im curious whats up with lightsoverphoenix.com

[Greco]

People that constantly look up in the sky stumble alot.

 

[2inquisitive]

And people who only look at where they place their feet run into things and fail to
observe what is happening around them.

 

[Greco]

Ergo we combine the two to

"Know where your feet are and make sure you're on solid ground before looking up in the sky"

meaning make sure your theses is solidly based on evidence before revealing it.

 

[crazymikey]

do you have solid evidence they were "flares" greco?

 

[SkinWalker]

do you have solid evidence they were "flares" greco?

Now there's a typical pseudoscience retort: "you can't prove my theory wrong, and your theory, however more probable, is not correct becuase my belief is stronger than yours."

Pseudoscience.

 

[crazymikey]

LoL, Skinwalker, do you have any other words in your vocabulary, other than pseudoscience, cultist and spurious? That's all we hear
Not only do you use the same words all the time, you say the same things all the time. You have no idea how boring that is to read!

 

[Mystech]

I saw the footage and these "lights" reminded me of the artillery flares that we used when I was in the Army... they behaved almost exactly like them, enough that if I had seen the footage without the UFO hype, that's what I would have assumed them to be....

I live in Phoenix, and have since '96. I was here during the whole lights over phoenix thing, it was a pretty big deal in the news, the Governor spoke out about it and everything. In the end, it was in fact found to be the very flares you mentioned.

Luke Airforce base here in Arizona (not far out of Phoenix) is the largest F-16 training center in the nation, and apparently it was part of some exercise.

 

[bubba]

You can all bicker back and forth all you want and the people that want to believe the media and the governor go right ahead too. But for the 100s or 1000s of people in Arizona that saw the enormous v-shaped object pass directly over the top of them, there is absolutely no doubt in our minds that they were not flares. Flares do not fly across the sky in formation, they drop down and blow randomly with the wind. What I saw with my own eyes was a HUGE v-shaped object that flew right over the top of me very low, slow and silent with 5 lights along the front edge. As I mentioned earlier though, I couldn't tell for sure if there was actually a solid object connecting the 5 lights because it seemed that if there was an object there, it was transparent, or exactly the same color as the night sky and I can't recall for sure if I could see the stars through it or not. I was dumbfounded at the time and my memory is clouded now by all the other reports I've read. Man, what I'd give to have had a video camera with me at the time. There are several good sights out there about the phoenix lights that detail the fact that there were numerous reportings that night by very credible witnesses to many different events. The two main events were 1) The huge v-shaped object that passed over me (in north Phoenix - 32nd St. & Cactus) and 2) The lights out on the horizon which were dismissed as flares, and I believe were flares. The first event occurred around 8:45PM and the second was around 10PM and not in the same part of town. I did not see the flares or anything else later that night. I only saw the first event. The object was also seen in Nevada, much of Northern AZ and all the way down the I-10 to Tuscon and further towards Mexico. I have no idea if it was military or ET, but sure hope to find out someday. My gut feeling was that it was ET - I felt I was in the presence of something non-human. But, my skeptical, scientific, common-sense side tells me that what I saw must have been a huge stealth-blimp that is some sort of confidential military craft. I haven't been able to find anyone with any solid evidence either way so I'm still very open minded to both options - or even other options. I have a hard time believing that the military could keep it confidential for so long though. If they could keep this thing under wraps, then I'd think the SR71, B2, etc. would still be under wraps too. Anyway, let me state it one more time - there may very well have been some military flares the night of 3/13/97, but what I, and many, many other Arizonans saw was NOT a bunch of flares. No way, no how.

 

[SkinWalker]

LoL, Skinwalker, do you have any other words in your vocabulary, other than pseudoscience, cultist and spurious? That's all we hear

With the dribble you provide, I'm offered no alternatives.

Not only do you use the same words all the time, you say the same things all the time.

Pots, kettles, the color black.

You have no idea how boring that is to read!

Put me on your "ignore list."

 

[crazymikey]

Bubba, what you are facing here is mass ignorance and foolishness. You, see it's not just you who saw that, but even airforce pilots, and highly educated people, amongst the thousands others you mention. These foolish pseudoskeptics are not going to even glance at that, they'll just swallow and regurgutitate the official explanation, without questioning it. However, believe you me, the air they breathe is increasingly getting thinner, there is not just this Buba - There is Roswell, There is the Missouri Crash, there is the Brooklyn bridge UFO abduction; there is the Rendelsham incident, and tons of such other incidents, everything is mounting up, and it's crushing them, and what you see coming out of them, other than the shit, is just plain wind.
I've proven beyond a reason of doubt now, that they don't have a leg to stand on; they have gone from pretending to be sensible - to ignorance - to ridicule - to open-insults. It is clear to anyone how pathetic they have become.

 

[bubba]

Thanks for the support crazymikey . I won't pass judgement on skinwalker - I think he's just a little fast to jump to conclusions, but I don't blame him for thinking that what he saw were flares. It seems most of video caught that night, and shown in the media WAS of the something that looked a lot like flares - and very well could have been. But, that was not what I saw earlier that night. I do remember seeing a short clip of video of the v-shaped object, but it was very poor quality so I think that's why it didn't get much airtime. I'm not sure if it's out there on the Internet anywhere but I think it might have even been shown in that Discovery Channel (TLC?) special they did on the Phoenix lights. Anyway, no video can compare to what I saw with my own two eyes. I do wish I would have had one of those high-intensity spot lights they use at grand-openings and a video camera though. I'll have to buy a big pick-up and start halling one around with me just in case . Also, you mentioned that highly-educated people saw the object so I thought that I might add I could be counted as one of them. I am a Summa Cum Laude (4.0 GPA) ASU graduate with a B.S. degree in Computer Information Systems.

 

[crazymikey]

I won't pass judgement on skinwalker - I think he's just a little fast to jump to conclusions, but I don't blame him for thinking that what he saw were flares.

Oh no, certainly not Bubba. Skinwalker is an unequivocally an out and out anti-ufo fanatic. He calls all UFO proponents fanatics and cultists, and considers it a field that is bullshit and a waste of time. He calls all people who claim to have seen UFO's or have been abducted by the - delusional or mentally ill(hence why he dismissed your account) he outrightly denies any incident he cannot explain, and for cases he thinks he can explain, he gives the most awful explanations(e.g. Metallic flying saucer UFO's in ancient artwork, from as old as 40,000 years; explained as symbols for flesh and blood angels, or just decoration )

Honestly, do not hestitate to show these kind of people their true place. Skinwalker is to skepticism, what those UFO fallen angel and demon cults are to ufology.

 

[bubba]

You may be right, I haven't been here so long so haven't read much from him. If he just hangs around here trying to dismiss other people's experiences though maybe it's because he just doesn't have much of a life of his own and or he's just jealous of other people's "alien probing experiences" Jokes aside though, he is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. But, if he is ignorant, narrow-minded and judgemental of others then I guess it's just best to ignore him and not give him the attention he seems to crave.

 

[SkinWalker]

Skinwalker is an unequivocally an out and out 1)anti-ufo fanatic. 2)He calls all UFO proponents fanatics and cultists, and 3)considers it a field that is bullshit and a waste of time. 4)He calls all people who claim to have seen UFO's or have been abducted by the - delusional or mentally ill 5)(hence why he dismissed your account) he 6)outrightly denies any incident he cannot explain, and 7)for cases he thinks he can explain, he gives the most awful explanations(e.g. Metallic flying saucer UFO's in ancient artwork, 8)from as old as 40,000 years; explained as symbols for flesh and blood angels, or just decoration )

As usual, your accuracy is faulty. Let me correct one or two points here (but it certainly demonstrates how you fail understand the skeptical refutations on this board - you only see what you want to in print!).

1) I'm an anti-pseudoscience fanatic. I admit, I fanatically oppose pseudoscience as I see it as one of the reasons why our nation is failing to produce the volume of scientists, engineers and critical thinkers it could be.

2) My position on the UFO/ETI movement is that it resembles a post-axial religion in many ways. If it is a religion, its an unconscious one, though many individual cults do exist within it in which it's members voluntarily subscribe to religious experience. But the UFO/ETI movement as a whole, has a heirarchy, sacred places, world rejection, belief in a form of salvation, unbounded explanations of the supernatural, and fanatical rejection of infidels and heretics (skeptics).

3) I consider the methodology that crazymikey has used to be bullshit and a waste of time since it presents untestable claims and has no potential for falsifiability. There are some very good researchers into ETI out there as well as UFOs. The Hessledeen project among them.

4) I've referred to only a couple people as dellusional or metally deficient, as this is the more probable answer. The rest are likely to be merely gullible or lack the appropriate critical thinking or want to believe. Belief systems exist in humanity and are rarely supported by rational thought.

5) I dismissed Bubba's account because better, more probable explanations are forthcoming.

6) No, for those "incidents" I can't explain, I do not deny them, I simply refuse to make them adhere to my belief system and leave them as unexplained but with several probable and possible causes, one of which is UFO/ETI. The latter simply doesn't happen to be as probable or possible as many of the others.

7) Your inability to describe me to Bubba would indicate that your reasoning ability is perhaps biased, damaged, or not fully developed. Therefore this remark explains itself. My explanations of your "UFO/ETI in ancient artwork" was reasonable and original in thought, while based on solid citation and context. None of which your "hypothesis" could claim.

8) For one to believe that one can interpret the artistic thought of a prehistoric human culture of 40 kya without the context of other artistic works is very ignorant indeed.

So, as you can see Bubba, crazymikey simply vehemently opposes those that disagree with his "hypotheses," regardless of their refutations. His only reponse is that if you disagree with him, you are obviously wrong. Never once did I see crazymikey revise a point in light of information received from someone else. Nor did he defend his points beyond simply stating that the refutation was from a pseudo-skeptic using pseudo-logic. Yet he claims to follow scientific methodology.

Bubba, you very well may have seen something. That's something that neither I nor crazymikey will ever prove or disprove. Before retiring from the military, I can tell you I saw a lot of strange stuff that the military was doing. Hell, I nearly pissed on myself once when I drove a Hummer around a hill and saw a remotely piloted drone hovering over the road in broad daylight! Damndest thing I ever saw. Had it been night time, there's no telling what I would have thought.

I'm just saying that crazymikey's evidence is severely lacking.

 

[crazymikey]

Skinwalker, shall I tell you, why you are so vehemently against ETI and UFO's? Why you lurk around in there threads and dismiss every pro-ETI evidence or anything that suggests ETI? I've already worked you out. Then again, don't be surprised, you repeat the same things every post, so it's quite easy to see through such transparency

The truth is so clear: You're a bigot. You have this(weak) theory, that you been working on and writing up that the ETI/UFO movement:

UFO/ETI movement is that it resembles a post-axial religion in many ways. If it is a religion, its an unconscious one, though many individual cults do exist within it in which it's members voluntarily subscribe to religious experience. But the UFO/ETI movement as a whole, has a heirarchy, sacred places, world rejection, belief in a form of salvation, unbounded explanations of the supernatural, and fanatical rejection of infidels and heretics (skeptics).

You're even writing a "paper" on it, as you proclaimed not too long ago. You have repeated this same "theory" over and over to the point of it becoming a chore to hear. It is so obviouis now. You feel undermined lol
Yes, that is it. You've been working on this theory of yours for so long, writing it up, possibly want publication. That all this evidence for ETI, that is piling up right before your eyes, makes you feel small and undermined It's damn funny actually, just so that you can enforce your opinion, you are flatly and outrightly denying every piece of evidence - so that you can have your say! Oh man, I feel I'm going to burst out laughing! That is soo pathetic lol

Dude, if it's broke --- fix it - or you'll fall face flat and break your nose.

Damn, I can't stop laughing now. I need to get it out of my system lol

 

[SkinWalker]

Ha! I'm the bigot?

bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

I'm actually very tolerant of different opinions. In fact, I've even been known to revise my own opinions based on evidence provided by others. Show me where you've revised anything in your "550 +" pages of "evidence." You mean to tell me that you are completely right and that the skeptical audience had nothing to offer? Not one point that you could use to revise your "hypotheses?"

Science doesn't work that way mikey.

Pseudoscience does.

 

[crazymikey]

I'm actually very tolerant of different opinions. In fact, I've even been known to revise my own opinions based on evidence provided by others.

I wanted to stop laughing, but no, you wouldn't let me

Posts by Skinwalker:

"UFO/ETO movement is a cultist and fanatical movement"
"All you've actually done is provide a bunch of pseudoscience shit in the form of a bunch of "believers" re-affirming their faiths"
"Investigation into UFO/ETI is a waste of time since the supernatural and metaphysical cannot be falsified. "

This one is particularly funny: Skinwalker is shown up by a skeptical web site, showing him as a pseudoskeptic: To which he says -

"Like I said, the link you provided was broken, but the last time I looked at skepticalinvestigations.org (if it's the same site), it appeared to be a "pseudo-skeptic" site that had an agenda of passing itself off as a skeptic site, but one that justified pseudoscientific rationale. "

"Very tolerant of different opinions"

ROFL

"n fact, I've even been known to revise my own opinions based on evidence provided by others. "

LMAO

As I said above. Skinwalker is a bigot; an out and out anti-UFO fanatic, who is outrightly rejecting every evidence in favour of ETI - simply so that he can have his say.

"Oh, I'm well versed in this field. Anthropology. I'm making it a life's work to study why people believe and their archaeological records. You should see my field notes on this site "

Here is a real description of Skinwalker, FROM an actual PRO-skeptic web site:

by Marcello Truzzi
Founding co-chairman of CSICOP

I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic. One should be skeptical of both the believers and the scoffers. The negative claims of pseudo-skeptics who offer facile explanations must themselves be subject to criticism. If a competent witness reports having seen something tens of degrees of arc in size (as happens) and the scoffer -- who of course was not there -- offers Venus or a high altitude weather balloon as an explanation, the requirement of extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim falls on the proffered negative claim as well. That kind of approach is also pseudo-science. Moreover just being a scientist confers neither necessary expertise nor sufficient knowledge. (I wish it did, sigh.) Any scientist who has not read a few serious books and articles presenting actual UFO evidence should out of intellectual honesty refrain from making scientific pronouncements. To look at the evidence and go away unconvinced is one thing. To not look at the evidence and be convinced against it nonetheless is another. That is not science. Do your homework!

Critics who assert negative claims, but who mistakenly call themselves "skeptics," often act as though they have no burden of proof placed on them at all, though such a stance would be appropriate only for the agnostic or true skeptic. A result of this is that many critics seem to feel it is only necessary to present a case for their counter-claims based upon plausibility rather than empirical evidence. Thus, if a subject in a psi experiment can be shown to have had an opportunity to cheat, many critics seem to assume not merely that he probably did cheat, but that he must have, regardless of what may be the complete absence of evidence that he did so cheat and sometimes even ignoring evidence of the subject's past reputation for honesty."

Skinwalker is a pseudoskeptic, and he's is being a pseudoskeptic, because his entire life's work of proving UFO/ETI movements to be a "post-axial" cultist movement goes down the gutter. What we have here, is a very stubborn, bigoted, shameless and proud man, who thinks he's the shit, but he's actually just shit.

 

[zonabi]

definetely something strange in phx
also, u may see the flares as an attempt to cover-up, but u see the flares event took place later in the night, way after many people around phoenix had seen the slowly creeping semi-transparant v-shaped craft over head.

ive read over peoples reports, and they all agree on a few points:
- huge craft, some claim a mile long others not so exageratted.
- low altitude, some say 1000 feet while others closer to ground,
- light fixtures on the bottom side of the craft, moving in unison
- slow speed, all the lights seemed to creep along between 10-50 mphs
- direction, all claims say North to South, or NE to SW, same basic direction

now, i can conclude a few things. given its slow speed, it shows that there was some intention on making sure people saw it.

given the description, it is one huge craft.
do you think that humans, in attempts to create antigravity crafts etc, would try by building a HUGE mile-wide mothership ? i dont think so.
we start small, of course. thats obvious common sense.
(now opposing this thought is the notion of human intelligence secretly working on antigrav for almost half a decade- now in that light it seems possible they may have created a huge ship ... but my insight tells me this is not the case)

i think it was ETI attempt to show themselves. they have began a campaign to try to bring awareness (supposedly). if we want them to show, they will. if we don't, they won't. they know, do you ? ask yourself.

mikey what makes you think it wasnt eti ?

 

[zonabi]

and skinwalker u should make a thread called "i hate crazymikey"
and crazymikey should make a thread called "i hate skinwalker"

but for god's sake, and for aliens' sake, and for pete's sake- dont fight in the threads.

i know thats what walker wants, but mikey why cant you place him on ignore. i know no one likes to be insulted- but forget him, and remember what what youre here to do.
u say u realize why walker does this, yet you continue to argue him. forget him, please ! its the arguments that are lowering your credibility and etc... dont u see mikey? ignore ! poof ! gone !

 

[crazymikey]

mikey what makes you think it wasnt eti ?

I guess, you could call it insight too. I think what is most telling, is the triangular design, which seems like a terrestrial design choice, aerodynamically proficient, for gliding in the air. I guess it has two modes of propulsion. Although it is possible it was ETI. After all, it does not check out, that classified craft would be so openly demonstrated.

With regards to Skinwalker; I understand by arguing him, I am not making the best choice. However, I think it is imperative, that I show him, for he really is. Otherwise if I leave the nonsense he spouts, without showing it to be nonsense, it will muddle the matter for others. Although, now, it seems, we are all aware of his fanaticism and pseudoskepticism, so perhaps I shall ignore him.