If Christians are sinful, then why listen to them?

greenberg said:
If Christians are sinful (some will even say they are evil at heart), then why listen to them?
Isn't listening to people who say they are sinful (ie. imperfect, fallible, evil even) completely stupid?!
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Because the born-agains are telling you the truth. They are doing God's work. They are following His orders to be fishers of men. They are trying to save your soul despite your objections. Most of them have been where you are. They don't ever want to go back. :)

You listen to teachers, bosses, "experts", scientists etc and they're not perfect. No one is perfect except Him.
 
ashura said:
So, you agree that not listening to Christians on account of their fallibility is bad reasoning?
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No.

I said earlier:

A fallible person cannot knowingly discern whether something is true or reliable. A fallible person cannot tell the truth from a lucky guess.
Thus, a fallible person cannot be trusted to speak the truth.
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A fallible person might even speak the truth. But a fallible person cannot know how or why it is the truth. As such, a fallible person's speaking of truth is no different from a lucky guess.

A fallible person declaration of truth is necessarily a lucky guess.
 
What's your point? Like I said, that applies to everyone because everyone is fallible. So not listening on accounts of fallibility is foolish. Instead, what regular people like me and (hopefully) you do is base our judgement on other factors. ie. Do we know this person? What kind of qualifications does he/she have regarding what they're telling me? etc.
 
ashura said:
What's your point? Like I said, that applies to everyone because everyone is fallible. So not listening on accounts of fallibility is foolish.
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In the case of Christians who proselytize, dismissing them on account of their professed fallibility is all we have - because this is pretty much all they are willing to give us.


Instead, what regular people like me and (hopefully) you do is base our judgement on other factors. ie. Do we know this person? What kind of qualifications does he/she have regarding what they're telling me? etc.
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Proselytizers, in my experience, are usually not willing to give the person the chance to get to know them, at least not as good as the person would like.

To assess the proselytizer's qualifications requires that one know the proselytizer's field better than the proselytizer himself.

You see the implications of this, right?
 
So, are we now talking about dismissing the proselytizing of Christian as opposed to the dismissing of Christians on account of their fallibility? That's a better stance, though not much better. Because I still don't think you dismiss the proselytizing based on fallibility. Rather, you do it because you have better things to do, or because you're not interested, or because you don't know the person, etc. It's not because of their fallibility. They just happen to be fallible.
 
ashura said:
That's a better stance, though not much better. Because I still don't think you dismiss the proselytizing based on fallibility. Rather, you do it because you have better things to do, or because you're not interested, or because you don't know the person, etc. It's not because of their fallibility. They just happen to be fallible.
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But look at the interreligious discussions, forums like this ... !
 
greenberg said:
If Christians are sinful (some will even say they are evil at heart), then why listen to them?

Isn't listening to people who say they are sinful (ie. imperfect, fallible, evil even) completely stupid?!
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Totally stupid. Sin is a religious concept that has no meaning in reality. It is as fallacious a concept as religious morals and ethics. Meaningless.
 
greenberg said:
If Christians are sinful (some will even say they are evil at heart), then why listen to them?

Isn't listening to people who say they are sinful (ie. imperfect, fallible, evil even) completely stupid?!
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No, because all people are imperfect, fallible and evil.

Strive to be rightous.

Why should you listen to us christians? Listen to the one we follow!
 
Cyperium said:
No, because all people are imperfect, fallible and evil.
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People are compassionate, moral and ethical, as long as cults don't get in the way.

Strive to be rightous.

Why should you listen to us christians? Listen to the one we follow!
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Strive to be human. Never listen to prophets.
 
greenberg said:
Yes, I do. Because all I have ever heard about God, I have heard from people. Never from God himself. I have no first-hand knowledge of God.
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Your intellectual honesty is much appreciated. Carry on. :)
 
greenberg said:
But look at the interreligious discussions, forums like this ... !
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What about them? The majority of them are, like you said, discussions and not true proselytizing. If you equate what some theists here are saying in these discussions to proselytizing, then atheists such as I are guilty of it as well.
 
well, being a Christian, we have accepted that all humans are imperfect, but through God we can become perfect. Some people are what is described as 'sunday christians' and there are those who have opened their hearts to Jesus, and felt his presence inside them. They became better people. Not perfect, because the human mind and heart have things such as greed and jealousy, and they can overpower the mind and push out God. Unlike what almost every (I hate to be stereotypical) other religion says, we don't think that we are better than anyone else, because we're not. We believe that if we are all equal in God's eyes, then we are all equal. Of course, the mind holds stereotypes and racial thoughts no matter how hard we try to get rid of them, but through God we can help to get rid of them.
 
greenberg said:
If Christians are sinful (some will even say they are evil at heart), then why listen to them?

Isn't listening to people who say they are sinful (ie. imperfect, fallible, evil even) completely stupid?!
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Not if they are giving you a message from a sinless perfect infallable God.

If a Christian is doing a good job then they are not giving anything of themselves but only of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
Not if they are giving you a message from a sinless perfect infallable God.

If a Christian is doing a good job then they are not giving anything of themselves but only of God.
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How am I -being fallible myself and having no first-hand knowledge of God- to know whether someone is "giving me a message from a sinless perfect infallable God"?

How am -being fallible myself and having no first-hand knowledge of God- to know whether a Christian is "doing a good job"?
 
greenberg said:
Of course. But in order to go through with this "test" properly, in accord with their instructions, one has to be willing to give it the rest of one's life.

Not a day, not a week, not a year, not ten years - but the rest of life.

One is expected to go through with this "test" without imposing any limitations in terms of time and effort.

To say "I am going to give God a chance, I will do as the Christians have instructed me for 5 years. And if I am not convinced, I will give up." is considered unacceptable.
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Is that a widespread phenomenon? My God. I do have some contact with Christians out in the real world. I never got that impression. They leave me alone as far as beliefs. I absolutely agree, that is a joke.

In that case their being fallible is definitely an issue. A life is a big ante.
 
greenberg said:
No.

A fallible person declaration of truth is necessarily a lucky guess.
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I don't think this holds. I am a fallible person and there are certain areas where I will repeatedly do better than guessers. I am also fallible within those areas.
 
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