Hypocritical Religion - Abortion and War

Some people think its wrong to have an abortion, others just want to control what another does with their body and life. Not that they really care about 'the innocent'.

Or maybe they are just jealous and want "her" to follow the rules because they want to do all sorts of "bad things" that they can't give themselves permission to do.

This whole "men want to control women's bodies" saying seems to simplistic except in the case of a jealous man and his wife or girlfriend. I think the idea of abortion being about "men wanting to control women's bodies" just to control women's bodies was just a a way of the "pro choice movement" presenting the anti-choice movement in it's worst possible light.

Sure the Christian right (and the Islamic right) would like to ban premarital sex and they have contempt for women who get unwanted pregnancies but I don't think they are against abortion for the sake of discouraging premarital sex.

I think they just want to save babies and or force obedience to the law as they think it has been given by god and scripture which they think outranks the laws of nations.
 
Not one culture or community I've ever met or heard of.

Find me a cemetery or funeral tradition - even a hospital routine involving the same bureaucratic procedures as a death, such as a doctor's determination of time of death in the little body when expelled alive - for miscarriages, for example. Or a murder/manslaughter charge, legal determination of inheritance, anything like that, involving a first trimester miscarriage. Or a census that includes pregnancies. Or a child mortality rate that includes miscarriages. Any recognition whatsoever of the presence of a dead human being's body, including a common practice of fishing a miscarriage out of the toilet, would do, if it dated back to before the politicized abortion argument in a Western country.

Not even the obvious lack of such ritual or common understanding is visible - the local Catholic hospitals in my town have always discarded early miscarriages with removed organs and other dead tissue, incinerated it all as biological waste, without anyone even questioning the matter. The local Catholic cemeteries have no section of little graves, for the early deaths of the innocent human beings, and no one even notices.

There is no common human belief that a three month embryo is an "innocent human life", and there has never been one.

From the first Google result for "Burial" "miscarriage" out of 92,600 results.
http://diaryofamiscarriage.blogspot.com/2007/04/proper-burial.html

Rachel,
I had a miscarriage at the beginning of my 14th week, but my bleeding was so heavy that I didn't even know that the fetus had come out (I was having labor like cramps and knew I was miscarrying, but my (now ex)husband was sleeping and I didn't want to wake him by turning on the bathroom light, so I never saw anything and only found out when I got to the hospital and saw nothing on the ultrasound monitor).

Not having been able to properly bury the baby (I never found out what it was) was the hardest thing for me and I had an imaginary ceremony (in my mind) that involved everything I would have liked to have done. I even decided where I would bury it - somewhere I don't go very often, a place where I finally let go.

I am sure there are some miscarriages buried and given tombstones in American cemeteries.
 
niraker said:
I am sure there are some miscarriages buried and given tombstones in American cemeteries.
If you can find one, first trimester, - even just one, in a country where you are claiming there are all these people who automatically think of an early embryo as an "innocent human life" - you are doing better than me, in any of the dozens of "pro-life" church cemeteries in my town.

They should be something on the order of 10% of the graves, even more in the older cemeteries.

And that's just one area of behavior - there are the hospitals, the legal systems, the medical and emergency services, the keepers of statistics, and so forth.

All of society, except for the specific anti-abortion political movement and its direct concerns, the same pattern. In that context alone, and no other, is a first trimester embryo considered an "innocent human life".

Another obvious consideration, or evidence of reality: the anti-abortion forces did not seriously object to abortions, which have always been common, until they became safe and relatively painless for the woman. As long as they were painful and dangerous for the woman, there was no crusade against them - compare the expected social reaction to the discovery of a serial child murdering organization, on even a much smaller scale.
niraker said:
I think the idea of abortion being about "men wanting to control women's bodies" just to control women's bodies was just a a way of the "pro choice movement" presenting the anti-choice movement in it's worst possible light.
Yur paraphrase misrepresents the feminist arguments. Even so, that doesn't make it an inaccurate description, one not fitting the actual behaviors visible.
 
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If anyone actually believed that, the argument might be different - but there is no way to accept that as a genuine belief. No society, no religion, no group of people, no individual even in relevant circumstances, acts as if they believed a three month embryo was an innocent human life, in any context at all except a discussion of voluntary abortion controlled by the woman.

And so the real factor involved is pretty obviously visible, and it isn't the "innocent human life" that exists in no other context.

I am an individuel and i have stated what i believe. Your statement is therefore misguided.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
adstar said:
I am an individuel and i have stated what i believe. Your statement is therefore misguided.
Talk is cheap. The pro-life crowd doesn't walk the walk, and never has.

The only question is the degree of self-deception involved.
 
Yes they died with their Parents in that occasion. But their deaths where an early mark into eternity with God for they where innocent.

As their deaths came about by the direct comment of God it was not a case of the attackers deciding to kill them against Gods will.

I cannot disagree. It was written Jesus was innocent too.

Just as you have said, "God Kills The Innocent".

We are not talking about benevolent behavior.
 
earth said:
Just as you have said, "God Kills The Innocent".
Which illuminates the import of the common prayer, in which the believer asks to become an instrument of God's will, and act according to God's plan.

Another aspect of the gulf between the societies and cultures and communities of the pro-life, and their professed beliefs: those little warnings on the backs of medicine bottles and household chemicals, attached to certain jobs and working conditions (and suppressed for others, such as shift work), published regarding fish consumption and other environmental hazards. They read "not for the pregnant" or words to that effect.

But they are for sale, for the common use of anyone with a few dollars, broadcast into the environment and advertised on TV. If they represented the same risk to actual children - if the same past events of actual miscarriage for some of these things had been past events of actual dead babies - they would be banned from general human contact. The warning would not be in fine print on the inside of the packaging.
 
You had a great post but I admit, I enjoy it when people claim to know what God wants or would not want.

What if there is a God and he actually wants us to suffer, kill, and obey like puppets? Scary thought isn't it? Hell (no pun intended), sounds a lot like the Roman and Greek gods of mythology; some were kind, some played tricks on humans etc.

So... my question is how can ANYONE, regardless of belief, know what God wants if God actually exists? Because it says so in Chapter so and so in verse whatever? What about other "Holy" books that claim the opposite? For example, in the Quran it claims the will of God desiring vengence against the nonbelievers. In the Christian Bible (NT) it says that the will of God requires compassion (for the most part). In the Bhagavad Gita (sp?) it says pretty much not to pay attention to others but to respect and let them walk their own path but to also pay constant hommage to Hindu gods/goddesses.

So who's right? Who really knows what God would want? I for one question the existance of any god. I leave the possibility open to exploration and doubt, while never fully believing that there is or is not a god until proven otherwise. BUT in the event that somehow there is a god or multiple gods, what scientific evidence do we have stating the will of god? None?

Which, as I digress, I reintroduce the original question and issue at hand: Why in many beliefs is it OK to wage war and kill other humans but not acceptable to have an abortion. Furthermore where, in ANY scripture, does it mention anything to do with abortion? I have yet to find one verse anywhere that has to to directly with abortion. Sure, some verses may state to preserve life, which is open to interpretation. But who knows if that had anything to do with abortion when written?

I get a royal kick out of those "God is Pro-Life" stickers. And this, as we see, is where the two discussions, the will of god and abortion, come together.

So who knows what God wants. Maybe god wants abortions? Maybe god doesn't? Does god even exist? To some, he/she/it does. But to those who do not believe, why must the same rules of the believers apply to non-believers. Many Christians believe that non-christians are going to hell. Good for them. But that is there beliefs, not mine. What if I was Muslim? Should I still be judged according to Christian standards? Why or why not?

If I was a woman of no religious belief and I wanted an abortion, why should I be subject to the criticism and laws of the believers?

I know I've asked many questions in this post. My attempt is not to make anyone question their beliefs, but rather to point out the loopholes, idiosyncrosies, and idiocracy of the boundries of religious belief as imposed on those of different or no belief.

It all comes from within ourselves. It doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe.
And even though the complete truth goes much further then we can imagine, I want you to think of all the life within yourself. Are you not the God of your own body?
We are all a part of a bigger body (the universe), but we are the bigger body of ourselves! Do we all take good care of ourselves?
Not all us 'Gods' are good to the life within itself.

God doesn't strike down with vengence, we strike ourselves down!

For some they need to feel an outside source giving them the strength to find their truth, and that's perfectly fine, it's just not something I fully understand. But we all have different ways of discovering.
Also with soo much that is still not understood, many need to have a supernatural force that is 'all good' so they don't fear what they don't understand. You have to realize that most people are afraid of the things they don't understand, and without a 'Good God' too many would worry about things that should not be worried about!

As for abortion, it generally does give an appearance of 'lack of respect' for that life - although I feel the girl's life should also be respected, so I can see both sides during extreme circumstances, but generally I'd agree, ending a universe of life in the womb before it even comes together as one, well damn, how'd you feel if something destroyed our entire universe right now?

As for war, thats just people not respecting others when they take what they want or feel threatened.

If people knew how to respect others, not jugde, and how to love unconditionally - well war would be obsolete, and so would a large portion of the extreme circumstances that make some abortions grey to me - so there wouldn't be a need for soo many abortions neither!

Is it that hard to respect, not jugde, and love without conditions?
Seems like the world could be alot better place if everyone knew how to follow those simple 3 things.
 
...It all comes from within ourselves. It doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe.
And even though the complete truth goes much further then we can imagine, I want you to think of all the life within yourself. Are you not the God of your own body?

In the assumption that the definition of God includes being all-powerful, I'm actually going to say no, not completely. We can not directly and completely control much of which goes on with our bodies. When we get cancer, we cannot say, "Ok, I don't want this", and then poof, it's gone. We can, however, control certain conditions regarding our bodies such as nutritional intake, location, etc.

God doesn't strike down with vengence, we strike ourselves down!

Again, there are things that we cannot control.

You have to realize that most people are afraid of the things they don't understand, and without a 'Good God' too many would worry about things that should not be worried about!

But that is a problem in my eyes. It's as if people think morality cannot exist without a leading force such as religion or an idea of an existing God.

As for abortion, it generally does give an appearance of 'lack of respect' for that life - although I feel the girl's life should also be respected, so I can see both sides during extreme circumstances, but generally I'd agree, ending a universe of life in the womb before it even comes together as one, well damn, how'd you feel if something destroyed our entire universe right now?

To me it's the same as stepping on an ant. Sometimes it's needed for our own benefit and security.

As for war, thats just people not respecting others when they take what they want or feel threatened.

Not always. There have been many wars that we in America have been involved with that included fighting countries that were actually of no threat to us. Vietnam, Kosovo, Bosnia and Korea come to mind first. We went to liberate, no take.

If people knew how to respect others, not jugde, and how to love unconditionally - well war would be obsolete, and so would a large portion of the extreme circumstances that make some abortions grey to me - so there wouldn't be a need for soo many abortions neither!

Again, I'm not sure I agree. There are two sides of the spectrum when it comes to respect and abortions. You can respect the mothers right to choose for herself, or you can respect the fetus' right to live.

Is it that hard to respect, not jugde, and love without conditions?
Seems like the world could be alot better place if everyone knew how to follow those simple 3 things.

That I do agree with. :D
 
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God doesn't strike down with vengence, we strike ourselves down!


Its a good thing we don't have to take your word for it. I guess its okay to lie on behalf of one's God.

Deuteronomy 32:35
'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near,And the impending things are hastening upon them.'
Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
 
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In the assumption that the definition of God includes being all-powerful, I'm actually going to say no, not completely. We can not directly and completely control much of which goes on with our bodies. When we get cancer, we cannot say, "Ok, I don't want this", and then poof, it's gone. We can, however, control certain conditions regarding our bodies such as nutritional intake, location, etc.


Your example is not fully explored. First off cancer is caused by something we have done to ourselves or from something in our environment. So yes we are in control of ourselves, but our environmental conditions contribute significantly, especially with health issues, and we don't control the environment (although collectively we could improve our environment). But their are too many cancer causing things in this world to avoid all possible cancer causing agents, so I don't worry about it. Afterall ignorance is bliss, and I'm still quite ignorant when it comes to certain things I don't have enough available information about. ;)

Again, there are things that we cannot control.

We still control our own actions.

But that is a problem in my eyes. It's as if people think morality cannot exist without a leading force such as religion or an idea of an existing God.


Not really, most people are beginning to understand that religions are just spiritual guidance for something we aren't meant to fully understand. Most religious minds I've spoken too agree that man wrote the books, not God. Most take the messages symbolically not litterally. And many people are becoming more and more interested in learning multiple religions rather then believing something litterallly. But even those that feel the need to believe in something bigger then I understand, most still know the power comes from within, they just believe God is a part of us all, so it's the God within that helps guide. You can guide yourself - we all need to lead at some point. ;)

To me it's the same as stepping on an ant. Sometimes it's needed for our own benefit and security.

At least the ant lived. Destroying a universe of life before it becomes whole seems regretful to me, even if that universe is microscopic!
And how is abortion every needed for security or for our own benefit?
Taking responsibility for our actions to me means if you're gonna have consentual sex and the girl gets knocked up - you should start preparing for a child. If the sex is not consentual, or if medical health issues arise for the mother, I'm still okay with abortion sometimes.

Not always. There have been many wars that we in America have been involved with that included fighting countries that were actually of no threat to us. Vietnam, Kosovo, Bosnia and Korea come to mind first. We went to liberate, no take.

Are you kidding??
Liberate who? And based on what, that Democracy is perfect? - LMAO, Democracy has many flaws too! ;).
Do you think the people who lived in those places were happy with the way America 'Liberated'?
No Take, what about all the resources America robs 3rd world countries of everytime they go somewhere to 'Liberate'!!!
War always involves greed and/or perceived threats - ussually both.

Again, I'm not sure I agree. There are two sides of the spectrum when it comes to respect and abortions. You can respect the mothers right to choose for herself, or you can respect the fetus' right to live.

If the mother is pregnant because of consentual relations, and if their are not medical circumstances, then I'd say the mother had the right to choose when she had sex. All life has a right to live.

As for this from Earth:
Its a good thing we don't have to take your word for it. I guess its okay to lie on behalf of one's God.

Number 1, I'm not sure what I believe, when it comes to things unknown, so quoting scripture and saying I'm lying on 'Gods' behalf is kinda funny. I see scriptures as metephores, not to be taken literally but to be guidance for those that choose that path, but their are many ways and I myself am not religious, I just don't judge it the same as I use to when I use to be against it. I see it serves good purposes for some, but can be misused to control much like patriotic pride can be misused, but I still love being Canadian especially during winter olympic hockey time!

Secondly, I don't agree that we should be 'striking ourselves down' it's just pretty damn obvious thats what we do!

And Third, I do think we all have to take responsibilitiy for our own actions, so if we don't take responsibility while we are here, then yeah sure there could be something I don't understand that makes us take responsibility for our actions, but as long as I respect all life and my love comes unconditionally without judgement, I am not worried about facing anything in my afterlife - not even a 'vengful God' can scare me, I am worry free, and I try to live as best I can, so their is nothing to worry about.
 
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Your example is not fully explored. First off cancer is caused by something we have done to ourselves or from something in our environment.

Not always

We still control our own actions.

To an extend. We can control our conscious actions.

And how is abortion every needed for security or for our own benefit?
Taking responsibility for our actions to me means if you're gonna have consentual sex and the girl gets knocked up - you should start preparing for a child. If the sex is not consentual, or if medical health issues arise for the mother, I'm still okay with abortion sometimes.

I'm for abortion from a different standpoint than most. Lets see. We can let the 16 year old, drug addicted mother have a child and raise it with little to no assistance in a diseased, poverty ridden, high crime neighborhood which greatly increases the chance of that kid becoming a criminal or druggie as well. OR We can save our welfare-bound tax dollars and save lives (including the kids later). In a way its a method of crime prevention I guess you could say.

I honestly think ANYONE having a kid should be investigated. But thats just me. Some people just don't deserve to have a child.

Are you kidding??
Liberate who? And based on what, that Democracy is perfect? - LMAO, Democracy has many flaws too! ;).
Do you think the people who lived in those places were happy with the way America 'Liberated'?
No Take, what about all the resources America robs 3rd world countries of everytime they go somewhere to 'Liberate'!!!
War always involves greed and/or perceived threats - ussually both.

I never said I agree with our governments actions.
 
Or maybe they are just jealous and want "her" to follow the rules because they want to do all sorts of "bad things" that they can't give themselves permission to do.

This whole "men want to control women's bodies" saying seems to simplistic except in the case of a jealous man and his wife or girlfriend. I think the idea of abortion being about "men wanting to control women's bodies" just to control women's bodies was just a a way of the "pro choice movement" presenting the anti-choice movement in it's worst possible light.

Sure the Christian right (and the Islamic right) would like to ban premarital sex and they have contempt for women who get unwanted pregnancies but I don't think they are against abortion for the sake of discouraging premarital sex.

I think they just want to save babies and or force obedience to the law as they think it has been given by god and scripture which they think outranks the laws of nations.

I never said anything about men. If a woman believes it is wrong to abort a baby then it is her choice to keep it, no one forces anyone to have an abortion. The whole pro-life movement is based on taking away the right of another's right to abort a fetus. I don't care if the person is male or female they don't have the right to force an unwanted pregnancy on any woman who chooses to do otherwise.
 
Could we speed up this second coming a bit to clear out some of the worst of the riffraff?

Does JC even have his clothes on?

Kids! Never can get them out the door on time.
 
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iceaura said:
There is no common human belief that a three month embryo is an "innocent human life", and there has never been one.

Based on what? Your experience with pregnancy? Ask a woman who has just discovered she is pregnant if she does not view her pregnancy as carrying a child.

Maybe there are women who are desensitised to the experience of pregnancy and think a D&C is nothing more than a mild inconvenience.

But I'd be surprised if they were a majority.
 
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