I believe I have disproven Atheism. Tell me, do you see any flaws?

[scorpius]

while i agree that the universe can be explained without god there are things that defy explaination and proof thereof.
1. life itself. although life can be explained it has never been proved that it occured as explained.

maybe this will help
www.talkorigins.org

3. the sense of right and wrong cannot be explained with current understanding of the animal world.

try
www.atheists.org/Atheism/ethics.html

 

[Crunchy Cat]

In a stable reality such as ours, the law of cause and effect governs much of what happens.

It's a vast overimplification of what we do know and more importantly what we don't know.

Facts such as time flowing forwards...

Whoa there, what evidence do you have that the concept of direction is evem applicable to time?

I, however, believe I have done just that.

That's a problem. As long as you 'believe' you're risking rationality.

This is my new disproof of atheism.

Much as you can't disprove a negative in claims of existence, you can't disprove a position based on absence of evidence.

First, I must establish that nothing can just pop out of nowhere, lest this reality be unstable (a term I use to describe realities in which THERE IS NO 'cause and effect').

Sure, go ahead and establish it. It will require knowledge of how to resolve the existence of virtual particles. I am not sure that knowledge exists, but I would be fascinated to see it if you do.

Contrary to the popular atheistic belief that every particle of matter, energy, and other whatnot in the universe had always been there (this theory is present in all of the atheistic start-of-the-universe theories that I have heard of, for without it, those theories would essentially assume that the universe came from nothing,...

Interesting. My guess is that you're misinterpreting scientific theory communicated by atheists... unless this is an oversimplfication of what you mean (in which case I would ask for clarification). Consequently, at present there is no evidence that such a thing called 'nothing' objectively exists.

...which I had already established not to be the case),...

Saying you've established something vs. actually doing so are two different things. Presently only the former is true.

...such would mean that the matter would have an infinite past. An infinite past inside the control of time is impossible if time does not (literally) flow backwards, which we all know it does not, for if it did, our perception of reality would flow backwards and cease to exist once the memories in our experiences are passed by.

Couldn't the existence of matter also be a temporary result of an 'infinite past'? Also, you are declaring time to be applicable to the concept of direction. You don't know this.

Now we've established that time does not flow backwards, and infinite pasts can only exist if it did.

No such things have been established.

However, there is one exception to this rule. Let's assume that there was something that existed OUTSIDE of time. Outside of time, there is NO change, and when outside of time, you are in a state of constant being, where you are simultaneously thinking, doing, consuming, etc. whatever you would have done sequentially inside of time,...

It's kind of funny you mention this. One theory of time holds that all that exists are states of reality all at once. The difference in states is normalized by some formula and that produces relationships between the states where for example the matter of a person's brain is different between an arbitrary number of states and that produces an illusion of transition. In this model, you would be the sum of all the states you exist in and would be experiencing the moment of each of those states all at the same time. It's just one of many theories however. Nobody on earth (including you) knows what time really is.

...and to add to that, you are immortal, therefore adding to what you are constantly doing outside of time.

Without time there is no change. Without change you're not doing anything.

Since you are now knowing all that you will ever know, you are, at this point, potentially omnipotent.

Huh?

But let's not get too distracted by what it's like outside of time.

I am not distracted by something that neither you or I know is even remotely a possibility.

Only when something exists outside of time can it exist forever, for in a realm with no change, if it exists at all, it existed forever.

The concept of forever requires time.

Anther way to put it is "If it is, it always was, and always will be" outside of time. This being that exists outside of time must be the omnipotent being that is depicted in monotheistic religions, and possibly several other religions.

The concept of was and will require time. What life form exists outside of time? Can you show him to me?

If you see any flaws with this, please tell me, and I will see if the flaw is true, and post a reply accordingly.

I see flaws. They are listed above.

 

[(Q)]

if you are outside of time, if you exist, you always have existed, and always will, for outside of time, THERE IS NO CHANGE.

Again, this is a flaw, time is not a quantity, therefore your statement makes no sense.

This would require time to literally flow backwards.

Another flaw, time does not 'flow.'

 

[TREELAW45]

In a dream when I was younger I was captured by satin and the chinese army. To show me his power He show me time in fast foword. I saw the city of East Providence RI go from a swamp to the city as it is now. It took me months to figure it out. There was a buzzing and flashing. Sound at high speed and day and night. Things like trees grew and died rappidly along with the banches rising in the summer and drooping leafless banches drooping in the winter. Everthing of the land scape reaching up for summer and turning green drooping or disappearing and turning brown. I was on a clif with a porch and Cinese soidiers were sitting with guns and laughing at me along with satin. Ther was an out cropping of rock the size of a large house and it was slowly crumbling little rocks shedding off rappidly. Accross the river ships started to apair and disappear rapidly, from wooden ships to steel tankers. And the city grew from shacks to sky scrapers. all at the same time and satin said see my power. Every thing was buzzing and flashing and changing.

Then I woke up. Did this happen or did I imagine or dream this? I don;t know? Do leafless branches droop in the winter? I don't no. Why doesn't God speak to us, passify the earth? Or is god inside us, in our DNA, instructions in our concions. Maybe so But I,m waiting to here from him.

Maybe an alien race took pictures and are long lived and set time lapsed brain waves to my mind. Maybe I'm still dreaming and haven't woken up, it's complicated with no real answers.

 

[Cris]

Rokkon,

I did not say that cause would follow effect in the past, although I do understand why you would think that I did.

I didn’t think that you did and neither did I say that, in fact you were insisting that effects will follow cause, and which I agree.

The point is that in no way can the universe have an infinite past if time does not flow backwards. This is because mathematically, infinite is essentially never ending.

That is a non sequitur – your two statements appear unconnected and unrelated. You appear to have created a concept of time for yourself that is not correct, and from that error you are inventing nonsense.

Time is simply a label we give to a property of existence, its necessary change of state.

You also seem to be considering time as something relative to now, i.e. that there is a future and a past, and that idea has seriously screwed up your thinking. Try considering “now” as an arbitrary point on a conceptual timeline that has no beginning and no end. Every point in the past was at that point a “now”, with every event being consistent with cause and effect. You can keep resetting that point as far back you wish and everything will remain perfectly consistent with cause and effect.

Therefore, we could go as far back as we wanted, and we would never reach any dead end.

Yes very good, that is correct.

With this in place, the universe would have to have a past that keeps generating itself in order to have a cause for the effect. This would require time to literally flow backwards.

No this is nonsense. You need to seriously re-think this. The events in the past have simply come and gone, there was simply no beginning to them.

 

[TheVisitor]

Clearly all those activities would be impossible since they all require time to occur. If one is outside of time then one could be said to not exist. Since even the mere essence of existence requires a change of state, i.e. time.

Outside of time is exactly how it works.
No mother, no father, no beginning of days or end of life.
Beyond the "curtain" of time.

 

[Jadebrain_Prime]

Scorpius, you must back up what you say. I'd wager that even those who are going against me here would agree that I have backed up what I say more than you have. As for calling God, HE (not she) doesn't seem to want to show up. Maybe it is because that would be so much proof of his existence that it would make pointless these tests of our faith in him that he has given us. If it were made too obvious, then all of these facts that we know of that contradict God's existence, which I believe are merely tests of our faith, would be meaningless. Yes, I do realise that if I am right, I am helping you 'cheat' on this test, but the guilt of the results of failing this test falling upon others would be terrible on my conscience.

 

[Cris]

Treelaw45,

I think you just described the effects from the Hollywood movie "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells.

 

[Cris]

TheVisitor,

Outside of time is exactly how it works.
No mother, no father, no beginning of days or end of life.
Beyond the "curtain" of time.

Are you therefore agreeing with me that anything outside of time cannot exist? Since without the passage of time nothing can change and nothing can be done and nothing can exist.

 

[Cris]

Rokkon,

I'd wager that even those who are going against me here would agree that I have backed up what I say more than you have.

Dream on kiddo - you haven't come close to supporting anything yet.

 

[leopold]

maybe this will help
www.talkorigins.org

in order for me to be convinced i must see the living organisms that were created in the lab under the conditions that existed on the primordal earth.
to my knowledge none has ever been produced.

edit
what really kills me about this debate is how willingly people are to accept things that haven't been proven be it god or abiogenesis.

 

[(Q)]

I'd wager that even those who are going against me here would agree that I have backed up what I say more than you have.

You've done no such thing, as you are quite confused about the subject matter.

 

[TREELAW45]

Treelaw45,

I think you just described the effects from the Hollywood movie "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells.

I'll have to see the movie was it in color mine was?

 

[spidergoat]

Please let me illustrate a flaw.

To Spidergoat: I never did say that God just popped out of nowhere. In fact, what I did say was that God, or whatever other supreme being(s) that would get more believers should this theory become recognized as THE disproof of atheism (not likely, with these admirably determined people going against me), exist outside of time, where if it is, it always was, and always will be. In other words, if you are outside of time, if you exist, you always have existed, and always will, for outside of time, THERE IS NO CHANGE.

If by your reasoning, God can exist outside of time, then so can another force that isn't a God or a being of any kind.

 

[TREELAW45]

Please let me illustrate a flaw.

If by your reasoning, God can exist outside of time, then so can another force that isn't a God or a being of any kind.

Read my tread about a dream I had almost thirty years ago. What's even stranger was about ten years later while hiking with my boy's we went up the tracks and climbed a large rock on the water in front of a cliff and realized it was the crumbling rock in front of the cliff. and the city was across the water I freaked. I made my boys lie down and I felt I was going to fall off the earth. I wasn't able to get up for about 15 minutes. I was awake for this. And it wasn't God in my dream it was satin. Maybe there are beings who control time or can see backwards and maybe forwards. But I think there would be many paths forward and only one backwards and backwards to then wqas all I had seen.

 

[Cris]

Leopold,

while i agree that the universe can be explained without god there are things that defy explaination and proof thereof.

No, that is incorrect. All the essential issues of religions that are claimed as supernatural have explanations based on natural phenomena that are infinitely more credible. Proofs are a different matter that shouldn’t concern us here since religious claims certainly have no proofs.

1. life itself. although life can be explained it has never been proved that it occured as explained.

Evolution is fairly clear to everyone by now, simply project the dots back in time for the early forms of life to appear. A very simple natural explanation. But the religious alternative is that a vast super being capable of creating universes and vast supernatural realms populated by invisible spirits, etc,. etc. Kinda defies credibility, wouldn’t you agree?

2. conciousness has never been explained.

Sure it has. It’s an emergent property of neural functions. Simply natural again.

3. the sense of right and wrong cannot be explained with current understanding of the animal world.

Of course it can and very simply. Survival and intelligence with the ability to reason. There is absolutely nothing complicated here.

it's also a fact that all myths have an element of truth in them.

LOL, dream on. While many fiction stories can have a factual basis the actual details are entire fiction.

 

[spidergoat]

That's an interesting story, TREELAW45, but I fail to see how it relates to this conversation. Individuals experience all sorts of weird things, myself included.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

In a dream when I was younger...

Maybe an alien race took pictures and are long lived and set time lapsed brain waves to my mind. Maybe I'm still dreaming and haven't woken up, it's complicated with no real answers.

It was a dream. Dreams are hallucinations.

 

[TREELAW45]

That's an interesting story, TREELAW45, but I fail to see how it relates to this conversation. Individuals experience all sorts of weird things, myself included.

I guess the point is are there beings who have so control over time or live very long in time so they would appear to be a god or demon. If a being could show you time(past to present) would you accept it as a god? would you give up your and your childrens lives or freedom. Maybe they could make us slaves, or eat us. What would primative humans think of us today?

 

[TREELAW45]

It was a dream. Dreams are hallucinations.

When I found the location of the dream, and it matched perfectly I was wide awake. And feeling like I would fall off the earth, total loss of up and down or the effects of gravity. I felt like I had to hold on to the rock or I would fall away. I would like to understand what happen to me?