sometimes bumper-to-bumper, or sometimes too fast, to ensure our survival in the modern world.

 

[Yorda]

Why choose one over the other – what is wrong with exploring both?

Why? Because the outer things are actually inside our mind. If they weren't inside, we couldn't be conscious of them. So, when we watch through our eyes, we actually watch our own mind. When watching it with our eyes, without realizing its true nature, it is hard to understand it.

Nothingness is the absence of something. Looks like it isn’t impossible to talk about nothing after all.

But you're still talking about "something".

A rational argument depends on an evidential basis – your belief doesn’t have one.

You also believe things without having evidence. You believe in a material world, external from yourself, although no one has ever been able to demostrate that such a world exists independently from the mind.

Quite correct, since if I was dead I would be unable to see anything.

You have no evidence that the death of the physical body means nothingness, but still you believe it. Death of the personal self means nothingness (this can happen while our body is still alive), but the universal mind (the real self) doesn't die just because one instrument (body) dies. The user of the instrument, "God" himself, can never die. Because people identify themselves with their body (and person), they think that nothingness comes after the body dies.

 

[MarcAC]

Is this really supposed to be more rational than a belief in the spiritual?

Rhetorical right? Man will never escape religion - if he does he becomes something else.There shall be no more navy in this.

 

[Cris]

Nah - man will escape religion when his intelligence eventually evolves.

 

[Michael]

How can you tell if that was real or just your imagination?
Who else saw this and did you get it on videotape?
Do you have independent verifiable evidence?
Do you suffer from epilepsy or does your family have a history of epilepsy?
Have you experienced any other forms of hallucinations?
If no one else saw this then how do you know it wasn't a hallucination?

Well I guess that answered that!

Ghost, can you re-run your experiment and attach the MPEG of Jesus talking to you for us, Thanks MII

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

Meaningless to those who have not been given the means to understand.

Ahh the arrogance of Christianity - the superiority complex. But it is much simpler - Only the gullible can be convinced there is meaning when presented with such transparent gibberish.

 

[Cris]

Light,

Is this really supposed to be more rational than a belief in the spiritual?

The two are not comparable. One is presented as speculation and goals, while the spiritual is presented as truth which has no support.

If we are really just the sum of our physical parts then 'we' as a seperate entity do not exist.

You probably had a point in mind but failed to make it.

Given the above we could swop bodies with minds etc. maybe edit out undesirable traits via a keyboard. We would have Frankinsteins monster, would we not?

Or another Einstein. So your point is?

If you think of yourself as the emergent result of your neural networks then you might see these issues somewhat differently. It is those patterns that need to be preserved if “you” are to survive. Whether they are retained in a biological medium or an inorganic medium is not important providing the functions remain intact. That such functions can then be morphed into more advanced states is something to explore and encourage.

One of the issues frequently discussed about uploads is the ease of cloning. If you clone your neural networks then are you now two entities. This raises issues of property ownership and identity, among many other things. But it does allow transmission over long distances – i.e. if you transmit your digitized neural patterns to a host system on the other side of the planet or to another planet then you will have effectively achieved teleportation.

 

[Cris]

Yorda,

Because the outer things are actually inside our mind.

No - the outer things are outside that’s why you called them outer. The images of these things are inside our mind. You are confusing the map for the territory.

If they weren't inside, we couldn't be conscious of them.

No – we are conscious of them because we can form images of them. They still exist outside of us.

So, when we watch through our eyes, we actually watch our own mind.

No – our mind is the mechanism that allows us to interpret the images we have received.

When watching it with our eyes, without realizing its true nature, it is hard to understand it.

Only if you are a confused mystic such as you.

But you're still talking about "something".

Explain how the absence of something is still something?

You also believe things without having evidence. You believe in a material world, external from yourself, although no one has ever been able to demonstrate that such a world exists independently from the mind.

But that is irrelevant. Everything is relative to the same frame of reference.

You have no evidence that the death of the physical body means nothingness, but still you believe it.

I believe “nothingness” was your term not mine. My perspective is that death is the cessation of existence. The evidence comes from the 100% rate of billions of people who have died and have never returned.

Death of the personal self means nothingness (this can happen while our body is still alive),

Feels like nonsense. I will take “personal self” to mean your neural networks. When they decay because of a starvation of nutrients or are destroyed by some drastic means then you will permanently cease to exist.

but the universal mind (the real self) doesn't die just because one instrument (body) dies.

The mind is maintained by your neural networks which are part of your body. If your body dies then you will die. Your mind (and hence you) is dependent on your body.

The user of the instrument, "God" himself, can never die.

Feels like more gibberish.

Because people identify themselves with their body (and person), they think that nothingness comes after the body dies.

Some do, and religionists think otherwise but there is no evidence to support the religionist position. Your point is?

 

[Adstar]

Meaningless to those who have not been given the means to understand.

Ahh the arrogance of Christianity - the superiority complex. But it is much simpler - Only the gullible can be convinced there is meaning when presented with such transparent gibberish.

I could have predicted your response. Its a standard response from a proud arrogant athiest to that statement.

There is not "superiority" in that statement because the means of understanding is given from God not obtained by ones own intellectual powers. So your accusation is clearly false gibberish.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[§outh§tar]

Adstar,

If that is the case, then what at all is the point of man's having "intellectual powers" in the first place?

 

[Yorda]

Nah - man will escape religion when his intelligence eventually evolves.

I agree. God has no religion.

No – we are conscious of them because we can form images of them. They still exist outside of us.

If you ponder about what outside and inside is, you can understand what I mean. Our body is a part of the universe, it IS the universe. It is by no means separated from it. What is separated and what is not? Consciousness (mind) separates. This is why we know right and wrong and animals don't. Because of our consciousness, we see the up and down, yet they are just illusions created by earth's attractive force. In space there is no up and down, and in reality there is no outside or inside. Opposites are like a coin with two sides. A coin has two sides, but in reality, it is just one coin without any sides.

Outside means not-inside and inside means not-outside. They are the same thing. Only by separating, it is possible to see something: there is no light without darkness. We separate the outside from the inside, by believing in them, and make them visible.

Only if you are a confused mystic such as you.

The only mystical about me is inside your mind. You cannot find the cause by observing effects (the material universe). What is visible is the result of a cause. There is no visible cause.

I believe “nothingness” was your term not mine. My perspective is that death is the cessation of existence. The evidence comes from the 100% rate of billions of people who have died and have never returned.

How can existence "stop existing"? Existence (nothingness) cannot have a beginning. People don't return on earth with their past form. There are no individual people, only one mind, which experiences infinite personal universes. Some people remember their past lives. I don't remember my birth and I will not see my death, not because I didn't exist, but because I have always existed. Only the body needs to die, and be replaced, because it had a beginning, but the impersonal SELF (existence) had no beginning.

What is visible, must die. You have observed the effects of death, but you (observer) have not seen death, or your birth, because you were not born.

Feels like nonsense. I will take “personal self” to mean your neural networks. When they decay because of a starvation of nutrients or are destroyed by some drastic means then you will permanently cease to exist.

That's a good explanation of observation, but it doesn't explain anything about what happens to the observer. That the observer would cease to exist is as ridiculous as to think that he never existed in the first place. The personal self surely dies after the death of the body, since it IS just the body. Then the universal self clothes itself in another body, which becomes a new person.

The personality is not the SELF (the real ME). I have no personality, because I have all personalities (impersonality). A person is just an illusion (or reflection) created by the body.

Some do, and religionists think otherwise but there is no evidence to support the religionist position. Your point is?

You missed it.

 

[Quantum Quack]

just read the thread, very interesting...congradulations Water!!

I just wanted to ask the question :

Can it ever be claimed by an Immortal that he/she is immortal?

The reasoning is simple enough in that you have to live for eternity to be able to make such a claim and of course you can never say you have lived for eternity with out living for eternity which of course takes an eternal amount of time which can never be lived....dah dah dah.......

Personally I believe that Physical "death" can be postponed indeterminably or indefinitely and involves major changes to the bodies energy cycles. however the greatest challenge is the ability to avoid perpetual boredom as after a million years of so interest in living woudl be a real problem.
A solution to this woudl be to contrive a way to achieve amnesia in a limited way so that yo forget what you lost interest in and become reinterested in it.

By careful manipulation of memory interest can be maintained but is this really living?

Our concept of living must change dramatically for long term death postponement to become a reality.

To actually have the choice whether to live or die and a full choice at that would take some doing.....

 

[Crunchy Cat]

chances are people would forget things as the brain can only store so much.
Long term memory loss would keep some things 'fresh'.

 

[ghost7584]

Ghost,


How can you tell if that was real or just your imagination?
Who else saw this and did you get it on videotape?
Do you have independent verifiable evidence?
Do you suffer from epilepsy or does your family have a history of epilepsy?
Have you experienced any other forms of hallucinations?
If no one else saw this then how do you know it wasn't a hallucination?

Like I said, believe what you want. You are going to do that anyway.

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest".
Line from the song, THE BOXER, by Simon and Garfunkel


Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[ghost7584]

I became a christian from being an agnostic physics student, by doing an experiment to test for the existence of God.

Then, as a physics student, you know that the experiment MUST be repeatable. If I, or anyone else, conducts the same experiment with null results, you also know that your conclusions are invalid, because the initial hypothesis has been falsified.

Of course, when your experiment turns up null results, and you continue to cling to your pet theory, you'll be considered little more than a crackpot.

But of course, as a physics student, you knew that, right?

Part of the evidence from my experiment was:
Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from the New Testament to me, as it applied in my case.

Very well, as a student of the sciences, you should allow us to conduct the same experiment in order for us to test your hypothesis, which you haven't really made clear as yet.

Could you please give us the details of your experiment and the crux of your hypothesis? Thanks in advance!

Believe what you want; you are going to do that anyway.

There's no reason to state such a thing. I'm sure the most ardent atheist here would be tickled pink to have Jesus Christ appear before them, don't ya think?

So, are you game for allowing us to repeat your experiment or are you just blowing smoke?

The way that God has things set up according to the bible, people that really love the truth and don't have pleasure in unrighteousness are going to be worthy to be shown the truth of God from the bible. And people that don't really love the truth and have pleasure in unrighteousness are going to be deceived by strong delusion and be damned. There are scriptures that indicate this. So, there is a sense that you need to be a worthy man just to be allowed to know the truth of God; otherwise it will be withheld from you.
I am telling you this because the experimental controls in my experiment are important to the success of the experiment, just like experimental controls are important for any experiment.
I have this experiment in my files along with some ideas about it to show that it is a genuine experiment, considering what I was trying to get proof of. Someone else compelled me to elaborate on that.
Here is the experiment; the long version.
I have a Bachelor's degree in Physics. I did a scientific experiment
to test for the
existence of God. I simply looked up to the ceiling and asked God to
give me
evidence that He really existed so that I would know and not just
believe. I did this
several times over a period of weeks or months. I assumed that if He
really did
exist, He would do this because He loved me and didn't want me to go
to hell. [That attitude is one of the experimental controls.] I
did this as a serious experiment; it's either true or it isn't. I was
an agnostic
science student at the time. Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can
heal by the
laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists. The Aura energy field around a healer's body can transmit
healing energy to the body
of the patient; this can be filmed by a technique called Kirlian
photography.
http://www.synergy-co.com/kirlian1-6.html
So the healing miracles of Jesus could be true. Later I studied UFOs
and a UFO
researcher pointed out that there are flying objects in the Bible that
are associated
with angels that look like the UFOs that people are taking photgraphs
of today.
So, Bible stories of angels could be true too. I got a book on the
occult. It said
that certain sensitive people and psychics can see into the spirit
world; they can
see little glimpses of spiritual beings that look like points of light
in the air. I
started reading the New testament to see what it said. Around this
time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from
somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts. I also started seeing little colored
flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like
visions, not
really in the physical world. I decided that this was evidence that
demons exist
and they were attacking me with evil thoughts trying to stop me from
becoming a
christian; I saw glimpses into the spirit world during these attacks
that looked like
little colored points of light in the air, like the occult book said.
Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it
seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream. I had an
overwhelming feeling during this vision like I knew that He had all
the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen. I heard His
voice
paraphrasing something written in the Bible.
He called me by my name
and said, you must die before you enter society. Unless the seed die,
the tree cannot bear good fruit. All trees that do not bear fruit,
will be cut down. He was paraphrasing this scripture in the New
Testament:
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it
bringeth forth much fruit.
This scripture goes along with these that follow it.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth
his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my
Father honour.
The interpretation is that when a man comes to Jesus for salvation, to
be saved from hell, that man must allow his old way of living to die,
and he must take on a new life of serving Jesus, so that he can bear
good fruit for the Kingdom of God.
Immediately after that I woke up. I asked God to give me proof; He
gave me
proof. I have been a fundamentalist christian ever since. If you
really want proof,
ask for it seriously, like I did. Have the idea in your mind that if
God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.
That is one of the experimental controls.
In the New Testament Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the
life. No one comes to the Father but
by Me. The only way to get to God is through Jesus Christ, all other
ways are
false. It is not enough just to know that God exists, you can only get
to heaven
through christianity all other religions lead to hell. When Jesus spoke
I heard one word after another like normal speech, but when I thought
about it, all of the words seemed to have happened at the same time.
It was like time did not make any sense. His voice was like that of
any normal man, not to deep, and not too high in pitch. The words
seemed to fill my entire being as if they were put into me with real
power.
This happened to me in 1975. Jesus was coming to me in a darkened room
so I did not get a completely clear look at him. At the time, I
thought he looked similar to Max Von Sidow in the movie THE GREATEST
STORY EVER TOLD, except His hair was all the way down to His
shoulders; longer than in the movie. I did notice darkness around His
chin as if He had a short beard. His face is different from Max Von
Sydow's but there are similarities. He seems to look younger than
that, and more cheerful.
When He said the words, "will be cut down", the tone of His voice
changed as if He did not want to frighten me. After the words were
finished, He put His hand on my back and smiled at me and disappeared.

Further elaboration on the idea that this is a genuine experiment if you consider what I was trying to get proof of:

You need to consider what type of a test I was doing. I was probing
for an answer to a question that is not bound to the physical world.
True reality as we observe it is composed of the physical world, which
is easily tested by physics and chemistry, and it is also composed of
the mental dimension, which does really exist, but not in the physical
world. [Your thoughts and desires and will do really exist, but not in
the physical world. They are connected to the physical world by your
physical body.] If God does exist, as He is described, then He is like
a universal mind or consciousness, that created everything and is in
control of everything. To test for a universal mind, I needed to do an
unusual experiment. The reason that I decided that these points of
light were evidence of demons is because of this:
The occult book that dealt with demons and spirits said that glimpses
into the Spirit world looked like points of light in the air.
And also, I would hear evil voices in my mind, threatening me and
saying the kind of things that demons would say [threats, insults
against me and God, etc...], and I heard these thoughts as if they
were coming from the points of light. As if the points of light were
appearing, saying these things to me telepathically, so that I heard
them in my mind, and then disappearing.
This was surely a phenomenon that looked to me like attacks by evil
spirits or demons. After I became a Christian I prayed to Jesus Christ
to ask Him to protect me from the attacks of demons, and the problem
went away. According to the Bible, the Devil and his demons are
controlling everyone that is not a real Christian, to a greater or
lesser degree. (Some people are completely demon possessed.) When you
try to become a Christian, you are breaking free from the demon's
control and that is when you will notice them trying to fight against
you. If Satan already has you moving in the wrong direction, he does
not need to fight you; he has already got you. Try to become a real
Christian, and try to break free from the Devil's control, then he
will start to fight against you to try to prevent you from becoming a
Christian and getting right with God. This is what the evidence
suggests that I was experiencing when I started to become a Christian,
in 1975.
Also, these points of light that I was seeing, looked like little
visions, not like a real physical phenomenon that happens in the
physical world. Therefore, I did not consider that a physical form of
energy was of any importance here. Physical energy of the sort that
physics studies, might not have been involved.
Remember, the mental dimension is real and does exist, but not in the
physical world, just like your thoughts and desires exist, but not in
the physical world. Your mind is connected to the physical world
through your physical body, so there is a definite connection between
these two different dimensions. Both dimensions really exist.
I had to do an unusual type of experiment because of the unususal
nature of what I was testing for: - The Existence of God.

Experimental controls associated with my experiment:
Believe that if God really exists then He does care about you and He
does not want you to go to hell. Believe that He would prove Himself
to you to prevent you from going to Hell, if He really does exist.
Ask God to prove to you that He exists, several times over a period of
weeks or months. Have the idea that if He really does prove Himself, then
you will serve Him, - which means read the New Testament and try to obey it.
Have patience to wait for the proof.
I was involved in Science and that is the kind of proof that God gave
me. If you are involved in something else God will probably prove
Himself to you in a way that you can best understand. He meets you
where you are at.
[Proper use of experimental controls is important to the success of any experiment.]
God looks on the heart. If you are just playing a game or unwilling to serve Him, He will know it, and may withold the knowledge from you because you are not worthy to receive it.
Jesus said He taught in parables so that the crowd just passing by would not know what He was talking about. The explanation of the parables was given only to the disciples that decided to follow Him.- There are scriptures that show this.

Jesus Christ said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.

Do not allow yourself to be deceived by the many false religions of
the World.
False religions lead to hell. The New Testament, of the Christian
Bible, is the real way that leads to heaven and to God. (The King
James version is the most accurate.)
You can read the New Testament for free online at this website:
http://www.usaquality.com/bible/list_bcv/all.html
You can listen to the New Testament being read by someone else, for
free online at this website:
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html Start with Matthew
and go all the way through to Revelation.
It is good to ask God to teach you what the New Testament really means
before you read it or listen to it.

Caution: Devils really exist and they have telepathic contact to the minds of men. How much control Satan and his devils have over your thinking right now will affect the experiment to some extent. If you manage to become a really saved Christian, God's Holy Spirit will be sent to you, to break you free from the devil's deceptions.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.