If Christians are sinful, then why listen to them?

[Grantywanty]

Not if they are giving you a message from a sinless perfect infallable God.

From your perspective. But you can see how from his perspective they may very well have chosen the wrong god. For example Muslims and Christians will each perform the same act with the same certainty: come and believe in this god. Since the Christians at least are presenting themselves as fallible why should he trust them? How does he know that they have not chosen the wrong God, the wrong Bible, etc.?

 

[Grantywanty]

People are compassionate, moral and ethical, as long as cults don't get in the way.

Can you back this up with some studies? (I assume you consider communists as cult members and not simply as atheists, but could you provide some evidence that people who are not in cults as you put it are moral and ethical and do not, for example, end up committing crimes at the same levels, etc. As far as war we really don't have secular nations yet - unless you go for communist ones, but I somehow doubt you do - so how do we know secular nations will be less violent, etc.?)

Strive to be human. Never listen to prophets.

Strive to be humane, I can undersand. What did you mean?

 

[greenberg]

A fallible person declaration of truth is necessarily a lucky guess.

I don't think this holds. I am a fallible person and there are certain areas where I will repeatedly do better than guessers. I am also fallible within those areas.

That you might be better than guessers doesn't matter.

If you don't know why and how that which you claim to be true, is true, your declared knowledge of truth is still no different from a lucky guess.

Part of actually knowing the truth is knowing why and how it is the truth.

 

[John99]

Can you back this up with some studies? (I assume you consider communists as cult members and not simply as atheists, but could you provide some evidence that people who are not in cults as you put it are moral and ethical and do not, for example, end up committing crimes at the same levels, etc. As far as war we really don't have secular nations yet - unless you go for communist ones, but I somehow doubt you do - so how do we know secular nations will be less violent, etc.?)

The results are always far, far worse.

From what i have seen Atheism is NOT the way for a thriving, positive civilization. The reasons are many, and this is not to say that a portion of population can not or should not consider themselves Atheist. I believe that when a group of people demand that everyone be just like them what difference does it make if it is due to religion or if it is not?

First of all how do you STOP people from believing? Why would you want to? I just do not understand the mindset of these people it is like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer represents all Atheists. See the correlation?

As far as cults, you join a cult the minute you are born, isn't that common knowledge. Not only that but i don't understand the question: 'If Christians are sinful, then why listen to them?'

Does you mean if humans are sinful, then why listen to them? :shrug: How do you answer a question like that?

 

[greenberg]

Not only that but i don't understand the question: 'If Christians are sinful, then why listen to them?'

I explained throughout the thread.

Does you mean if humans are sinful, then why listen to them? :shrug: How do you answer a question like that?

If a man told you he was crazy and then told you something he claimed to be the truth - would you simply listen to him and believe him?

 

[John99]

I explained throughout the thread.




If a man told you he was crazy and then told you something he claimed to be the truth - would you simply listen to him and believe him?

Oh man, that should be do

Depends on the circumstances if i would believe him. What post did you explain it in?

 

[John99]

If they are imperfect and fallible - how then can they be taken as reliable messengers of the Gospel??

Would you listen to someone telling you about God if that person himself declared to be imperfect and fallible?

If an accountant told you right away that he is imperfect and fallible, you wouldn't hire his services, would you?

I just seen this. I would say the accountant is honest, which may not be what some people are looking for.

 

[(Q)]

As far as war we really don't have secular nations yet - unless you go for communist ones

Yet, another one that doesn't understand communism. Sheeesh.

but I somehow doubt you do - so how do we know secular nations will be less violent, etc.?

Uh, because the are.

"In reality, the most secular countries-those with the highest proportion of atheists and agnostics-are among the most stable, peaceful, free, wealthy, and healthy societies. And the most religious nations-wherein worship of God is in abundance-are among the most unstable, violent, oppressive, poor, and destitute.

One must always be careful, of course, to distinguish between totalitarian nations where atheism is forced upon an unwilling population (such as in North Korea, China, Vietnam, and the former Soviet states) and open, democratic nations where atheism is freely chosen by a well-educated population (as in Sweden, the Netherlands, or Japan). The former nations' nonreligion, which can be described as "coercive atheism," is plagued by all that comes with totalitarianism: corruption, economic stagnation, censorship, depression, and the like. However, nearly every nation with high levels of "organic atheism" is a veritable model of societal health."

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

 

[greenberg]

Depends on the circumstances if i would believe him.

What circumstances, for example?

(Bringing up circumstances is new so far in this thread.)

 

[Adstar]

How am I -being fallible myself and having no first-hand knowledge of God- to know whether someone is "giving me a message from a sinless perfect infallable God"?

The exact same way that we who do give His message are able to, God who can make a fallible person His messenger can also make the fallible person listening sense the deep truths being revealed.

How am -being fallible myself and having no first-hand knowledge of God- to know whether a Christian is "doing a good job"?

Ask God to confirm the message within you. But then again if one's will is bent on resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit their searching for truth is a great vanity.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Adstar]

From your perspective. But you can see how from his perspective they may very well have chosen the wrong god. For example Muslims and Christians will each perform the same act with the same certainty: come and believe in this god. Since the Christians at least are presenting themselves as fallible why should he trust them? How does he know that they have not chosen the wrong God, the wrong Bible, etc.?

If People believe that followers of the Messiah Jesus have chosen the wrong God then it must come from the belief that the bibles revelation of God is wrong and that the qurans revelation of God is right. Therefore they will either be justified or condemned by what they accept as Good or what they reject as evil.

As for the presentation of being fallible. I would never trust any person who claimed to be infallible, I think most human beings realise that other people are fallible if people think that there are infallible people around i feel sorry for them indeed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nikkmon]

If Christians are sinful (some will even say they are evil at heart), then why listen to them?

Isn't listening to people who say they are sinful (ie. imperfect, fallible, evil even) completely stupid?!

By that logic, listening to anyone is completely stupid since we are all inperfect. Being a Christian myself I wouldnt advise you to "listen to me" simply because of that fact, but I would share with you my experiences and beliefs in hopes that they would help you in some way. I may even suggest some reading for you to investigate things further yourself. What I would never do is say that you should listen to me because I am a Christian.

 

[madanthonywayne]

If Christians are sinful (some will even say they are evil at heart), then why listen to them?

Isn't listening to people who say they are sinful (ie. imperfect, fallible, evil even) completely stupid?!

The Christian statement of the imperfection of man is not really different from Plato saying that true wisdom lies in admitting that you know nothing.

They are simply lessons in humility. No one is perfect. No one is always correct. No one always does the right thing. That's what the philosophers and the Christians are saying. Can you dispute it? Have you lived a perfect life? Always doing the right thing?

You must admit you're fallible to keep an open mind and maintain the ability to recognize and learn from your mistakes.

 

[greenberg]

The Christian statement of the imperfection of man is not really different from Plato saying that true wisdom lies in admitting that you know nothing.

They are simply lessons in humility. No one is perfect. No one is always correct. No one always does the right thing. That's what the philosophers and the Christians are saying. Can you dispute it? Have you lived a perfect life? Always doing the right thing?

You must admit you're fallible to keep an open mind and maintain the ability to recognize and learn from your mistakes.

What's your point?

That the Christian proselytizing is to be taken as a "lesson in humility" and that we are to believe them and believe in their God?