Imagine God

[Neildo]

ok I tried,and I came to conclusion there is no God
gods definition is contradictory!

Heh, and just who made the definition of God?

All we can do is think and think and think of what he/she/it is, and THAT's IT. We'll never know so of course there's going to be contradictions and the like because it's all from the thoughts of men and women and well, we're far from perfect, lol.

- N

 

[JustARide]

The notion of a "God" doesn't creep me out, but the Christian God scares the shit out of me.

I believe in a God who digs Radiohead, Kubrick films, and masturbation. He punishes the uber-sucky people (eg. Hitler, Stalin, Ryan Seacrest) with temporary damnation, the length being based on the severity of their crimes (torture, rape, greenlighting Scooby Doo 2). In Heaven, people will engage in an ongoing orgy with the celebrity crushes of their youth. Lennon, Beethoven, and Hendrix will jam every night from midnight to three. Jesus, Buddha, and Vishnu appear regularly at the Heaven Comedy Store where they do stand-up (mostly anti-fundamentalist/blue material). And Microsoft won't crash every three fucking seconds.

And the great thing is... I have just as much proof for my God as Christians have for their version.

Josh

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I consider myself to be a deep thinker.
When neccessary.
Sometimes my job allows me alot of time to think.
This evening, I began to consider the possibility of an existence of a god.
For many of you, reading this, this will seem to be just another shallow thread. More talk about God blah blah.
But in this case I challenge you to consider the possibility very intensely.
My intent in this thread is not a debate as to whether or not there is or is not a god, but a question of what if...........
Does it creep you out?
Make you scared.
Or what?

T'would b cool.

 

[Q25]

Heh, and just who made the definition of God?

people who wrote the bible did,thats why I gave the link that explains all contradictions nicely.

All we can do is think and think and think of what he/she/it is, and THAT's IT. We'll never know so of course there's going to be contradictions and the like because it's all from the thoughts of men and women and well, we're far from perfect, lol.
- N

how can we be far from perfect when according to biblegod we are created by a perfect allmighty being?
and in His image!
did he make us imperfect?
then Hes not allmighty.or hes evil.
if Hes not allmighty why ask Him in prayer for anything?

 

[Neildo]

people who wrote the bible did,thats why I gave the link that explains all contradictions nicely.

Exactly, and that's my point. People wrote the definition of God which is why there's contradictions and the like. Just because there are contradictions in the definition in which PEOPLE made, it doesn't mean there isn't an Almighty Creator. It's all guess work on our part because there is no way to prove or disprove an Almighty Creator. I can write a huge essay trying to describe you and I'm sure I'd be 100% wrong but that doesn't mean you don't exist. My errors shouldn't determine your existance.

how can we be far from perfect when according to biblegod we are created by a perfect allmighty being?
and in His image!
did he make us imperfect?
then Hes not allmighty.or hes evil.
if Hes not allmighty why ask Him in prayer for anything?

We were created in our Creator's "image". Does that mean we're our Creator 100%? Heck no. People read too much into that. As for our Creator making us imperfect; what is your definition of perfection in regards to us? I actually think we're as close to perfection towards being like our demi-god creators because soon we shall become one.

And as to why ask the Almighty for anything in prayer? Don't. He/she/it is much too busy and since we're not his only creations in this universe, good luck with him/her/it getting to all of them and us.

Sorry to tell ya, but we're on our own. Just like a parent, we're helped to first get develeped and once we're a bit more mature, we're left to ourselves to learn and advance. It's time for us to be adults in this physical plane. Once we serve our time here and learn everything there is to learn, we graduate to the next plane of existance.

- N

 

[MarcAC]

What bothers me is that people believe in free will and that God is all knowing. That makes no sense.

For some the converse makes no sense (Is Knowledge a Verb?)

 

[MarcAC]

how can we be far from perfect when according to biblegod we are created by a perfect allmighty being?

Ever heard of a term called entropy? Maybe radioactive decay... you start with Alumium (35 I think) and you end up with Magnesium! Interesting how all these natural processes seem to correlate don't you think?

 

[Neildo]

What bothers me is that people believe in free will and that God is all knowing. That makes no sense.

I don't see how that wouldn't make sense. All-knowing doesn't mean that God manipulates everything to his way such as the belief of a predetermined fate. All-knowing just means that, he knows all.

Think of God as one huge spiritual computer and there's a tiny little spiritual chip in us. We're all uplinked to him/her/it so he/she/it is able to know everything that's going on. It just makes God aware of everything, that's it. Free-will can easily coincide with an all-knowing God. Heck, that's what's going to happen here on earth someday with Big Brother so why is it impossible for the Almighty?

And another reason why I highly doubt God manipulates things is due to good and evil balancing itself out. He/she/it lets people get away with bad deeds and do good deeds so there's no real reason to manipulate or change anything because of that probability balance.

- N

 

[SkippingStones]

"I think therefore I am"
But, even when I don't think, I am.
Ideas come from thinking.
"free will" is an idea.
So, whether or not there is "free will",
I am.

 

[Katazia]

Neildo,

All-knowing doesn't mean that God manipulates everything to his way such as the belief of a predetermined fate. All-knowing just means that, he knows all.

I think you are missing an important point – “all-knowing” included knowing all future events.

Think of God as one huge spiritual computer and there's a tiny little spiritual chip in us. We're all uplinked to him/her/it so he/she/it is able to know everything that's going on. It just makes God aware of everything, that's it.

As yet computers cannot see into the future, the claim is that God can – that makes a big difference.

Free-will can easily coincide with an all-knowing God.

Not if God knows what all your future actions are going to be. If he knows them then everything you are about to do will be predetermined and your perception of free-will will be just an illusion.

And another reason why I highly doubt God manipulates things is due to good and evil balancing itself out. He/she/it lets people get away with bad deeds and do good deeds so there's no real reason to manipulate or change anything because of that probability balance.

But if he knows everything that is going to happen and he designed the entire universe then isn’t everything just running according to his ultimate plan? He doesn’t need to manipulate anything since he worked out everything from the moment he created the universe. And of course you can do absolutely nothing about it.

Kat

 

[MarcAC]

"I think therefore I am"
But, even when I don't think, I am.

I like that, thus, why do you use therefore in the former statement?

Ideas come from thinking.
"free will" is an idea.

How do you know you think? Isn't that an idea? So the idea of thinking comes from thinking. Nice don't you think?

So, whether or not there is "free will",
I am.

... and by the definition of choice; I choose.

 

[MarcAC]

As yet computers cannot see into the future, the claim is that God can – that makes a big difference.

Not really that God can see into the future, but that God knows know time. It's like time is a ruler he sees the whole ruler. He's not some "future-seeing psychic" restricted to a nano-unit length of it.

Not if God knows what all your future actions are going to be. If he knows them then everything you are about to do will be predetermined and your perception of free-will will be just an illusion.

You know Special Relativity Theory by Einstein has been verified many times by experiment, and they are still testing it even now. The consequences of it are that things happen one way for you while they happen another way for someone else... and it's not something apparent... it actually happens. So time passes more quickly for one guy according to you but (according to hime) time passes more quickly for you... stuff like that if you don't know it already.

Anyway, similarly we are here embedded in that nano-unit length of the ruler and we see the choices we make... can't argue with that... we definitely choose from our perspective. But God stays from His perspective and sees us just playing it all out. Thus to God, we might not be choosing, or, as well we might be choosing. But to us we are choosing. So just like time dilations and length contractions aren't illusions... free will isn't an illusion. It's just another consequence of everything being relative.

 

[Neildo]

Well, this all depends on one's belief about God's awareness. Yes, many believe that the Almighty knows what will even happen in the future, but I don't. I believe he/she/it is all-knowing in the sense of having some sort of board game or battle plans lying in front of him/her/it, but he/she/it doesn't know what we're going to do until we do it.

I don't think anyone or anything, not even the Almighty him/her/itself, can know the future unless we ourselves, right now, are living in a reoccuring timeline in that everything happening right now has already happened before. People can create things and teach their creations things, but whether or not they choose to follow what they've learned from their creator or somehow gains a new insight, their creator will never know. Once that ball is in motion, it's time to sit back and enjoy the game. So unless we're living in God's version of TiVO, I doubt he/she/it is all-knowing in the sense of knowing the future.

- N

 

[JustARide]

Not really that God can see into the future, but that God knows know time. It's like time is a ruler he sees the whole ruler. He's not some "future-seeing psychic" restricted to a nano-unit length of it.You know Special Relativity Theory by Einstein has been verified many times by experiment, and they are still testing it even now. The consequences of it are that things happen one way for you while they happen another way for someone else... and it's not something apparent... it actually happens. So time passes more quickly for one guy according to you but (according to hime) time passes more quickly for you... stuff like that if you don't know it already.

Anyway, similarly we are here embedded in that nano-unit length of the ruler and we see the choices we make... can't argue with that... we definitely choose from our perspective. But God stays from His perspective and sees us just playing it all out. Thus to God, we might not be choosing, or, as well we might be choosing. But to us we are choosing. So just like time dilations and length contractions aren't illusions... free will isn't an illusion. It's just another consequence of everything being relative.

Oh, how I love it when Christians take a sudden interest in relativity.

Tell me, if time is like a ruler and God sees the whole ruler, how is that not tantamount to "knowing the future"? That's all of time (something I think would have to include future events, no?).

And if "everything is relative" as far our experiences (not just ideas like time) go, how does that prove that choice is <i>not</i> an illusion? If all of time is a ruler, seen by God, and it is merely our relation to this ruler that leads us to believe we are making concrete decisions here and now, wouldn't that actually reinforce the idea that free will is an illusion, a mere product of our proximity to this ruler?

Also, are you saying that relativity, as a scientific theory, actually suggests that time as perceived by, say, a torturer and a torturee is actually two different lengths of time, not just the result of their differing states of mind? A kind of "mind makes it real" argument? I'm not sure that exactly what Einstein had in mind...

Josh

 

[MarcAC]

Oh, how I love it when Christians take a sudden interest in relativity.

Heh... sudden? That's quite audacious of you... Josh

Tell me, if time is like a ruler and God sees the whole ruler, how is that not tantamount to "knowing the future"? That's all of time (something I think would have to include future events, no?).

O.k. I should've made the post more transparent. I was not suggesting anything to the contrary, I was just trying to enforce the idea that God's time is not our time. He is not restricted by it... so He doesn't necessarily see into the future, he sees all time. If you look at a ruler from a distance are you looking at the whole ruler or are you looking from one end and seeing the other? Just wanted to highlight the nuance.

And if "everything is relative" as far our experiences (not just ideas like time) go, how does that prove that choice is not an illusion? If all of time is a ruler, seen by God, and it is merely our relation to this ruler that leads us to believe we are making concrete decisions here and now, wouldn't that actually reinforce the idea that free will is an illusion, a mere product of our proximity to this ruler?

No, it doesn't 'lead us to believe'... The fact is we ARE making concrete decisions.

Relativity doesn't enforce an idea of illision. It just means that the way you see it is the way it happens for you. And the way the other person sees it happening for you, although it's different from what you see happening to you, that's what is happening to you. So... two different things are happening to you at the same time according to two different perspectives but they are the same thing. Heh, man I love relativity.

Also, are you saying that relativity, as a scientific theory, actually suggests that time as perceived by, say, a torturer and a torturee is actually two different lengths of time, not just the result of their differing states of mind? A kind of "mind makes it real" argument? I'm not sure that exactly what Einstein had in mind...

Yes and no. It's not anything to do with the mind (let's not go there), just a property of space and time. But don't make it too simple. I'm not talking about some girl standing by you in some sort of dominatrix fashion.

The point is that God's frame of reference is totally different from ours so we in our frame of reference make decisions/choices, God either sees or doesn't see us making decisions (He might consider them decisions: or not) but from our frame, we still make decisions; analogical to me in my reference frame measuring/observing one length of time while you in your reference frame observes the time I observe as another time, but it's not an illusion for anyone involved, it happens! Get it?... if you didn't already. It's all just an analogy. It works though.

You know a christian guy came up with the whole relativity idea first you know? [bragging]. Galileo.... if you didn't know [proudly].

Lata... Josh.

 

[Q25]

Just because there are contradictions in the definition in which PEOPLE made, it doesn't mean there isn't an Almighty Creator. It's all guess work on our part because there is no way to prove or disprove an Almighty Creator.

exactly,
as soon as you put labels,definitions on Gods they will crumble and disapear.

only thing I would call our creator would be the Universe.which everything is part of,
to think there is some allmighty dude living in the sky who controls peoples lifes,as xians do is nuts.

And as to why ask the Almighty for anything in prayer? Don't. He/she/it is much too busy and since we're not his only creations in this universe, good luck with him/her/it getting to all of them and us.

come on TOO BUSY?
He is ALLMIGHTY,
He can do anything!
at least thats what religious people believe

Sorry to tell ya, but we're on our own. Just like a parent, we're helped to first get develeped and once we're a bit more mature, we're left to ourselves to learn and advance. It's time for us to be adults in this physical plane. Once we serve our time here and learn everything there is to learn, we graduate to the next plane of existance.

you listening believers?
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when you need a helping hand you will find one at the end of your arm

 

[Q25]

The point is that God's frame of reference is totally different from ours so we in our frame of reference make decisions/choices, God either sees or doesn't see us making decisions (He might consider them decisions: or not) but from our frame, we still make decisions; analogical to me in my reference frame measuring/observing one length of time while you in your reference frame observes the time I observe as another time, but it's not an illusion for anyone involved, it happens! Get it?... if you didn't already. It's all just an analogy.

It works though.

no it doesnt!

theres a word for what you just said,I believe its "gobledygook"aka nonsense.


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if you cant dazle them with briliance baffle them with bullshit!

 

[MarcAC]

no it doesnt!

Yes it does!

theres a word for what you just said,I believe its "gobledygook"aka nonsense.

You can also call it nouns like gibberish, jargon; or describe it as "non-descript". I advise you, however, never to refer to something that you don't particularly understand as "nonesense" until you can demonstrate its nonesensical nature.

if you cant dazle them with briliance baffle them with bullshit!

So I see where you're coming from... but I'm not particularly baffled just yet.

 

[canxbluest]

I dont have a religion at the moment, simply because While most religions have good values in them etc.. The whole thing does not make complete sense to me.

The whole notion of there beign a GOD who according to most religions "we were created to worship GOD".

If god simply created us to worship him... Then i think he has some insecurities... Or he is a lonely guy. However none of this is possible becuase to be the GOD as people know it. HE is the omnipotent.....So the whole thing is irrational.

The idea of GOD having a predetermined path for all of us.. just makes him seem like a cruel GOD because then he made us to suffer ..."like pets". ridiculus.

I have come up to other xplanations to what is GOD.. I will post em up later as i have a class to go to at the moment....

 

[MarcAC]

The whole notion of there beign a GOD who according to most religions "we were created to worship GOD".

If god simply created us to worship him... Then i think he has some insecurities... Or he is a lonely guy. However none of this is possible becuase to be the GOD as people know it. HE is the omnipotent.....So the whole thing is irrational.

Maybe God would want us to worship Him for our sakes, not His? Studies have shown that relgious people live longer happier lives. Who knows...?