"If I am right, I go to heaven, if you are right, you die anyway."

[Michael]

"If I am right, I go to heaven, if you are right, you die anyway."

This should be rewritten as:

"If I am right, I go to heaven, if you are right, I die anyway."

And if the Scientologists are right, We all go for a ride in a Yellow Submarine, Yellow Submarine, Yellow Submarine... or intergalactic Mothership, that`s apparently also Yellow.

 

[Balerion]

Yes. If there is no God, no after-life just an ultimate end to life, then yes, life is meaningless.

But it doesn't follow that an ultimate end to life equates to life having no meaning, nor does it follow that eternal life equates to meaning. I feel like you perhaps don't understand exactly what "meaning" entails.

What is meaning to you? What about eternal life and god provides meaning?

And how can you claim to have high self-esteem when you very self-worth is defined by something that is not you? For example, saying "I think very highly of myself because my couch is awesome" is nonsensical. That is not self-esteem, but a love of your awesome couch.

At any rate, your position is falsifiable, as I am an atheist, and my life has plenty of meaning.

 

[Trooper]

So atheists feel isolated "celebrating life" while the religious are enjoying the company and mutual support of friends and family supposedly "celebrating death". That's preposterous on the face of it, and all you seem to have in support is intellectual justifications that don't seem to alleviate that actual self-reported quality of life.

Can focusing on an afterlife devalue the one life that actually does exists? You do realize that some religions promote suffering, right? :bugeye:

Atheism and the Afterlife

Personally, I am happier as an atheist and I’m not entirely convinced that religious people are any happier. I don’t need other people’s input to validate my position, realty does that. I explore the world with intellectual curiosity and seek to understand it through scientific discipline. Sure, I have been isolated from some of my old Christian friends, but then again, that means they were not true friends. Besides, that’s why I feel it’s important to wear your atheism on your sleeve, to gain tolerance, dispel the stigma, and to reduce such isolation.

Perhaps, the so-called cultural value of religion is deceiving, but either way, I think we can both agree that just because something may make you happy doesn’t make it true or right.

Can you say the motives are any different for the church goer? Nah, they couldn't possibly gain any satisfaction and sense of purpose by doing what they feel is right, could they?

I wasn’t comparing atheist to theist. I was thinking of transformative leaders, who have made a difference. Ones who were void of idiot compassion, which has a lot more to do with our own expectations, self-image and desires than fulfilling a real need. They didn’t do it for rewards or any other superficialities that pervade the religious culture. They did it because they had no choice because they were driven to do what they thought was right.

 

[Balerion]

Who says atheists feel isolation? Where does this nonsense come from?

 

[Trooper]

Who says atheists feel isolation? Where does this nonsense come from?

I guess it depends on your location but atheists in America have been made to feel isolated.

 

[Balerion]

I guess it depends on your location but atheists in America have been made to feel isolated.

In what sense, and according to who?

 

[Trooper]

I've read many stories from lonely atheists but maybe you're right. Perhaps, the isolation of American atheists is just an illusion. :shrug:

 

[wynn]

I guess it depends on your location but atheists in America have been made to feel isolated.

It's lonely at the top.

 

[Balerion]

I've read many stories from lonely atheists but maybe you're right. Perhaps, the isolation of American atheists is just an illusion. :shrug:

You mean isolated from each other? Oh, well, yes, I can imagine that. Atheism is not a binding worldview like various brands of theism are. For example, if you are an Evangelical in the US, you are almost invariably also a Conservative. Atheism does not anchor itself to any particular point on the political spectrum, so despite us being the largest minority in the country, we have no political presence.

I thought you meant that we felt isolated in the sense of "I'm alone in the universe," sort of a reaction to the theist belief that they have a celestial father.

 

[wynn]

I hate to say this to you, Wynn, but I must: Grow up. Seriously, grow up.

Oh, you are too mature for me. I must refrain from talking to you any further.

 

[Trooper]

You mean isolated from each other? Oh, well, yes, I can imagine that. Atheism is not a binding worldview like various brands of theism are. For example, if you are an Evangelical in the US, you are almost invariably also a Conservative. Atheism does not anchor itself to any particular point on the political spectrum, so despite us being the largest minority in the country, we have no political presence.

Oh, I thought that you were trying to say that it was a misapprehension. Perhaps, cultivated by prejudice because we do outnumber the religious Jews, yet the Jewish lobby is very influential in politics.

It's lonely at the top.

Your replies to me have always been rhetorical questions. What do you believe in, wynn? Do you believe in an afterlife?

 

[Balerion]

Oh, you are too mature for me. I must refrain from talking to you any further.

More trolling. :shrug:

 

[Chipz]

I've read many stories from lonely atheists but maybe you're right. Perhaps, the isolation of American atheists is just an illusion. :shrug:

How so? I've worked with Jews, Hindus, Christians of sorts and I assume Atheists. I couldn't tell you whose who (unless they've indicated it to me explicitly) in a lineup. In my day to day I don't really care about your religion. In almost 99%+ of contexts it doesn't matter. If they feel lonely it's by choice.

 

[Trooper]

How so? I've worked with Jews, Hindus, Christians of sorts and I assume Atheists. I couldn't tell you whose who (unless they've indicated it to me explicitly) in a lineup. In my day to day I don't really care about your religion. In almost 99%+ of contexts it doesn't matter. If they feel lonely it's by choice.

Really? Because studies and polls indicate that we are the most distrusted and hated minority group. John Locke promoted religious toleration, with atheism being the one notable exception, and from what I can tell, it hasn’t changed much. American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t really extend to atheists.

“Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a God.” ~John Locke

“I esteem that toleration to be the chief characteristic mark of the true church. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of toleration.” ~John Locke

 

[Balerion]

Really? Because studies and polls indicate that we are the most distrusted and hated minority group. John Locke promoted religious toleration, with atheism being the one notable exception, and from what I can tell, it hasn’t changed much. American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t really extend to atheists.

“Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a God.” ~John Locke

“I esteem that toleration to be the chief characteristic mark of the true church. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of toleration.” ~John Locke

Wait, so you mean atheists just feel lonely in general? Like they're social outcasts or something? No, that I don't believe for one second. I mean, sure, in some situations that's probably true, but in general? I can't imagine that. There's nothing about atheism that would ostracize someone from the general public.

 

[Trooper]

Wait, so you mean atheists just feel lonely in general? Like they're social outcasts or something? No, that I don't believe for one second. I mean, sure, in some situations that's probably true, but in general? I can't imagine that. There's nothing about atheism that would ostracize someone from the general public.

Really? Where do you live? Google "atheists the most hated minority" and just for shits and giggles, try wearing an atheist T-shirt around for awhile.

 

[Chipz]

Really? Where do you live? Google "atheists the most hated minority" and just for shits and giggles, try wearing an atheist T-shirt around for awhile.

Even if it were true that atheists were the most hated group based on belief selection polling... so what? People across the board probably have a greater dislike of people who advertise their beliefs than those who don't.

 

[Trooper]

Even if it were true that atheists were the most hated group based on belief selection polling... so what? People across the board probably have a greater dislike of people who advertise their beliefs than those who don't.

Should religious beliefs be a private matter, then?

Goodnight, Chipz. :sleep:

 

[Balerion]

Should religious beliefs be a private matter, then?

Goodnight, Chipz. :sleep:

Don't even bother with him. He's the 15th sock puppet of a long-ago banned user who somehow managed to get the admin to give him a pardon. His contributions have been about as good as they've ever been. uke:

 

[Chipz]

Should religious beliefs be a private matter, then?

Goodnight, Chipz. :sleep:

It's up to you how you advertise your religious beliefs. I'm just saying I know probably less than 1% of the religions of people I meet regularly, it never crosses my mind since it doesn't matter...especially in professional situations.

Don't even bother with him. He's the 15th sock puppet of a long-ago banned user who somehow managed to get the admin to give him a pardon. His contributions have been about as good as they've ever been. uke:

I'm the first 'sock' of a user who got intentionally banned through spamming.