If theism stands and falls with theists ...

Of course they do. What makes you think they don't?

Having your own definitions again?

Is Zeus immortal?
I couldn't find any source stating so, but given that he was born, he is not the kind of being that has always existed, and as such, could also come to stop existing.

Thor, too, was born, so the same holds for him. Some stories also go that Thor died.
 
Is Zeus immortal?
I couldn't find any source stating so, but given that he was born, he is not the kind of being that has always existed, and as such, could also come to stop existing.

Thor, too, was born, so the same holds for him. Some stories also go that Thor died.

Not all deities are immortal. Nor is having been born disqualify you from immortality (Jesus comes to mind). But yes, Zeus was immortal.

I'm sure you'll then employ your favorite non-sequitor, "but that's not THE God" to which I can only reply that you're asserting a particular brand of theism as superior to others, for which you have no basis to do.
 
Not all deities are immortal.

Then per the Wiki definition, they are not deities.

If we're talking about a belief in, as Wikipedia puts it, a "preternatural or supernatural immortal being" (aka a deity), then we're talking about theism.


Nor is having been born disqualify you from immortality (Jesus comes to mind). But yes, Zeus was immortal.

But Jesus is also said to have always existed anyway.
AFAIK, the same isn't said about Zeus or Thor.


I'm sure you'll then employ your favorite non-sequitor, "but that's not THE God" to which I can only reply that you're asserting a particular brand of theism as superior to others, for which you have no basis to do.

And this solely because you said so!
 
Then per the Wiki definition, they are not deities.
Originally Posted by Rav
If we're talking about a belief in, as Wikipedia puts it, a "preternatural or supernatural immortal being" (aka a deity), then we're talking about theism.

If "preternatural or supernatural immortal being" were a sufficiently comprehensive explanation of what does and doesn't constitute a deity, that's all Wikipedia would say on the issue. But it says a lot more. That's why I bothered to link to the full article. If you were interested in getting to the bottom of this, you would be making your comments in view of that, and not playing games by choosing to only consider a single quote apart from the greater scope of discussion relating to the topic.

Having said that however, it doesn't even matter if the line between what is and isn't a deity becomes imperceptible as we move toward things like Angels, or even Catholic saints. We don't abandon the usefulness of categories just because they sometimes overlap with others at their outer edges.

In a nutshell, pointing out the fact that there are indeed some inconsistencies at these outer edges does absolutely nothing to justify the blatant errors you have been making when it comes to classifying things that can be clearly placed in one category or another. Remember, you started all this by trying to classify deists as atheists, which is nothing like trying to decide if some mortal religious figure who may have performed a few miracles is or isn't a deity.
 
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Then per the Wiki definition, they are not deities.

Well, setting aside for a moment that Wikipedia is a community-sourced project, and far from authoritative, it also says that a deity is often considered immortal, so it hardly implies that a non-immortal deity would not "qualify."

Rav did a good enough job chastising you for your intellectual dishonesty on this matter, so I'll leave that part be.

But Jesus is also said to have always existed anyway.

AFAIK, the same isn't said about Zeus or Thor.

Ah, right, the trinity. Well, even so, my point stands. All immortal means is undying. It says nothing of incarnation.

And this solely because you said so!

Not at all, wynn. Your explanation for asserting the Christian God above others was a logical fallacy, so unless you have a better answer today, then you factually have no basis for your claim.
 
Well, setting aside for a moment that Wikipedia is a community-sourced project, and far from authoritative, it also says that a deity is often considered immortal, so it hardly implies that a non-immortal deity would not "qualify."

When in doubt, ask JDawg. Got that.


Ah, right, the trinity. Well, even so, my point stands. All immortal means is undying. It says nothing of incarnation.

All that is subject to birth is subject to death.
Agree or not?


Not at all, wynn. Your explanation for asserting the Christian God above others was a logical fallacy, so unless you have a better answer today, then you factually have no basis for your claim.

I have never asserted such, you projection-prone poster.
 
If "preternatural or supernatural immortal being" were a sufficiently comprehensive explanation of what does and doesn't constitute a deity, that's all Wikipedia would say on the issue. But it says a lot more. That's why I bothered to link to the full article. If you were interested in getting to the bottom of this, you would be making your comments in view of that, and not playing games by choosing to only consider a single quote apart from the greater scope of discussion relating to the topic.

Having said that however, it doesn't even matter if the line between what is and isn't a deity becomes imperceptible as we move toward things like Angels, or even Catholic saints. We don't abandon the usefulness of categories just because they sometimes overlap with others at their outer edges.

In a nutshell, pointing out the fact that there are indeed some inconsistencies at these outer edges does absolutely nothing to justify the blatant errors you have been making when it comes to classifying things that can be clearly placed in one category or another. Remember, you started all this by trying to classify deists as atheists, which is nothing like trying to decide if some mortal religious figure who may have performed a few miracles is or isn't a deity.

We're discussing who or what qualifies for being the addressee of theism.
And we have established that this is not so clear.

This was the point I sought to make and succeeded.
 
wynn,,

Then per the Wiki definition, they are not deities.


Is that so?


''A deity[1] is a recognized preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers.''


You're right.



But Jesus is also said to have always existed anyway.
AFAIK, the same isn't said about Zeus or Thor.


Good poiint.

I think i'm begining to see your strategy here.


jan.
 
JDawg,


Well, setting aside for a moment that Wikipedia is a community-sourced project, and far from authoritative, it also says that a deity is often considered immortal, so it hardly implies that a non-immortal deity would not "qualify."


A deity[1] is a recognized preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers.


Pay special attention to the word ''IS''.


Rav did a good enough job chastising you for your intellectual dishonesty on this matter, so I'll leave that part be.


Chastise? :D


Ah, right, the trinity. Well, even so, my point stands. All immortal means is undying. It says nothing of incarnation.


They're two different words, with different meanings, silly.

Wynn didn't mention ''the trinity''. Why have you?


Not at all, wynn. Your explanation for asserting the Christian God above others was a logical fallacy, so unless you have a better answer today, then you factually have no basis for your claim.


Where did she make this assertion?


jan.
 
We're discussing who or what qualifies for being the addressee of theism.
And we have established that this is not so clear.

This was the point I sought to make and succeeded.

It all goes back to your claim that theism necessarily entails that one "put one's life on the line". In other words, that theism is either devoutly religious, or it's not theism. This clearly ties in with your insistence that deists are not theists, but are actually atheists. Since then you've been trying to add merit to your case by attempting to provide examples of cases of people believing in gods that are not really gods, in order to demonstrate that because the term "theism" needs revision anyway, it's therefore it's OK for you to redefine it.

You haven't succeeded in this endeavour, and you wont.

I've replied to you here.
Do you still want to claim I am not open-minded enough?

I'm not going to reply to that. You wont like what I've got to say, and it wont lead anywhere useful. I'm done with it.
 
wynn:

Precisely, one must restrict theism to a particular conception of God, or it's not theism.

One must agree on some general meaning of the term "God", but that's about it. A particular conception is not required.

We can see this implicitly at work when we dismiss "belief in Jimi Hendrix" or "belief in the FSM" and maintain that they are not forms of theism.

Anybody who really believes that Jimi Hendrix or the FSM is a real supernatural being who exists in the world and who is in some way "powerful" (in a sense that I won't bother to define precisely at this point) would be a theist. They would believe that Jimi Hendrix is a god, or that the FSM is a god.

By the way, the FSM is explicitly described as sharing many of the essential "godlike" features of the Christian God. So why would belief in the FSM not be a form of theism?
 
wynn:





By the way, the FSM is explicitly described as sharing many of the essential "godlike" features of the Christian God. So why would belief in the FSM not be a form of theism?

Because it exists purely as a tool of parody sported by atheists, as a guess.
 
lightgigantic:

It is quite possible, of course, that some people may regard the FSM as a tool of parody. Equally, it is quite possible that some people might regard the Jesus story (for example) as a myth.

And yet, we readily accept that if somebody really believes that Jesus is God, then he is a theist. Similarly, I see no reason to regard somebody who believes the FSM is a real honest-to-goodness God as anything other than a theist.
 
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