I'm tired of this... all Christians please come here...

I disagree with your viewpoint, but respect it in the sense that I think it's a good value, that is, love for others is high priority. However,

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It is more general than self-focused (close relationships, for example). It is Love for other human-beings that you don't even know. It is to Love just by the sake of Loving.

I don't want to assume here, but by this do you imply that secular humanism is not equivalent? Not in the sense that you call God's love perfect, but in the sense that an atheist with a similar value system is lesser in compassion than an theist with your beliefs?

If so, I'd have to agree with ThatJerk's assessment of you putting yourself on some higher plane than the unbeliever.
 
I love you all too. religion is great making people good to bad there are so many out there that just don't get it. people that are jerks but since they go church they think their saved. hope they rot in their hell!
 
Originally posted by ThatJerk
Funny that I, a shameless pagan, probably have more genuine love for people than a lot of Christians.
ThatJerk: - Though I do not know you, I'm probably on solid ground granting that your statement is true, as are many of the statements that Tiassa and others have made about Christians and our need to get our house order. Truthseeker was attempting to do just that when he directed those questions as a rebuke to us Christians who were not acting in accord with what we say we believe.

What we all need to do IMHO is to live a life examined against the measure of what we hold to be true. Most of us would find, regardless of what we believe, that we often fall short of our ideals.
 
TruthSeeker

The kind of Love I speak here is compassionate and altruistic. It is more general than self-focused (close relationships, for example). It is Love for other human-beings that you don't even know. It is to Love just by the sake of Loving.

It is, is it? Funny how you just said "mine is bigger than yours" with a straight face.

Love is THE ONLY Law of God.

Like the love he shows his wayward children for disbelieving him?

I was personalizing It:

quote:
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It is important to personalize those things. What is your score in a total of six?
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That's why I stated the question as "I".

Precisely my point, you're asking people to personalise their love for the purpose of quantifying it. Namely, by telling them to check for these things, you presumably have gone through the checklist yourself and have a fairly high score. Namely, you're hanging your superior 'love' out of your pants for all to see.

Again, not personilized. And I'm talking about God's kind of Love, which is perfect.

Liar, you just told me that it was personalised.

And regarding God's perfect love, refer to Exodus 4:11.

"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"

Namely, god in all his love is personally responsible for people being born with disabilities. Nice guy.

When you focus outward you start judging what you Love. For example, if you focus on someone, you will start to see some imperfections in this person and will start to apply conditions to your love. But if you focus on God (which IS Love HIMSELF), than you won't focus it outwardly but rather on Itself. You will just Love by the simple act of Loving.

So I need to love love... to love? But how can I love love properly if I can't love properly in the first place? Maybe love is the only thing that we can love perfectly without loving love first.

All that head-wrecking crap aside, I think I'll take my own definition of love, thanks; your god has a habit of punishing those he 'loves' rather spectacularly and for little reason aside from personal pride.

You say that god is perfect love, which (I understand) is true unconditional love ie that any and all slights are instantly forgiven with no grudge of any kind.

This of course means that no sacrifice is necessary to forgive, or else this love would not be unconditional. My question is this: why did God sacrifice his only son so that our sins would be forgiven? Why would this sacrifice be necessary? If his love was unconditional then bygones would be bygones and all that song and dance and pain and suffering would have been unnecessary.

Humble... With your words, it wouldn't be foolish to assume that what you call me is the mere reflection of who you really are. But I won't asssume things as you and others do. You don't know me. You don't know my nature. So how can you really judge me like that?

"Who you really are"? By this statement you seem to be accusing me of being a Christian who hangs his 'love' out of his pants for all to 'ooh' and 'ahh' over. Sorry, but you pulled the wrong stock-arguement out of your butt there.

"*snap snap* nuh uh... you don't know me, girlfriend!"

Puh-leeze. I judge you like that because your words reek of self-centredness and self-righteousness. You make no secret of the fact that you believe your brand of love to be better than mine.

Do you want the quotation marks bigger? I'm NOT judging people as "little children", I'm just stating the kind of Love that we have for little cute babies...
... AAAAWWWWWWW

Yes, 'cute little babies' who don't know any better. Really, your tact is matched only by your astounding ignorance and rapier wit.

"Awwww, look at the widdle atheist, he's so cute! Look at how he questions the universe when it's all laid out in this nifty package in the bible! Poor little guy, I just HAVE to help him!"
 
Truthseeker,
By now you know my beliefs, but none-the-less your "all-love" approach is admirable. I see alot of people giving you flak for it, but all I see is people giving excuses to you, and themselves, as to why they aren't capable of it. I haven't seen a single reason as to why your aproach is wrong that holds up any further than acting as a means for excusing their own short-comings. I can't say I'm capable of loving indiscriminately as you are, but I see it as a goal. Attributing it to God is debatable, but a pointless debate at that.
 
A Message to Christians....How Soon We Forget!

In reply Jesus declared, " I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:3

These words of Jesus (as recorded in the book of John), represent the very foundation of fundemental, protestant, evangelical Christianity. However, every professing 'born-again' Christian should remember that at one point in their lives, they too did not believe like others did, care about like others did, or give much thought (if any) like others did, to the word's of Jesus (or anyone else) as found in the Bible. They should remember staunchly defending whatever their thoughts and feelings were regarding their spiritual belief's and staunchly defending their right to do so. They should remember becoming irritated and frustrated with those whom attempted to 'force feed' Christianity to them. They should remember losing life-long friends and relatives due to their lack of 'spiritual' alliance with them. Then, somewhere along the line, something changed and there was a 'personal' interest taken in the words of God, Jesus and the Bible. Lastly, they made a 'personal' decision to accept Jesus as Lord (meaning gave Him lordship of their lives) and were 'born-again' (meaning became a spiritually new person) and set-off to then live as a 'Christian' (or follower of Christ), leaving their former, spiritual-self behind.

Unfortunately (and as I myself once did), many Christians forget who they once were comfortable being; where they were once contently at spiritually; what their thoughts and feelings once were and most importantly, that every individual is unique and has his/her own (God given) free will. As Christians, we are to present the Gospel (meaning good news), not demand it be accepted. We are to live the Gospel, not attempt to force others to. We are to love 'unconditionally' as Jesus loved, not demand to be loved. And most importantly, that we mature as Christians by not by merely listening to, reading and sharing the messages of the Bible, but rather by putting them into practice.

In closing, I'll share the following Proverb and ask that any professing, born-again Christian reading this message would reflect on it's applicable relavence in regard to their posts on this site:

"Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing." Proverbs 12:18

If we as Chrisitans do harm or hurt others (either emotionally or spiritually), by employing 'reckless words', we are committing a sin of great magnitude and must repent of it. Employing reckless and harmful words also is a sign of NOT being wise, NOT maturing in our Christian walk, and is NOT Christ-like nor God-honoring behavior.

May God bless us ALL, have mercy on us ALL, and speak to ALL of those that wish to hear Him.

~ Disciple of Jesus
 
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Thank you..........its very true and very easy to forget what you were once like! thanks for pointing it out

edit:

Truthseeker, if your pastor is interested in the ONE project I'll be happy to tell you/him/her all about it! let me know!
 
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Loving everyone is unnatural and diminishes the value of your love for the deserving.

Your not going to be able to love everyone with that kind of attitude.

I figure that you don't have to love the stranger on the bus, but that you should respect that person, trust that person a little, and even make conversation. Be kind, you dont have to love the person, just be kind.

Fell in love with a girl
fell in love once and almost completely
she's in love with the world
but sometimes these feelings
can be so misleading
she turns and says "are you alright?"
I said "I must be fine cause my heart's still beating"
She says "come and kiss me by the riverside, bobby says it's fine he don't consider it cheating"

I love the white stripes.
 
notme2000

By now you know my beliefs, but none-the-less your "all-love" approach is admirable. I see alot of people giving you flak for it, but all I see is people giving excuses to you, and themselves, as to why they aren't capable of it.

You should consider investing in some contact lenses if that's all you see. I would be thrilled if TruthSeeker were truely a practitioner of the 'all-love' thing, but all I see him professing is that infuriating holier-than-thou 'love' that Christians of his seeming ilk have for all the world, ESPECIALLY those in the world who don't have the Light of God (cue choir of angels) in their hearts.

I find it interesting that you think I'm giving excuses to all involved (myself included) simply to cover my inability to 'love' as TruthSeeker can, because I'm not even making excuses; I AM incapable of his kind of 'love' because I don't hang my love out of my pants to show the world how holy and Jesus-like I am. I feel no need to flaunt the fact that I in fact derive satisfaction from giving myself selflessly to pretty well anybody; I don't create a checklist for everybody to follow with the admonition 'you better have these six points covered, or else you're a selfish bastard.'

People call me naive, and they think I give people too much credit; they may be right. I don't claim to be holy, or right or better than anyone; I don't even give it a second thought. However, I DO take issue with TruthSeeker and his arrogant and holier-than-thou 'love' that he insists on foisting upon the world. That kind of forced, religious love is little more than a sadly misguided individual chasing the heaven carrot.

Even if TruthSeeker really does have love for all and sundry, it has been perverted by his religion into what I describe.

I haven't seen a single reason as to why your aproach is wrong that holds up any further than acting as a means for excusing their own short-comings

Mm. Chew on this:

It is Love for other human-beings that you don't even know.

This was posted by TruthSeeker in his reply to my first statement. If you can prove to me that, with this statement, he is NOT elevating himself USING HIS BRAND OF 'LOVE' above myself and all others who disagree with him, then I'll eat something unpleasant of your choosing.

I can't say I'm capable of loving indiscriminately as you are, but I see it as a goal.

Pity. I like you much more without that self-righteous arrogance.
 
ThatJerk,

It is, is it? Funny how you just said "mine is bigger than yours" with a straight face.
I'm not saying it is my Love, I'm saying that I'm talking about this kind of Love (compassion, altruism)...

Like the love he shows his wayward children for disbelieving him?
Hell is not God's choice or nothing that you think it is. Hell is "place" where people that don't want to be with God go. They chose not to go to heaven. It is their own choice. And hell is the simple separation from God.

Precisely my point, you're asking people to personalise their love for the purpose of quantifying it. Namely, by telling them to check for these things, you presumably have gone through the checklist yourself and have a fairly high score. Namely, you're hanging your superior 'love' out of your pants for all to see.
I didn't asked people to personalize their Love, I asked them to personalize the questions. And it is not a question of getting a high score, it is a question on having or not the Love I'm speaking about.

Liar, you just told me that it was personalised.
You know I meant the other...:bugeye:

Namely, god in all his love is personally responsible for people being born with disabilities. Nice guy.
God is not responsible for those things. However, a mother that somkes during pregnancy is responsible for this kind of thing.

So I need to love love... to love? But how can I love love properly if I can't love properly in the first place? Maybe love is the only thing that we can love perfectly without loving love first.
Are you a Christian? Do you at least have some Love? If not, than you cannot Love properly. If you are a Christian or is by nature a loving person, than you are able to Love "properly".

All that head-wrecking crap aside, I think I'll take my own definition of love, thanks; your god has a habit of punishing those he 'loves' rather spectacularly and for little reason aside from personal pride.
He doesn't punish anyone. People punish themselves. People sometimes like to punish themselves over and over again. And when things like 9/11 happen, people say it is warth of God... I say it is wrath of men. It is not God that punishes, but people that choose to be punished by their own free will.

You say that god is perfect love, which (I understand) is true unconditional love ie that any and all slights are instantly forgiven with no grudge of any kind.
Yes they are. As long as you RECEIVE the forgiveness. If I try to give you a present and you say "no, I don't want". I try again and you insist not to receive. What can I do for you to receive? Nothing. You have to receive by your own choice. The same with forgiveness. You won't hev it if you don't accept it.

This of course means that no sacrifice is necessary to forgive, or else this love would not be unconditional. My question is this: why did God sacrifice his only son so that our sins would be forgiven? Why would this sacrifice be necessary? If his love was unconditional then bygones would be bygones and all that song and dance and pain and suffering would have been unnecessary.
The universe has Laws...

Romans 5:16-19
"16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. "

"Who you really are"? By this statement you seem to be accusing me of being a Christian who hangs his 'love' out of his pants for all to 'ooh' and 'ahh' over. Sorry, but you pulled the wrong stock-arguement out of your butt there.
WHAT!?!?

Puh-leeze. I judge you like that because your words reek of self-centredness and self-righteousness. You make no secret of the fact that you believe your brand of love to be better than mine.
I'm not talking about my Love, I'm talking about God's Love. Although after listening to you, I might even say that my Love is indeed better than yours...

"Awwww, look at the widdle atheist, he's so cute! Look at how he questions the universe when it's all laid out in this nifty package in the bible! Poor little guy, I just HAVE to help him!"
Indeed...:rolleyes:
But Jesus was referring to everyone including Christians. He wasn't speaking just of atheists. In fact, there is distinction between "children of darkness" adn "children of light"...
 
notme2000,

By now you know my beliefs, but none-the-less your "all-love" approach is admirable. I see alot of people giving you flak for it, but all I see is people giving excuses to you, and themselves, as to why they aren't capable of it. I haven't seen a single reason as to why your aproach is wrong that holds up any further than acting as a means for excusing their own short-comings. I can't say I'm capable of loving indiscriminately as you are, but I see it as a goal. Attributing it to God is debatable, but a pointless debate at that.
I'm aslo still working towards the perfect Love. No... I didn't reach it, but as I have consciousness of It I tend to share the information with others... ;)
 
Disciple of Jesus,

Thanks for your add. :)
I hope other... Christians... in those forums read it also :)

Oh... and welcome to sciforums! :)
 
Jaxom,

I don't want to assume here, but by this do you imply that secular humanism is not equivalent? Not in the sense that you call God's love perfect, but in the sense that an atheist with a similar value system is lesser in compassion than an theist with your beliefs?
A big difference betwen a theist's Love and an atheist's love is that an atheist can't do miracles, because s/he doesn't believe they exist. They can also not comprehend what Love in the greater sense of unconditonal Love for everybody. For example, an atheist can have compassion for a homeless person, but I don't believe an atheist can feel any kind of Love or compassion for someone like Hittler or Osama Bin Laden.
 
I, as a scientist feel I should mention that how one loves their god is not something I can argue with and I feel that as a good atheist trying to question why one loves their faith is just plain unhonorable! It like asking a person why they love their mother… even if their mother is a psychotic dominatrix does not mean that you can question there love does it? Thatjerk you should be ashamed of your self… I know you may have heard this before but you are a jerk!

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
For example, an atheist can have compassion for a homeless person, but I don't believe an atheist can feel any kind of Love or compassion for someone like Hittler or Osama Bin Laden.

now that just is not true :eek: :mad: As I can see you have not yet reach at state of nirvana and have much to complete before you can truly love!
 
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Vienna,

I don't need god to help me believe in love for others.
God is Love. Therefore, you need God to Love.

WellCookedFetus,

now that just is not true As I can see you have not yet reach at state of nirvana and have much to complete before you can truly love!
:confused:???????
 
TruthSeeker

If you can spew forth such a cruel and obviously hateful remake then you must not have pure love for atheist! And if you do not know what nirvana is then you are also ignorant since that is what this whole post is about! Though yes nirvana is Buddha’s translation of unrelenting love and a state of impure thought it is what we are talking about… though in Christian terms.
 
How Can ANYONE Love....As Jesus Loved Us

John 15:12
"12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."

Seems a lofty task, yet wouldn't the world be an awesome place if doing so became a goal for all mankind? Let's think about this. How can each of us, in our own way, everyday and in our own circle of existence, begin to show a greater level of love for others? It all begins with four components. These are: respect, understanding, patience and compassion. If indeed, we all treated others with the same level of these components as we ourselves wish to be treated, we could then say we're closer to loving as Jesus Christ did. I doubt anyone of us will ever achieve parity, but it sure pays huge dividends just striving to improve. May God bless us all -

~ Disciple of Jesus
 
Vienna,

If you Love, how can God NOT be within you?


WellCookedFetus,

If you can spew forth such a cruel and obviously hateful remake then you must not have pure love for atheist! And if you do not know what nirvana is then you are also ignorant since that is what this whole post is about! Though yes nirvana is Buddha? translation of unrelenting love and a state of impure thought it is what we are talking about?though in Christian terms.
Cruel and hateful remark? What are you talking about?
Nirvana is much more related to peace then to Love. It is an state of unatachement with material things, which leads to inner peace and inner joy and consequently the complete abscene of suffering. It's actually very helpfull with Love too, although it is not Love in Itself.
 
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