I Can't Say Gay!

[CounslerCoffee]

I know Asguard. I never say words like that. It's all the other 18 year olds on my belt. Im practically the oldest one (20).

Im all for equal rights and tolerance. But when Im told that Im not allowed to state my opinions about gays, then Im going to get mad. I should have every right to. The main point is that had I supported them then I would not of got in trouble. It's just a bunch of crap.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by one_raven
But that doesn't mean that we have to play along with the bullshit rules rather than try to chage behavior that obviously hurts people or knocks them down.

But there's where you miss the point. We should be CONSTANTLY insulting EVERYONE to the point that IT'S ALL COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Don't you see? It's not that people are hurt.. it's that they're hurt because they are fuckign WEAK and that is HORRIBLE FOR THE SPECIES.

Oh christ I'm yelling now. Pardon.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by wesmorris
What purpose would you see in marriage?

Medical and life insurance benefits?
Child custody upon death of one of them?
Inhereitance?
All the same legal and social issues that heterosexuals take advantage of?

Recognition that homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals?
Understanding and acceptnace of homosexual relationships as valid under the law.

Building a bridge to social acceptance of homosexual couples?

Since homosexuals are the exception rather than the rule, how about offering a reason that the SHOUDLN'T be afforded the same rights and opportunities if that is what they want?

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by wesmorris
Oh christ I'm yelling now. Pardon.

Hell, when are you NOT yelling?


I always believed, and tell people that the only way someone can hurt you is if you give them the power to do so.

However, at the same time, I don't condone going around starting shit and calling people names and devaluing lives and differences between people.

I tell my nephew that no words can hurt him unless he lets them, however, if I caught him calling someone a nigger, I would belt him in the mouth.
It is a matter of respect.

Don;t let the closed minded pricks of the world get you down, but don't sink to their level, either.
Rise above them.
be better than they are.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

Look, you've all turned this into words. This was never really about words. This was about me being censored. Im not allowed to state my opinion on any gay matters. Gay people however, are allowed to. And if I agree with them then Im allowed to state that opinion. Im just not allowed to disagree with them.

Asguard pointed something out to me VIA PM. He said that it's okay to say anything about an issue. Just not about a person. I don't want to call homosexuals fags, I want to be able to have a debate with them and get opinions. That's all. But Im not allowed to. I got censored.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by one_raven
Wesmorris,

That is such cop-out bullshit and you know it.
"I didn't make the rule, but that's the way it is, so just deal with it."
Please!
Why not just say, "It's not MY fault that gays get beat up simply for being gay, they should take martial arts classes and be a real MAN!"

No, it's just saying "I see a cliff, I shouldn't jump off". I'm not copping out, I'm saying quit whining and start insulting people until everyone realizes how ridiculous it is to give stupid insults credence when people could be using it in who knows what way you bitch!

(sorry, just going with the theme, it seemed important I swear)

Oh, and NO, I wasn't speaking to the aspect of crimes being perpetrated against you like assault. If you're gay you probably SHOULD take karate or learn to talk your way out of anything though. That's the cliff thing I mentioned above. If someone literally tries to kick your ass for being gay, I'd help kick their ass. Fuck that, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about words.

Originally posted by one_raven

Just because so many people are racist, people who have crosses burned on their front lawns (it ODES still happen) should just suck it up and move on?

Again, that's not just words.

Originally posted by one_raven

That is the pussy way out.
I prefer to face the problem and deal with it, and TRY (at least) to make a change.

I'm down.

Originally posted by one_raven

I see.
That's what makes a man?
I understand now.

Grr. No freak, what makes a man is whatever the person thinks makes a man, hence your problem Most people thing "testosterone" makes a man. Technically, if a guy acts like a girl he's acting more like a girl than a fucking guy (in terms of the "normal" gender roles)... that means he's less "manly" or less of a man. If you don't think SEX matters, then what the fuck do you care is someone is more of this or less of that. Isn't respect for your PERSON what is important, regardless of how much of whatever you are?

Originally posted by one_raven

Just for the record, I am not gay.
That seems to be your assumption.
I guess because I think sexual orientation discrimination is wrong, I MUST be a fag.

I'd swear I read (your words) that you are a girl living with your girlfriend. Do I need to put down the crackpipe? It was an assumption based on what I thought was your own words. Pardon if I missed.

Originally posted by one_raven

I urge you to stop hiding behing your facade "strength", and actully DO the strong thing.

Stand up against what is wrong even though, "you don't make up the rules".

Originally posted by one_raven

You seem to agree that the rules are wrong.
Be a man, and stand face to face with those that play by them and tell them they are wrong.

I think that is the resultant of a miscommunication and will just let it go unless you bring it back up.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
Look, you've all turned this into words. This was never really about words. This was about me being censored. Im not allowed to state my opinion on any gay matters. Gay people however, are allowed to. And if I agree with them then Im allowed to state that opinion. Im just not allowed to disagree with them.

Selfish bastard. It IS their business and technically they have the right to do whatever. You should find a new job.

Sorry for somewhat hijacking your thread, but I do think the topic of words is quite relevant don't you?

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee

I got censored.

How many people have YOU censored?

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by wesmorris
I'd swear I read (your words) that you are a girl living with your girlfriend. Do I need to put down the crackpipe? It was an assumption based on what I thought was your own words. Pardon if I missed.

Nope.
That would be pretty cool though.
I am a man living with my girlfriend.
People often think my screen name is feminine.
Plus maybe I have stated that my girlfriend is bisexual.
Those things all put together...
It is understandable.
:m:

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by wesmorris
Sorry for somewhat hijacking your thread, but I do think the topic of words is quite relevant don't you?

I agree.
I think often time the issue of whether something is censorship/political correctness or if it is protection from discrimination lies in the details of what exactly was said.

What it really comes down to, however, is your company trying to protect its ass against discrimination lawsuits.

It is bullshit, but understandable.

I accept company ploicy mandated censorship in a commercial environment, but when the government steps into the private sector or public property I take issue with that.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

Selfish bastard. It IS their business and technically they have the right to do whatever. You should find a new job.

Sorry for somewhat hijacking your thread, but I do think the topic of words is quite relevant don't you?

Yes, they do. But I should be able to too. I can't get a new job. This one pays for all of my college. Yes, the word thing is relavent.

How many people have YOU censored?

None. I let everyone be heard. Plus Im only the mod of scifi. The worst thing you could do there is insult farscape.

 

[wesmorris]

Damnit I was supposed to go to bed like two hours ago so this is the last one for tonight:

Originally posted by one_raven
Medical and life insurance benefits?
Child custody upon death of one of them?
Inhereitance?
All the same legal and social issues that heterosexuals take advantage of?

I seriously think it should all be abolished except for people that have kids... heteros shouldn't be allowed to marry until after having children.. then well.. it's important that the kids have parents. Gay people should be able to marry if they could successully adopt someone. Marriage is a tax shelter. It should only be allowed under certain conditions.

However you'd likely have to contemplate how marriage came to be in order to make much sense of this right? I'm not sure, but is it a religious thing? It sure became one if it didn't start out that way.

Rather than perpetuate my BS... I'll just say that I'd agree that the current system is unfair.. but to be understanding, society has just recently accepted gayness as "norm" well, actually still in teh LONG process of changing over to a more sensible mindset. I'd guess that any major change like this takes at minimum a few generations to integrate itself fully. (I realize there have always been gay peopel and in some societies it is more acceptable than others, I'm talking the tightass US)

Originally posted by one_raven

Recognition that homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals?

"rights"? Why is some stupid tax shelter a "right"? I think that's just ick. Hell it's a privelage as far as I'm concerned. I mean, live with whoever you want and do whatever but being married? Whatever.

I guess to me though it does make a little sense in terms of sheer procreation. If marriage is intended to benifit those who procreate, why extend that to people who cannot (at least naturally) procreate? Eh, just playing devil's advocate. I think though that you shoudl marry whoever you want but the goverment should only recognize couples with kids as married for the purposes of the tax shelter it creates or whatever.

Originally posted by one_raven

Building a bridge to social acceptance of homosexual couples?

Hehe, that's gay! (teasing, sorry) What? Okay whatever. I don't see that as happening. It would force the issue to be more volatile though, which would be something I guess.

Originally posted by one_raven

Since homosexuals are the exception rather than the rule, how about offering a reason that the SHOUDLN'T be afforded the same rights and opportunities if that is what they want?

Okay, I think I already did. Note, I don't think straight people should get it either. Actually like I said.. anyone can get married to anyone in any sized group for all I care, but the only ones to be recognized by the government.. blah blah blah.

Okay I'm tired of listening to me. 'night.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
None. I let everyone be heard. Plus Im only the mod of scifi. The worst thing you could do there is insult farscape.

MAN I must be completely out of it. I could have sworn you were the person who used to say "NO CURSING IN MY FORUM, PERIOD"? Am I that out of it to have gotten that wrong? I'm almost SURE it was you? Man. Maybe I'll have to start a thread asking "what's wrong with me?". Argh.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by one_raven
Nope.
That would be pretty cool though.
I am a man living with my girlfriend.
People often think my screen name is feminine.
Plus maybe I have stated that my girlfriend is bisexual.
Those things all put together...
It is understandable.
:m:

FUCK dude. Pardon then. Man where the hell did I get that? Argh. Well, obviously - my bad. I'll fuck right off!

 

[Mystech]

Originally posted by wesmorris
Oh PLEASE! If guy acts feminine he's gonna get treated that way.

You assume that all homosexuals act feminine. What about those who don't?

Originally posted by wesmorris
NEVER STAY WHERE YOU ARE NOT APPRECIATED.

Why should I have to change if you have a problem? You can take your problem and shove it.

Originally posted by wesmorris
If you weren't so fucking self-involved with your goddamn gayness you might see that. YOU are the one who is different, therefore you end up in the position of having to make people comfortable with you. That's just the way it IS.. (for ANYTHING that makes you different)

That's funny, because from my point of view you are the one who is different. Interestnig how it works both ways, don't you think? As for being "So fucking self involved with your goddamn gayness" would I really have to be if others weren't trying to make a problem of it? You're blaming the victim, not the aggresor.

Originally posted by wesmorris
I'm just saying I'd hate to see you live your life dissapointed by the fact that a bunch of people don't understand you.. because goddamnit EVERYONE has that problem in some way or another. YOU PEOPLE are freaking BRIGHT so you have no excuse for not overcoming this crap.

So, if something is broken, then don't fix it? I'm sorry but that doesn't quite add up.

 

[Mystech]

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
Oh okay. But you reserve the right to say fag, gay, and queer. You also reserve the right to make me keep my own damn opinions to myself and not let me debate the issue period. I see how that's fair. Not.

I didn't say you don't have a right to your opinions, nor did I say that you didn't have a right to express them, in fact I remember making statements exactly to the contrary, look back a little.

As for those terms you named, Yeah, how about you shy away from 'em if you can't use 'em right. Kind of like Nigger, hows about some people just don't use certain words in polite company, too many negative connotations attached.

 

[Mystech]

Originally posted by wesmorris

So there, I think NOBODY except couples with children should be allowed to marry. Why are you entitled? Join my fight to expose and abolish pre-offspring marriage as a sham!

Well in this case, society is against you Marriage is seen as an institution which should be in place BEFORE children are bought into the picture.

Under your plan a homosexual couple could still be married, but they'd have to adopt first, of course it's much easier for them to acctualy get a kid if they are already married, that adds extra points on the score card or whatever.

I should be allowed to marry because everyone else is, and there are no direct grounds which can logicaly deny me that right. I should be allowed to marry because without people like you standing in my way I'd have the right by default

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by wesmorris
Okay, I think I already did. Note, I don't think straight people should get it either. Actually like I said.. anyone can get married to anyone in any sized group for all I care, but the only ones to be recognized by the government.. blah blah blah.

You are avoiding the question.

Right now.
Today.
Heterosexuals are allowed to marry and that marriage is accepted and respected by the laws of the US.

Considering that Heteros are allowed to marry, should homos be given that same opportunity?

You know damn well that no one will ever get behind making marriage only legal to couples with children.
Stop avoiding, please and answer.

Do you think that homosexuals specifically should not be allowed to marry given that heterosexuals ARE and that is not changing?

 

[Tiassa]

Paranoid

Look, you've all turned this into words. This was never really about words. This was about me being censored. Im not allowed to state my opinion on any gay matters. Gay people however, are allowed to. And if I agree with them then Im allowed to state that opinion. Im just not allowed to disagree with them.

I think you're paranoid:

"Hey. That's gay."
"We can have a gay ol' time."
"That's freakin gay man."
"Homosexuals are gay."

With the exception of a "gay ol' time", which phrase is a slightly different consideration, the phrases cast the word "gay" negatively. This is why such expression is commonly forbidden in the workplace. As to a gay ol' time ... well, the old word is gone it seems. Languages change. Cultures change. Gays have become the niggers of society, so to speak, and woman is the nigger of the world according to John Lennon.

1. No more cussing.
2. No more saying "gay".
3. No more sex or drug related discussions.

Well, conditions 1 and 3 are common in the workplace, and condition 2 reflects the notion that the old word is gone, replaced by a politically-charged word that people tend to use as a curse.

asked my supervisor if I could talk about politics. Sure she said. Of course I could. So Im in the break room and I start talking about Trent Lott and Senator Santrum. Just to piss the people off at the next table in the break room (Because it was someone from another belt, not from mine.) I said that Santrum was right. Gay marriages should not be allowed.

You said it yourself.

I then get approached by my full time supervisor (Not my supervisor, THE supervisor. She can fire me). She said that I was way out of line. I told her that I was merely stating an opinion and told her that it was my belief that homosexuality is wrong and immoral. Just to piss off the people around me I through in a bunch of Jesus crap.

I was told that Im not allowed to state opinions like that. I then told her that that gay guy over there told me all sorts of stuff about gay marriages and how they should be legal and such.

Don't set out "to piss people off". Sorry, but that's a no-brainer.

You said it yourself: Just to piss people off ....

So it came down to this:

It's okay for that gay guy to debate gay politics. But Im not allowed to. I tried to point this out to the full time supervisor, she didn't get it.

Exclusionary talk of any kind is not appropriate in the workplace. "Gay politics"? The desire of any one person to be accepted and included in society is fairly inherent. The desire of one person to exclude another, as inherent as it may seem, is also disruptive.

Who else would you walk up to at your work place and casually inform that they don't deserve their civil rights?

Is it okay for me to debate gay politics without being gay? Or is that taboo? Im not allowed to talk about gays because Im not gay. Riiight. But those gay guys can talk about straight people and gay politics. It really doesn't make any sense.

It would be just as inappropriate for the fag over there to point out that heterosexuals ought to be prohibited from being parents on the grounds that 100% of serial killers had parents who engaged in heterosexuality at some point.

It's tavern-talk at best.

You're making it issue-specific, when the important thing is effect. The best you can hope to achieve is the elimination of political discussions in the workplace, which is probably for the best.

But hey: stop a fag from talking about family issues, and people might have to take down their pictures of their kids. Do you really want your co-workers knowing it was your complaining that brought it about?

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[one_raven]

Re: Paranoid

Originally posted by tiassa
Who else would you walk up to at your work place and casually inform that they don't deserve their civil rights?

Very valid point!

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Mystech
You assume that all homosexuals act feminine. What about those who don't?

If you'll reread any of my text you'll find I've made no such assumption. I can see how you might assume as such, but you're wrong. I don't think gay men who are not feminine are any "less of a man" than straight men. See what I mean?

Originally posted by Mystech

Why should I have to change if you have a problem? You can take your problem and shove it.

What problem is it that you think that I have?

Originally posted by Mystech

That's funny, because from my point of view you are the one who is different. Interestnig how it works both ways, don't you think?

You act like I'm a fucking child who hasn't thought of all that stuff. DUDE, please account for the fact that I'm not an idiot and I'm trying to help. Fact remains that from the perspective of the average person you are different. Take a little responsibility.

Originally posted by Mystech

As for being "So fucking self involved with your goddamn gayness" would I really have to be if others weren't trying to make a problem of it? You're blaming the victim, not the aggresor.

No asshole, I'm telling you that as long as you see your sorry ass as a fucking victim, that's what you'll be.

Originally posted by Mystech

So, if something is broken, then don't fix it? I'm sorry but that doesn't quite add up.

What exactly is broken? You think because you expect people to be senstive to your plight and they are NOT, something is broken? There's your problem, shitty attitude. You're using your gayness as an excuse to be a whining little bitch.

What I'm telling you is that (and it's funny because I'm not your problem, regardless of what you think) society is the way that it is. Your expectations thereof count for only that. Idealistic expectations of people will get you a load of dissapointment. Understand and relate to (all) people and you'll become part of the solution.