Idiocy, Compulsion, Gratitude, Nobility or Deception?

KUMAR5 said:
In short, such animals are being treated as a thing not as a being.
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yes, most of the time but animal rights activists are trying to change that because they are not 'thing's but living beings that feel and suffer. and yes, they are being decieved as humans take advantage of their weaknesses and their blindspots (unaware they are being used or exploited as in motive) in comparison to us.

if you want to blame something, blame the universe, because ultimately that's the way it runs here (predatorial). i don't agree with it myself as this place is like a nightmare you woke up to if you have any ethics at all.
 
birch said:
yes, most of the time but animal rights activists are trying to change that because they are not 'thing's but living beings that feel and suffer. and yes, they are being decieved as humans take advantage of their weaknesses and their blindspots (unaware they are being used or exploited as in motive) in comparison to us.

if you want to blame something, blame the universe, because ultimately that's the way it runs here (predatorial). i don't agree with it myself as this place is like a nightmare you woke up to if you have any ethics at all.
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But nature or universe does not run this way. Hunting i.e just killing but not emotionally developed killing is the way of universe.
 
billvon said:
?? Animals have a limited understanding of the concept of "guardians" or "companions." Wolves understand pack dynamics, including having a leader. Apes understand having companions; they have mates, friends and enemies. However, asking whether they feel deceived, or noble, or betrayed, is projecting human feelings onto an animal. While many animals have emotions that are similar to ours, it is a mistake to say "well, I would feel X if someone did Y to me, so therefore animals feel X too." Animals are different than people.

Most farmers do consider animals to be things - specifically, livestock.
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We have to look from animals POV. In nature, hunting is the prefered method not farming, domestication. By this way, atleast animals are not decepted and got killed with emotion. It can make a difference if a father kill or unknown person kill.
 
KUMAR5 said:
We have to look from animals POV.
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Why?
In nature, hunting is the prefered method not farming, domestication.
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Ants domesticate and farm aphids. The parasitic fungus Ophiocordyceps unilateralis domesticates (takes over) ants, coerces them to climb nearby grass stalks, forces them to clamp on to the grass, then grows out of the ant's head to spore and reproduce (which is even crueler than what we do.) Cats torture mice before eating them for no reason.

I wouldn't try to make the "nature is so much kinder" argument if I were you.
By this way, atleast animals are not decepted and got killed with emotion.
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?? Who gets killed with emotion?
It can make a difference if a father kill or unknown person kill.
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?? Whose father is killing them?
 
birch said:
if you want to blame something, blame the universe, because ultimately that's the way it runs here (predatorial). i don't agree with it myself as this place is like a nightmare you woke up to if you have any ethics at all.
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There is far more cooperation, coordination, symbiosis, mutualism, etc, than predation, in the biological world.

The ethics of eat or be eaten are hellish.
The ethics of eat and be eaten are not.
 
billvon said:
?? Who gets killed with emotion?
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he thinks it's only that humans gain the trust of animals to exploit but i'm not sure if that's true. there are ant species that mimic pheromones to deceive another ant colony into taking care of their young while theirs is eaten. uh, i just can't..that's hellish and scummy.
 
birch said:
he thinks it's only that humans gain the trust of animals to exploit but i'm not sure if that's true. there are ant species that mimic pheromones to deceive another ant colony into taking care of their young while theirs is eaten. uh, i just can't..that's hellish and scummy.
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Yep. European cuckoos lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. The larger cuckoo hatchlings kill all the other young and get the parents to feed it. If the parents catch on and oust the cuckoo, the cuckoo's parents come back and destroy all the other eggs/hatchlings in the nest.

Charming.
 
birch said:
he thinks it's only that humans gain the trust of animals to exploit but i'm not sure if that's true.
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How does Kumar see this as this qualitatively different than a camouflauged lion hiding in the grass near a herd of gazelle?

More complex creatures outsmart less complex creatures and eat them because more complex creatures need the processed energy that comes from eating meat as opposed to eating grass.
That has been the relationship between predator and prey for time immemorial.
 
More complex creatures outsmart less complex creatures and eat them because more complex creatures need the processed energy that comes from eating meat as opposed to eating grass.
That has been the relationship between predator and prey for time immemorial.
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paradoxically, but when it comes to humans, this gets turned around again. the most intelligent, complex and evolved people i've ever met or known usually lean towards vegetarianism or are totally vegan as well as highly ethically concerned and their values do not coincide with the lower animal nature. otoh, the dumbest, depraved and simplest people i've met are carnivores or mostly.
 
birch said:
paradoxically, but when it comes to humans, this gets turned around again. the most intelligent, complex and evolved people i've ever met or known usually lean towards vegetarianism or are totally vegan as well as highly ethically concerned and their values do not coincide with the lower animal nature. otoh, the dumbest and simplest people i've met are carnivores or mostly.
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That smacks strongly of both personal anecdote and generalization.
Vegetarianism versus carnovorianism is not intelligence-based.
 
billvon said:
Why?

Ants domesticate and farm aphids. The parasitic fungus Ophiocordyceps unilateralis domesticates (takes over) ants, coerces them to climb nearby grass stalks, forces them to clamp on to the grass, then grows out of the ant's head to spore and reproduce (which is even crueler than what we do.) Cats torture mice before eating them for no reason.

I wouldn't try to make the "nature is so much kinder" argument if I were you.

?? Who gets killed with emotion?

?? Whose father is killing them?
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Simply, whether human kill those animals, which they initially adapt, breed, farm, nurse, domesticize, show love and affection but later kill on a dark day to them, is natural,? Hunting and type you told can be natural but that type human now commonly do should not be natural. Atleast no emotion and deception is involved in former.
 
DaveC426913 said:
How does Kumar see this as this qualitatively different than a camouflauged lion hiding in the grass near a herd of gazelle?

More complex creatures outsmart less complex creatures and eat them because more complex creatures need the processed energy that comes from eating meat as opposed to eating grass.
That has been the relationship between predator and prey for time immemorial.
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I think, we need to differenciate between natural happenings and unnatural doings. Former may be necessary for natural balance but later can cause natural imbalance.
 
There is no such thing as "natural balance". There are meta-stable conditions, but nature is always out of balance and ecosystems could collapse any time.
 
KUMAR5 said:
Animals should be considering us as beings--somewhat like god father, parent like guardian or companion but we may be considering those like things which we can use anyway we like.
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I think we can ethically use animals for things like meat and other uses. Being a living thing does not grant beings the same rights as we humans extend to each other. Is it unethical when a shark eats a person? No. Neither is it unethical when a human eats a cow.
 
KUMAR5 said:
Simply, whether human kill those animals, which they initially adapt, breed, farm, nurse, domesticize, show love and affection but later kill on a dark day to them, is natural,?
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Uh - have you ever been to a large farm? There is no "show love and affection." They raise livestock and slaughter them later.
Hunting and type you told can be natural but that type human now commonly do should not be natural. Atleast no emotion and deception is involved in former.
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So duck hunting, hiding in a duck blind and using a duck call to attract ducks before shooting them with a shotgun, involves no deception?

Go out with a hunter one day, then stop by a factory farm. Your preconceptions may change pretty radically.
 
iceaura said:
There is far more cooperation, coordination, symbiosis, mutualism, etc, than predation, in the biological world.

The ethics of eat or be eaten are hellish.
The ethics of eat and be eaten are not.
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Yes, we should not base only one side of nature.
 
spidergoat said:
There is no such thing as "natural balance". There are meta-stable conditions, but nature is always out of balance and ecosystems could collapse any time.
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Even is nature most of time is out of balance, can not mean nature balance is invalid. Simply mature tendency to achieve balance always exist but rarely achieved. So it may appear to us that it do not exist. I am not sure, if it is named differently now, may be fine tuned universe.
 
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