I'm tired of this... all Christians please come here...

[TruthSeeker]

Please, carefully read this and be honest with yourself...

1 John 4:7
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. "

So if you Love, you know God. Do you really know God? Do you really have an initmate relationship with Him?

1 John 4:12
"12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. "

Does God really abide in you? Are you really aware of His presence within you? Do you really have a close relationship with Him.

John 15:12
"12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."

How did Jesus Loved us?

Romans 13:8
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law."[/B]

Are you really fullfilling the Law?

Let me help you answer some of your questions. First of all, how is God's Love?

What does the Bible say about Love?

1 Corinthians 13:4-10

"4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

So the first question is:
How is my Love?

• Is my Love patient?
• Is my Love kind?
• Does my Love brag?
• Is my Love arrogant?
• Is my Love jealous?
• Is my Love perfect?

It is important to personalize those things. What is your score in a total of six?

Wait. There is more...

The second question is:
What is the focus of my Love?

We all focus our Love on something or someone. Actually, in reality you always focus your Love on someone. Love need a subject and an object (although this is not the exact perspective, it simplifies the discussion and it is still the same thing... more explanation about that later).

Well, you have three options:
Do I focus on...

1. Myself
2. Others
3. God

1. If you focus on yourself, you are probably a selfish person. You will probably not care aboout others. You are probably greedy and self-centered. You can also be proud or feel as a victim. You can aslo focus mostly on material things (in the worst levels of this kind of "love")... Also, it is easy to get worried if you focus on yourself.

2. If you focus on others, than you will probably finish by judging others, although you care about them. Judgement is comparing yourself to someone else. When you judge someone, you are basically saying that you are better than the other person. Thtis is also a kind of pride. Compassion and altruism has no roots of focusing on others. If you focus on others you will certainly see their imperfections and it will probably be harder to Love them. You will probably insult them also. Your "love" can even become arrogant. No good...

3. If you focus on God, you will Love yourself, others and you won't get into the trap of getting self-centered or any of those things previously cited. The key thing is that God is Love ITSELF. You are actually Loving Love. So, when this happens, you won't see any imperfection in others and your Love will become unconditional and impartial. Since God doesn't judge anyone, you won't judge anyone either.

Since you Love Love Itself, than you simply Love. So in Truth, when you focus on God you are simply Love, your Love has no object attached to It.

Next question...
How does Jesus Loves us?

That is pretty easy to see. He calls us "little children" several times. That's how he Loves us: like little children. This means that he accepts our imperfections and even enjoy see us growing up (although that's not always the easiest thing to enjoy... ). He Loves us as if we were little children, and he even died for us. Would you die for your children if that were necessary? Than Love EVERYONE as if they were your own children, and you will get it!!

So, please....

Do NOT insult atheists
Do NOT compare yourselves to them
Love them as if they "were" little children

Thanks bros!

 

[Jenyar]

I second that. Stay humble and pray.

Take care not to become so involved in an argument that you don't take time to pray about what you should say. Make an effort to preserve truth and weed out lies. There are many lies but only the truth is the truth, and nobody can claim sole ownership of the truth - especially not Christians; Jesus is the truth we proclaim. Try to find Christ in everyone you talk to. Our mission is not to prove ourselves right, but to be fishers of men. Only those that are prepared by God will listen. We don't know who they are, so we preach to everybody. When you catch fish, you don't know which ones you will net. Some will see the net, and some will see the holes.

 

[Juliette]

Truthseeker posted:

"What is the focus of my Love?"

A cucumber and a box of vaseline? You Christians are funny - you'll scream hatred and obscenities, all in the name of your "God of Love". Why don't you just accept that you are hateful people? That you want to fight and to hurt others?

 

[Tiassa]

Juliette

A cucumber and a box of vaseline? You Christians are funny - you'll scream hatred and obscenities, all in the name of your "God of Love". Why don't you just accept that you are hateful people? That you want to fight and to hurt others?

Deal with it. People aren't always what we expect.

Does an atheist, for instance, who merely hurts people, warrant any better respect than a Christian who hurts people in the name of God?

It's a human problem.

Sciforums is rife with combative tantrums similar to yours. Believe me, please; I've written many of them.

But the fact was long ago established that in our little corner of the e-world, such approaches are doomed to failure.

I suggest a perusal of the topic Theists, which contains an ongoing drama to which I presently owe a couple of responses. Raithere and I have spent many hours discussing the problem, and the latest fruits of that discussion are contained somewhere around page 3. Wesmorris, as well, is trying quite hard to honor more civilized communication.

As such, Raithere, at least, is prepared to attempt to reel in some of our more useless and combative atheists, and while I'm happy to address our theists in the same way, it is demonstrable that I am ineffective in this; many of our theistic posters erroneously consider me atheist. (I can't figure out why this is.)

So I'm happy to see TruthSeeker addressing his fellow Christians. I've long said that Christians need to clean up their own damn house before harping on others; how can I possibly object to an attempt to do exactly what I've asked of people?

But nobody is going to offer their honesty to these issues if they can only expect an ambush. Christians deserve the opportunity to work out their own problems, and if they're willing to, I'm not inclined to object.

Please do me the honor of considering whether or not you expect to affect anyone in a positive manner by your approach.

thanx much,
Tiassa

 

[Xevious]

I'll be the first to admit that Christians do not police themselves as they should, but it seems to me that other groups, from Feminists, to Anti-War protesters, to Muslems, and just about ANY other group which shares any kind of threat of common ideology has its extremes on both ends.

First those who don't entirely understand what it is they profess. Then, there are those who profess to believe something, but do not live that way. Next, there are those believe in something, and try to live that way but make their mistakes. Then, there are those who believe in something, and are very hard-lined on this belief. And of course, there are those who are so zealous for their beliefs that they will go to any extreme to conscrypt others to their cause.

When 9/11 went down, there were anti-Muslem extremists about. In my own town Muslem restraunts were hit frequently for several weeks. When abortion clinic bombings happen, there are some feminists who will slander all Christians for the acts of a few total extreminsts. The KKK loves to hang black people on bridges, but since a majority of the KKK are Southern hicks, people equate rednecks with racism. I could go on forever, but I hope I've given the gist.

The Bible talks about zealousness. When Elijahu (Elija) wiped out the pagan priests and flead into the mountains, he wept to God of how he had murdured because he was so zealous. Yeshua (Jesus) himself said that Christianity had to be a willing choice. This means to me of course, that you cannot force the conscryption of Christianity upon others on a personal basis.

 

[heflores]

Re: Juliette

Originally posted by tiassa
Deal with it. People aren't always what we expect.


As such, Raithere, at least, is prepared to attempt to reel in some of our more useless and combative atheists, and while I'm happy to address our theists in the same way, it is demonstrable that I am ineffective in this; many of our theistic posters erroneously consider me atheist. (I can't figure out why this is.)

Because it's circular, and you brilliantly said it before, Atheisitic is a term that is at the mercy of it's definition, it's a dynamic belief meaning what might be considered as Atheistic yesterday is considered Theistic today and so on and so forth.....
A healthy theist should have Athesitic views to replenish his theist foundation, there's no need to abondon the foundation to built on it, and it's not a contradiction like would be view by many Stong Theists. ..So you should actually consider it an honor to be viewed as an Atheisic......because somewhat you are... The importance is how you see yourself and noone will know that except you know who.....can't say the name here.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

I love everyone, I hate no one... If I have Im sorry.

 

[Xev]

Awww! I love you too, Coffee.

*Cough*
The rest of you suck.

Tiassa:

I think Juliette is saying that hurting people is a human thing, and that Christians have this problem only because they deny their bestial nature. That is, Christians go on their "loove everyone" trip, denying the fact that they do hate. When they hate, they use their God as their excuse, but their God is not the problem.

Loving everyone is unnatural and diminishes the value of your love for the deserving. I love very few, and I love those very few very intensely. I know no-one deserving hatred, but I am sure I'd hate in the same way.

To claim that humans will "love everyone" is against human nature, I think this is what Juliette is saying.

 

[Tiassa]

Retainer?

Someone else has you on retainer now?

Actually, I'd prefer let Juliette speak for herself.

Loving everyone is unnatural and diminishes the value of your love for the deserving.

Sounds a little like Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan. There's nothing wrong with that, but I reject it coming from La Vey, as well.

Just because you are presently incapable of something means you shouldn't try?

Nonetheless, when a Christian is addressing such problems as the nefarious conduct of other Christians, what is wrong with letting that process happen without spiteful interruption? Are that many atheists dependent on Christianity? Would it somehow break people's hearts if Christians got their collective head out of their collective ass and put their words to task? Would it be that tragic if Christians finally woke up?

Apparently.

Although you do have a point about the value of the deserving. I've found the same problem with respecting people. But in the end, I don't know of an adequate temporal judge of who deserves what. I don't think anyone does, else we wouldn't invent them in religions.

Perhaps you should rely on something more objective than your own arrogance?

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Xev]

Tiassa:

Funny, I think Juliette mentioned being a Satanist.

But anyhoow:

Nonetheless, when a Christian is addressing such problems as the nefarious conduct of other Christians, what is wrong with letting that process happen without spiteful interruption? Are that many atheists dependent on Christianity? Would it somehow break people's hearts if Christians got their collective head out of their collective ass and put their words to task? Would it be that tragic if Christians finally woke up?

Apparently.

Spiteful mood today, Tiassa? I merely defended Juliette's comment re: love because it interested me. I don't really care about the rest.

Although you do have a point about the value of the deserving. I've found the same problem with respecting people. But in the end, I don't know of an adequate temporal judge of who deserves what. I don't think anyone does, else we wouldn't invent them in religions.

*Raises an eyebrow*

I hardly consider myself "deserving". Adequete judge? Hardly. But I am the only judge, and thus - well, I'm rather forced into the role.

Perhaps you should rely on something more objective than your own arrogance?

Since when were emotions objective?

Perhaps I have confused you with "deserving". My apologies.

 

[Tiassa]

Actually ....

Spiteful mood today, Tiassa?

I'm actually doing better today than I have in a long while.

I hardly consider myself "deserving". Adequete judge? Hardly. But I am the only judge, and thus - well, I'm rather forced into the role.

Who cares how you consider yourself? That changes daily.

As to the judge--keep playing the victim. It suits you.

Since when were emotions objective?

Derivatively speaking, that's my point.

Perhaps I have confused you with "deserving". My apologies.

Don't apologize. Such a lack of sincerity is an ugly color, even on you.

Love and respect should be awarded to people until they actively forfeit it. The presumption of unfitness for either love or respect is myopic at best.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Xev]

Tiassa:

I'm actually doing better today than I have in a long while.

Wow. I must say, my heart goes out to you.

Actually, I'm more laughing at your silliness. But it's a nice sentiment.

As to the judge--keep playing the victim. It suits you.

Playing the victim? Where do you get this?
I realize you're in a spiteful, hateful little snarl of a mood, but I don't see how my comment leads to that.

There is no judge. Thus, I am as qualified a judge as anyone else.

I state badly. But I believe every human is qualified to judge such things. How am I a victim for playing this role?

Love and respect should be awarded to people until they actively forfeit it. The presumption of unfitness for either love or respect is myopic at best.

Nice assumption.

I'm bored with you now. Sheesh, can't you try to have a discussion without sniping for no reason?

 

[Tiassa]

I realize you're in a spiteful, hateful little snarl of a mood, but I don't see how my comment leads to that.

Then I shall educate you on that point:

But I am the only judge, and thus - well, I'm rather forced into the role.

Poor, poor, victimized you.

Welcome to the human species. (And on that note, my heart does legitimately bleed for you.)

Sheesh, can't you try to have a discussion without sniping for no reason?

Sniping? Can you have a discussion without being so presumptive and arrogant?

I'm happy to believe this is the real you, but I try not to on the grounds that I don't like to make such indictments of human nature without being a little more sure. So let me know, and it will make things a little easier.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[ThatJerk]

Xev AND Tiassa.

I like you both and agree with a lot of what you both say; but I find that you both have a bad habit of harping at each other for pretty well no reason at all. You may notice that this thread has become a two-person battlefield.

My request is this: cease and desist! You're scaring away all the other debaters!

Just a thought.

 

[Tiassa]

Aptly named

My request is this: cease and desist! You're scaring away all the other debaters!

Of course we are. That's about all she's good for.

Look--what do you want me to do? Let whining freaks continue to harangue people for trying to work out widely-acknowledge problems?

I suppose I can do that, but Sciforums just isn't very fun when people perpetuate problematic behavior.

("Um, excuse me, sir? Could you please stop defending innocent people? It scares away the guilty.")

,
Tiassa

 

[TruthSeeker]

Xev,

Loving everyone is unnatural and diminishes the value of your love for the deserving.

Who do you love more: your mom or your kids? Does loving your mom really diminishes the value of your love for your kids?

Btw.. this thread is a Christian thread: mostly for Christians... but... nevermind...

 

[New Life]

I totally agree, those who profess to the faith need to start being less hypocritical (and I will gladly confess to all here that I am being hypocritical myself)

This past week the churches in my town got together to promot unity of the churches by having a week of events that was called the ONE project.......i think its a good step in the right direction, but more needs to be done!

 

[TruthSeeker]

Interesting idea... maybe I should talk with my pastor about that...

 

[ThatJerk]

TruthSeeker:

Your post upsets my stomach in several ways.

1.

So if you Love, you know God.

I have a lot of love for several of my friends (and lots more for a girlfriend when I find one! ), and yet I don't know your God (or even acknowledge it's existence). Explain, please?

2.

Are you really fullfilling the Law?

So love is one of God's Laws, eh? If this wasn't the case would love just not be something that's important to you or anybody else?

I have this same problem with many other so-called 'Christian' laws; if church law didn't include the stipulation "Thou Shalt Not Kill" would it be open-season on humans? I find that for the most part these either codify common secular ideals, or (like in the case of lust) are just jerky.

3.

Does my Love brag?

By simply hanging it out of your pants you're saying (in effect) "I love more/betterer than all of you." I sincerely doubt that your god intended to start a pissing contest about who could love the most. This also ties in with your 'love' being arrogant; you flaunt it like a child would flaunt his new super-soaker to all the other kids on the block while expecting a heavenly reward in the next life for being such a good, loving Christian. Ah, the sweet smell of irony.

4.

Is my Love perfect?

My well-thought, educated and rational response to this question:

Wtf?!?

To clarify, the fact that you feel the need to quantify your 'love' and to grade it on a scale of 1 through 10 makes me seriously question your motivation in this matter. This kind of narcississtic (sp?) and self-righteous love both annoys and saddens me to no end.

5.

3. If you focus on God, you will Love yourself, others and you won't get into the trap of getting self-centered or any of those things previously cited. The key thing is that God is Love ITSELF. You are actually Loving Love. So, when this happens, you won't see any imperfection in others and your Love will become unconditional and impartial. Since God doesn't judge anyone, you won't judge anyone either.

Explain how loving God causes me to love myself, others and cute little animals all in one handy-dandy package, complete with No-Judgement action? I smell unsupported supposition with a healthy dash of self-righteous preaching.

In my humble, heathen and thoroughly irreverent observations of the world, I've found that people who claim to focus on God are really just grasping for the heaven carrot on the end of the bible stick, ie are about as self-centered as you can get. They'll look at you and do that little self-satisfied smirk that says "While I'm basking in God's presence for all eternity YOU'LL be getting your lower-intestine fed to you in Hell! Sucker..." Which brings me to my next point...

6.

Love them as if they "were" little children

That danged superior, holier-than-thou attitude that really rubs me the wrong way. "little children" is it? Like we're misguided sheep in need of some Truth and Light? In the eloquent words of my good friend Al, fuck that shit.

To sum up, your so-called love is really just a smoke-screen for post-life position-jockying. Funny that I, a shameless pagan, probably have more genuine love for people than a lot of Christians.

 

[TruthSeeker]

ThatJerk,

I have a lot of love for several of my friends (and lots more for a girlfriend when I find one! ), and yet I don't know your God (or even acknowledge it's existence). Explain, please?

The kind of Love I speak here is compassionate and altruistic. It is more general than self-focused (close relationships, for example). It is Love for other human-beings that you don't even know. It is to Love just by the sake of Loving.

So love is one of God's Laws, eh? If this wasn't the case would love just not be something that's important to you or anybody else?

Love is THE ONLY Law of God.
In any case Love is important to everyone.

By simply hanging it out of your pants you're saying (in effect) "I love more/betterer than all of you." I sincerely doubt that your god intended to start a pissing contest about who could love the most. This also ties in with your 'love' being arrogant; you flaunt it like a child would flaunt his new super-soaker to all the other kids on the block while expecting a heavenly reward in the next life for being such a good, loving Christian. Ah, the sweet smell of irony.

I was personalizing It:

It is important to personalize those things. What is your score in a total of six?

That's why I stated the question as "I".

To clarify, the fact that you feel the need to quantify your 'love' and to grade it on a scale of 1 through 10 makes me seriously question your motivation in this matter. This kind of narcississtic (sp?) and self-righteous love both annoys and saddens me to no end.

Again, not personilized. And I'm talking about God's kind of Love, which is perfect.

Explain how loving God causes me to love myself, others and cute little animals all in one handy-dandy package, complete with No-Judgement action? I smell unsupported supposition with a healthy dash of self-righteous preaching.

When you focus outward you start judging what you Love. For example, if you focus on someone, you will start to see some imperfections in this person and will start to apply conditions to your love. But if you focus on God (which IS Love HIMSELF), than you won't focus it outwardly but rather on Itself. You will just Love by the simple act of Loving.

In my humble, heathen and thoroughly irreverent observations of the world, I've found that people who claim to focus on God are really just grasping for the heaven carrot on the end of the bible stick, ie are about as self-centered as you can get. They'll look at you and do that little self-satisfied smirk that says "While I'm basking in God's presence for all eternity YOU'LL be getting your lower-intestine fed to you in Hell! Sucker..." Which brings me to my next point...

Humble... With your words, it wouldn't be foolish to assume that what you call me is the mere reflection of who you really are. But I won't asssume things as you and others do. You don't know me. You don't know my nature. So how can you really judge me like that?

That danged superior, holier-than-thou attitude that really rubs me the wrong way. "little children" is it? Like we're misguided sheep in need of some Truth and Light? In the eloquent words of my good friend Al, fuck that shit.

Love them as if they "were[SIZE]"[/SIZE] little children

Do you want the quotation marks bigger? I'm NOT judging people as "little children", I'm just stating the kind of Love that we have for little cute babies...
... AAAAWWWWWWW