water said:If a man forsakes God
If a man forsakes God, does God forsake him in return?
Can a man cause God to forsake him?
Under what conditions does God do that?
How does God do that?
What does the forsaken one experience?
Warrior61 said:Are you asking about Eternal Salvation?
evil,bitter?Jenyar said:Jer. 2:19 .. Consider then and realise how evil and bitter it is for you when you forsake the LORD your God and have no awe of me, declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty.
and with GodWithout God, death is all there is,
and your point is???and every day is more of the same, whatever you make of it, until you die.
speak for yourself,dude some of us are happy with what we have.You'll simply experience life as you are able to see it, and almost everything someone else has will make you jealous.
more horseshit,You won't be able to be content, or have peace.
Jenyar,Jenyar said:Without God, death is all there is, and every day is more of the same, whatever you make of it, until you die. You'll simply experience life as you are able to see it, and almost everything someone else has will make you jealous. You won't be able to be content, or have peace. Something will always drive you, because you have to take care of yourself or give up... be better than other people or be trampled by them. Trample and be trampled on.
because God has said, 'Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you'
Of course you don't have to experience it this way, and Christians don't necessarily experience God more. No, my argument is not the idealistic one you suppose. God is not insurance against suffering, and Christianity is not a guarantee of bliss.Raithere said:How do you explain then that my experience is so much the opposite?
I enjoy life, am content and peaceful but also constantly wondering, often excited, and almost always happy. I am not jealous or combative or even overly competitive (although I enjoy the challenge of a good game or argument). I take care of myself as best I can and strive to find ways to help others. I view obstacles, setbacks, and misfortune as a challenges or chances to experience the fullness of life. Even in times of deepest grief I can find the sheer experience of life fulfilling.
The story you're telling is a fairy tale. Even the most ardent believers face misfortune and death and atheists do not suffer more even though they have abandoned God. Most people I know (primarily Christians) seem to have a much more difficult time getting though these things than I, the atheist. Many times I have found myself consoling and counseling them through their grief and confusion.
God is not a panacea for all of life's tribulations; rather it seems to me only to offer a distant illusion of hope to the hopeless. I find it false and unkind of you to tell others that faith in God will protect them from life's misfortunes.
Yes, since the covenant was, after all:SnakeLord said:2 Chronicles 1-3 [Actually 1 Chronicles 28:9, repeated in 2 Chronicles 7:18-20] The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.
Oopsie. Shall we continue?
2 Kings 21:14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;
Jeremiah 23:38-40 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you.
Thanks... I think... although I don't know if I like God getting the credit for my effort. But in a metaphorical sense I agree with you to a certain extent.Jenyar said:But the fact that you exhibit Christ-like qualties, and consider them good qualities, shows that God's law is written in people's hearts. We drink from the same fountain. You act with conscience, "with knowledge", and that is what God expects of people -- this is love, this is what gives people hope.
Actually, I do think they make sense and are even self-evident given a modicum of thought. Most simply we can look to those values that are prevalent throughout human societies and across religions. Logically, cooperation and compassion make sense as well. There are any number of valid arguments for certain moral values IMO.But why? You constantly strive to help people, to share your happiness with them, but where does it come from? By what standards do you measure your lifestyle to call it "good", and do you feel accountable to them? If you think these things are self evident, common sense -- they're not.
The problem I have with God is that he does not agree with mine, depending of course upon who is speaking for him.Forsaking God seems an easy decision intellectually, but is much harder in practice, if you actually agree with his laws, his regard for humanity and his definition of love.
Should I be wrong and find myself before God I have no problem with this. Of course, I will likewise hold him accountable.You have not been forsaken by God, because you have not forsaken Him in word and deed (although that does not make you innocent, you are held accountable by God).
SnakeLord said:It most certainly is m00t given the thread. Water asked if god would forsake people. Your very first comment regarding that question was a biblical quote where god says he will never forsake you. You even went so far as to put 'never' in bold text - as if to make a statement that 'never' is an important word in that quote.
I then showed biblical text showing that 'never' is wrong, whether it's in bold or not. If you were talking in a "certain context" as you claim, then there would have been no reason to put 'never' in bold.
Water asked if god can forsake people. I showed that he can, while you highlighted never.
We done?