I don't care if it does not affect me...

S.A.M. said:
Do you feel guilty if you don't brush your teeth? I'm wondering why habituation is criminal. If you were walking on the street and you saw an unescorted child alone, would you do something about it or would you walk past?
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If the child seemed to young to be alone or looked scared or lost, I would go and talk to the child and help. And my parents did not send me out to do community service. They were, however, kind and concerned people. I cannot follow all the causal chains, but I think we mess things up when we try to make good people. This does not mean that parents hold back reactions to things their children do and don't do. But when you set out to make a child good you tend to cause damage, directly, indirectly, societally.
What factors would influence either course of action? What makes you care or not care?
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Being treated with both respect and kindness and empathy seem to have made me care. I got used to the idea that other people were connected to me, that my feelings affected them, and their feelings affected me. My parents did not try to make me a future moral citizen. As far as I can see that training in disrespect also.

Also if I look around the world I see a lot of people who feel entitled to train other people how to be good.

I think child rearing techniques are directly causal in this.
 
(Q) said:
People who are forced to volunteer would care less as their paychecks are tapped, hence would leave an unescorted child alone and would simply state in passing, "I gave at the office."
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You're confusing money for services. Brushing your teeth does not make you less likely to care about them.

Simon Anders said:
But when you set out to make a child good you tend to cause damage, directly, indirectly, societally.

I think child rearing techniques are directly causal in this.
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Don't you find the two statements to be contradictory? Did your parents NOT set out to make you a good child?

Did the child rearing practice NOT impact your outlook?
 
S.A.M. said:
Don't you find the two statements to be contradictory? Did your parents NOT set out to make you a good child?
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Actually they presumed I was good. They did not decide things along the lines of "If we do this, he will become good."

Did the child rearing practice NOT impact your outlook?
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But of course. You cannot avoid have some sort of practice, though the words can be rather abstract and misleading when something more natural takes place. The point was that the did not sit there and try to figure out how to transform a neutral or potentially evil creature into a good human. That way of conceiving of the child places splits in the child that 1) cause backfires which can be seen in a world of people who parents from religious or other standpoints tried to MAKE good adults out of their children and 2) is damaging to the child because it inspirse (an often unconscious) self-doubt and feeling that one is ready to fall into the arms of lucifer (for some) or give in the irrational impulses that make us into animals amongst some of the various fears of religious and secular lets make the little beast into a good person via training child rearing camp.
 
Simon Anders said:
Actually they presumed I was good. They did not decide things along the lines of "If we do this, he will become good."

But of course. You cannot avoid have some sort of practice, though the words can be rather abstract and misleading when something more natural takes place. The point was that the did not sit there and try to figure out how to transform a neutral or potentially evil creature into a good human. That way of conceiving of the child places splits in the child that 1) cause backfires which can be seen in a world of people who parents from religious or other standpoints tried to MAKE good adults out of their children and 2) is damaging to the child because it inspirse (an often unconscious) self-doubt and feeling that one is ready to fall into the arms of lucifer (for some) or give in the irrational impulses that make us into animals amongst some of the various fears of religious and secular lets make the little beast into a good person via training child rearing camp.
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So you are saying that positive and possibly negative reinforcement was not used deliberately by your parents?
 
S.A.M. said:
So you are saying that positive and possibly negative reinforcement was not used deliberately by your parents?
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I think it is pretty clear what I am saying. They would not have considered telling me to do community service so that I cared more than the people you think do not feel enough about some the suffering and problems in the world. I think I made it clear what the distinction was in their child rearing was that would keep them from considering this.

I acknowledge that you are as clever as Plato. Nevertheless we have a fundamental disagreement and I do not believe I or my parents contradicted themselves.

I assume you are not concerned about any of the issues I raised about the negative effects of 'making good adults out of neutral, bad or potentially indifferent little children' pedagogy and child rearing. That there cannot be, in your view detrimental effects from this. And that the problems today cannot be in part or even largely attributed to this philosophy that you share with a great many others. It seems you are so certain of this that you feel you need only try to box me in rather than addressing the issue in a broader way. On the other hand I always felt that Plato - or his character, perhaps accurately potrayed real person, Socrates was very good at sleight of abstraction.

But then if you think that my parents' approach was 'really the same' after all, then I can assume you approve of it.
 
I will quickly answer the OP, then we can all go to sleep:

Why should you care, if it doesn't effect you? there are so much shits around the world that if we cared about everything, we would be busybodies and wouldn't have time for our own shit. Just because we are able to get information about shit, that doesn't mean we should GIVE a shit about it...

End of story...
 
Syzygys said:
I will quickly answer the OP, then we can all go to sleep:

Why should you care, if it doesn't effect you? there are so much shits around the world that if we cared about everything, we would be busybodies and wouldn't have time for our own shit. Just because we are able to get information about shit, that doesn't mean we should GIVE a shit about it...

End of story...
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But you cared enough about the OP writer and their situation to make this suggestion
 
Simon Anders said:
But you cared enough about the OP writer and their situation to make this suggestion
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I never said I didn't care. I just explained why one wouldn't care. Clear now?

Enmos said:
If I don't care it doesn't affect me..
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That is one incredibly stupid statement. Refutal: you might not care about the price of gas, but it sure effects you...
 
Syzygys said:
I never said I didn't care. I just explained why one wouldn't care. Clear now?
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Not really.

Why should you care, if it doesn't effect you? there are so much shits around the world that if we cared about everything, we would be busybodies and wouldn't have time for our own shit. Just because we are able to get information about shit, that doesn't mean we should GIVE a shit about it...
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Simon Anders said:
I think it is pretty clear what I am saying. They would not have considered telling me to do community service so that I cared more than the people you think do not feel enough about some the suffering and problems in the world. I think I made it clear what the distinction was in their child rearing was that would keep them from considering this.

I acknowledge that you are as clever as Plato. Nevertheless we have a fundamental disagreement and I do not believe I or my parents contradicted themselves.

I assume you are not concerned about any of the issues I raised about the negative effects of 'making good adults out of neutral, bad or potentially indifferent little children' pedagogy and child rearing. That there cannot be, in your view detrimental effects from this. And that the problems today cannot be in part or even largely attributed to this philosophy that you share with a great many others. It seems you are so certain of this that you feel you need only try to box me in rather than addressing the issue in a broader way. On the other hand I always felt that Plato - or his character, perhaps accurately potrayed real person, Socrates was very good at sleight of abstraction.

But then if you think that my parents' approach was 'really the same' after all, then I can assume you approve of it.
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So in your opinion, if a parent made a habit, for example, out of sending their children with food to the local orphanage on festival days, or for example, distributing secret Santa gifts in poor neighborhoods, this would irrevocably damage the child, because they did it deliberately to cultivate community service in their child?

That if a school undertook as a course in their curriculum, a social work class where children would tutor underprivileged children, this would create mean, nasty individulas who would hate themselves?

Explain to me a context in which you see compulsory community service as damaging to the child.
 
Sam:

Explain to me a context in which you see compulsory community service as damaging to the child.
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Human history from 4,000 BC to the 20th century. Aka: Slavery.

"Compulsory community service" is slavery.
 
S.A.M. said:
So in your opinion, if a parent made a habit, for example, out of sending their children with food to the local orphanage on festival days, or for example, distributing secret Santa gifts in poor neighborhoods, this would irrevocably damage the child, because they did it deliberately to cultivate community service in their child?
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I don't want to make a general rule about behavior. I am making a general rule about an attitude. Yes, if the parents are thinking this will make my kid into a good person, I think it does damage. Let alone the issue of whether it really works, in general.
That if a school undertook as a course in their curriculum, a social work class where children would tutor underprivileged children, this would create mean, nasty individulas who would hate themselves?
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I think schools in general have the attitude of making moral adults have taught children that their present selves and interests are secondary to their future behavior, thus setting in place getting used to being treated in a utilitarian fashion. Getting used to being pressed into a certain shape, rather than being encouraged to find the shape that you want to find. I think this is one of history's 'paved with good intentions' roads.

The above example of yours is taking one class and trying to make a reductio ad absurdum out of my argument with it. In fact the attitude is vastly more endemic and does not need your advocacy. Schools and parents have been making 'moral' adults for years. The problem is that this process is founded on disrespect and assumptions that are precisely like the attitudes colonialists have for the members of other cultures.

Children are seen as barbarians to be civilized in precisely the same ways and with precisely the same fearful outlook.

And the system has had as poor outcomes.


Explain to me a context in which you see compulsory community service as damaging to the child.
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In the context where the adults think they must force their child to be a good person. Which is the context presented in this thread. And really it would have to be the context. In that context the child is getting damaged slightly all the time.

We are so used to this damage that we consider it normal.
 
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Enmos said:
LOL you guys don't actually think I was serious.. right ? :p
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Other people, I believe, have expressed, basically, that opinion. Perhaps if I was hanging out with you in person, it would be obvious, but here, on the internet, I got no way of knowing.
 
Simon Anders said:
Other people, I believe, have expressed, basically, that opinion. Perhaps if I was hanging out with you in person, it would be obvious, but here, on the internet, I got no way of knowing.
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True. We haven't spoken that much.. but anyone around here that knows me should have known that wasn't serious :)
 
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