Hypocritical Religion - Abortion and War

[Pipes75]

Will someone please explain to me why so many of the religious are against abortion but yet are pro-war. It's seems to me to be a bit hypocritical.

Why is abortion always wrong?

Why is war always right?

Why do most religious support the death penalty?


Where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about abortions???? If anything, the Bible is FOR killing children.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.


Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


And please spare me of the "But that was the Old Testament" load. It's still your bible. If the Old Testament is invalid, then it would have been removed by now.

I can explain some of it, but I don't agree with the excuses .

Abortion is frowned upon because metephorically, each new life is a entire universe of life.
Women also being the mothers of life - some find it unconcievable that the mother of life would deny life.

War is an unfortunate reality when people take different paths and then focus on the journey rather then the answer. The journeys contradict eachother, both parties know the truth, conflict arises because of misinterpretations. Control factors ussually play a significant role as well.
Men also being the protectors of life - some feel to protect 'their own' they need to attack others that are perceived as a threat.

I love all life, so in general I am against abortion, but the girls individual life is equally important, so I still find abortion a very grey subject - 2 sides to everything.

War is never 'right' in my eyes. When we have to resort to violence, we have already lost.
All we need is Love and we could feel the highs and the lows, but people fear what they don't understand, and people in fear are the worst kind of people to be in control! As long as we judge others and we continue to live in fear we will have violence. An unfortunate reality that I wish I could change, but I don't know how, so I don't let it bother me too much.

But there is 2 sides to everything - War does allow many to crash together, and the victims generally become stronger from it if they survive the horrors. I'm against all violence, but I can only control my own actions.
Another problem that can lead to war is when the most important thing to a leader is his nation, and he doesn't respect other people on his path to make his nation the greatest! I don't know scripture enough to give a biblical refrence to this kind of behaviour (although I'm sure there is some ) But as a historical reference, guys like Hitler had this problem, and many still don't respect all life.

 

[Doreen]

Only in defense. I don't believe in surrendering to injustice. I'm a fighter.

I guess SAM the question would be, would you be willing to defend yourself, up to and including bombs and missiles that would likely, sooner or later, kill foetuses (and their mothers)? Do you feel a country, group or people are immoral if they do not avoid this kind of collateral damage at all costs?

One can I think fight a losing battle where one avoids this. But to have any chance of defense against most nations and groups today one will likely perform extreme abortions, if only on one's own people in friendly fire.

In the Palestinian/Israeli struggle both sides are clearly willing to kill foetuses and this position is not consistant with anti-abortion, whatever the relevent religious texts state on these matters. In the days of swords and arrows, you could wage war with a much better chance of not causing abortions, not that anyone had clean records anyway. but one could fight and fight pretty fiercely without causing abortions.

No with advances in technology, it is hard to avoid.

Once the door is opened by end justifying the means, in this case abortions being a portion of the means of modern warfare, it opens the door for other ends justifying means.

 

[Adstar]

Will someone please explain to me why so many of the religious are against abortion but yet are pro-war. It's seems to me to be a bit hypocritical.

I am against abortion and am against war.

I guess it comes down to personal opinion overcoming their loyalty to the teachings of their God.

Same question can be put to anyone, there are atheists who are against war but are for abortion. I guess by your standard they are also just as hypocritical?

Why is abortion always wrong?

Abortion is unjustifiable taking of innocent human life.

Why is war always right?

Well as a Christian i believe war is only ever justifiable when God orders it directly. As Gods last word on it was from Jesus and that was to take no part in war. Until the time comes when God delvers a change in that policy i as a Christian will follow the current policy.

Why do most religious support the death penalty?

Most people want revenge for injustices. As a Christian i leave such decisions up to the authorities of the day.

Where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about abortions???? If anything, the Bible is FOR killing children.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

This scripture is not about an unborn innocent is it? This person is guilty of an offence and therefore is not innocent.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Once again. This is not about unborn Children is it.

And please spare me of the "But that was the Old Testament" load. It's still your bible. If the Old Testament is invalid, then it would have been removed by now.

No intention of using the "But that was the Old Testament" I don't need to on this occasion because none of the scriptures you quote detail a law where one was required to kill an innocent unborn.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Thoreau]

I am against abortion and am against war.

I guess it comes down to personal opinion overcoming their loyalty to the teachings of their God.

Same question can be put to anyone, there are atheists who are against war but are for abortion. I guess by your standard they are also just as hypocritical?

Yes, they are just as hypocritical. Doesn't matter what religion, race, nationality, background. I

Abortion is unjustifiable taking of innocent human life.

But what if it saves a life, such as the mothers?

Well as a Christian i believe war is only ever justifiable when God orders it directly. As Gods last word on it was from Jesus and that was to take no part in war. Until the time comes when God delvers a change in that policy i as a Christian will follow the current policy.

And how would God ever directly order a war? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can say that God wants one thing or another. They can write it down, speak it or whatever. So how do you know if its true or not. How do you know it's not just a crazy war hungry schizo?

 

[Adstar]

Abortion is unjustifiable taking of innocent human life

But what if it saves a life, such as the mothers?

Well from what i have read from scriptures it is considered a high act of love to willingly give up ones own life for another. But the key there is one must willingly give it up. No such consent can ever be obtained from an unborn child.

And how would God ever directly order a war? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can say that God wants one thing or another. They can write it down, speak it or whatever. So how do you know if its true or not. How do you know it's not just a crazy war hungry schizo?

Well from prophecy the next war that Christians could possibly have anything to do with will be the battle of Armageddon and that happens as they return with Jesus to earth at His second coming. But even then the description of the battle from scripture reveals that God will cause delusions in the ranks of the anti-christ's great army that will cause them to turn their weapons onto each other, the army of the anti-christ will kill itself.

So if someone claiming to be a "Prophet of God" came and told me that God wanted me to fight in a war i would not believe them. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. So anyone coming to me with a message in conflict with the Bible i would see as a liar.


Of course if i am in my resurrected eternal form and am with Jesus then any Order He gives me i will be obeying without question.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Pipes75]

Of course if i am in my resurrected eternal form and am with Jesus then any Order He gives me i will be obeying without question.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I don't like the way you finished 'obeying without question'????

If God is real, all he would want from you is to love life unconditionally, and respect others without judgement.

And that is one of the problems some have with abortion; loving life unconditionally, and respecting others without judgement might seem like abortion should always be considered wrong, however the girls life needs to be respected too, so I still see alot of grey in abortion myself but I understand why preserving all life might be important to others. But when extreme circumstances play a role like, rape and/or sexual abuse, I see grey, I don't see black and white.

But if God exists, he surely wouldn't want foot soldiers that 'obeyed orders' like good pupets!!!
Doesn't the Bible say something about being the Sheperd rather then the sheep?
I don't care who you believe to be following, I'd rather lead myself to where I need to go rather then follow, and if violence is deemed inevitable, then as far as I'm concerned we already lost.

Whether you believe in God or not doesn't change the way you can feel about yourself from the inside.
Those that do believe in God - know that he is a part of you, from within but also a part of something not worth explaining because it's much more then we can begin to understand.
Those that don't believe in God, that's fine, believe in yourself, and you can find the same knowledge as long as you find your balance because it all comes from within anyway.

Problem with man is, when we want more then we can have, we fight.
If we feel threatened, we fight.
If we doen't understand something, we are afraid of it, and fear can turn into violence real quick because fear can make us angry.
When we love something with everything we got, we will do anything to keep that love strong, anything for some can include some horrific acts of violence if they feel it is necessary to protect their Love.
And until everyone learns how to respect everyone, their will always be violence, which includes wars. If we learn how to respect eachother, we could end all wars, but we are so use to passing judgement, it would be tough to overcome even if we wanted to change.

But, I got nothin but time, so I'm looking forward to brighter days, and enjoying my moments along the way.

 

[Thoreau]

If God is real, all he would want from you is to love life unconditionally, and respect others without judgement.

But if God exists, he surely wouldn't want foot soldiers that 'obeyed orders' like good pupets!!!

You had a great post but I admit, I enjoy it when people claim to know what God wants or would not want.

What if there is a God and he actually wants us to suffer, kill, and obey like puppets? Scary thought isn't it? Hell (no pun intended), sounds a lot like the Roman and Greek gods of mythology; some were kind, some played tricks on humans etc.

So... my question is how can ANYONE, regardless of belief, know what God wants if God actually exists? Because it says so in Chapter so and so in verse whatever? What about other "Holy" books that claim the opposite? For example, in the Quran it claims the will of God desiring vengence against the nonbelievers. In the Christian Bible (NT) it says that the will of God requires compassion (for the most part). In the Bhagavad Gita (sp?) it says pretty much not to pay attention to others but to respect and let them walk their own path but to also pay constant hommage to Hindu gods/goddesses.

So who's right? Who really knows what God would want? I for one question the existance of any god. I leave the possibility open to exploration and doubt, while never fully believing that there is or is not a god until proven otherwise. BUT in the event that somehow there is a god or multiple gods, what scientific evidence do we have stating the will of god? None?

Which, as I digress, I reintroduce the original question and issue at hand: Why in many beliefs is it OK to wage war and kill other humans but not acceptable to have an abortion. Furthermore where, in ANY scripture, does it mention anything to do with abortion? I have yet to find one verse anywhere that has to to directly with abortion. Sure, some verses may state to preserve life, which is open to interpretation. But who knows if that had anything to do with abortion when written?

I get a royal kick out of those "God is Pro-Life" stickers. And this, as we see, is where the two discussions, the will of god and abortion, come together.

So who knows what God wants. Maybe god wants abortions? Maybe god doesn't? Does god even exist? To some, he/she/it does. But to those who do not believe, why must the same rules of the believers apply to non-believers. Many Christians believe that non-christians are going to hell. Good for them. But that is there beliefs, not mine. What if I was Muslim? Should I still be judged according to Christian standards? Why or why not?

If I was a woman of no religious belief and I wanted an abortion, why should I be subject to the criticism and laws of the believers?

I know I've asked many questions in this post. My attempt is not to make anyone question their beliefs, but rather to point out the loopholes, idiosyncrosies, and idiocracy of the boundries of religious belief as imposed on those of different or no belief.

 

[(Q)]

If God is real, all he would want from you is to love life unconditionally, and respect others without judgement.

Agreed, so why don't we just toss out all scriptures, the bible, the quran, all of it? Then, we can pretend gods don't exist and that we came up with the same ethical behavior and simply go on with life as you've described.

 

[Thoreau]

Agreed, so why don't we just toss out all scriptures, the bible, the quran, all of it? Then, we can pretend gods don't exist and that we came up with the same ethical behavior and simply go on with life as you've described.

:cheers: Agree. Religion does not define morality.

 

[earth]

Once again. This is not about unborn Children is it.

No intention of using the "But that was the Old Testament" I don't need to on this occasion because none of the scriptures you quote detail a law where one was required to kill an innocent unborn.

Joshua 6:17
The city shall be under the ban, it and all that is in it belongs to the LORD; only Rahab the harlot and all who are with her in the house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent.


Do you understand the ban? Do you think there weren't children and pregnant women?

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar
Of course if i am in my resurrected eternal form and am with Jesus then any Order He gives me i will be obeying without question.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
”
I don't like the way you finished 'obeying without question'????

Yes i understand. having re-read my answer i see that i have been short in my answer. I should have taken more effort in giving a more detailed answer.

So the reason why i would be "Obeying without Question" would because my understanding of the situation would be complete, I would not need to ask any questions because i would know the reason why i would be doing it. I would need no faith in respect to trusting in Gods decision on carrying out that act, because i would know God completely and would understand why i was doing it.

So it would not be an act carried out without understanding.

If God is real, all he would want from you is to love life unconditionally, and respect others without judgement.

Yes and No.

Love
My God wants me to Love all even my enemies, But when one loves another they must give them the truth even if the one they love hates them and ends up rejecting them or even killing them for doing it. Sometimes loving people can get you hated.

Respect.
This has been a problem word in communication for a long time. Respect for me means bowing ones head to the other or placing someone above myself as my better. So there is only One that i respect and that is God. I do not respect any other human being. I do not respect myself. I love others and i love myself. I tolerate myself and i tolerate others. I will never be accepting to false doctrine and anything that is a lie. But i will love the one caught up in that false doctrine or a lie because they are a faulty human being like myself. And like myself they also have the opportunity to be forgiven their faults. So with that detailed reply. No. God does not want me to respect anyone but God.

Judgement.
God does not want me to Judge others. But God wants we to warn others of His judgement. It is not judgement on my part for me to point out a false doctrine or sin. But it is judgement for me to for example seek to attack or punish someone in any way because of their false doctrine or lie.

So there is Judgement as in Assessment. That i take part in every day. We all do.

And there is Judgement as in Punishment. That is what i believe i can not take any part in.

And that is one of the problems some have with abortion; loving life unconditionally, and respecting others without judgement might seem like abortion should always be considered wrong, however the girls life needs to be respected too, so I still see alot of grey in abortion myself but I understand why preserving all life might be important to others. But when extreme circumstances play a role like, rape and/or sexual abuse, I see grey, I don't see black and white.

Is the innocent Child guilty of the rape/sexual abuse that happed to bring them into existence? Does the innocent life have to face an execution for the sin of the rapist/ sexual abuser's? Is this grey to you? It is black and white to me. The emotional wounds of sexual crime can be healed over time but once an innocent is killed there is no giving back their chance at life.

But if God exists, he surely wouldn't want foot soldiers that 'obeyed orders' like good pupets!!!

I agree.

Doesn't the Bible say something about being the Sheperd rather then the sheep?

Jesus is the Shepard and the Sheep know that following their master is following the greatest wisdom there is. Some of that in beyond their understanding so often they must follow in faith/trust but no one follows God out of pure faith. Every person who follows God has some knowledge and reasons behind it.

I don't care who you believe to be following, I'd rather lead myself to where I need to go rather then follow, and if violence is deemed inevitable, then as far as I'm concerned we already lost.

I don't believe violence in necessary on my account. I believe my God strictly forbids me to take part in violence. God however has used violence as judgement and will use it again. He does not need me to carry out violence, He has that area covered.

Whether you believe in God or not doesn't change the way you can feel about yourself from the inside.
Those that do believe in God - know that he is a part of you, from within but also a part of something not worth explaining because it's much more then we can begin to understand.

Yes that in that area Faith/trust is required.

Those that don't believe in God, that's fine, believe in yourself, and you can find the same knowledge as long as you find your balance because it all comes from within anyway.

I don't believe anyone can find true peace without God.

Problem with man is, when we want more then we can have, we fight.
If we feel threatened, we fight.
If we doen't understand something, we are afraid of it, and fear can turn into violence real quick because fear can make us angry.

Yes.
That’s why scripture talks about greed and fear and love.

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

When we love something with everything we got, we will do anything to keep that love strong, anything for some can include some horrific acts of violence if they feel it is necessary to protect their Love.
And until everyone learns how to respect everyone, their will always be violence, which includes wars. If we learn how to respect eachother, we could end all wars, but we are so use to passing judgement, it would be tough to overcome even if we wanted to change.

Once again your idealistic yearnings are unobtainable in a world where people exist with the knowledge of Good and Evil. Pride and Fear and Greed lead people to turn to violence. These human traits will not be wiped away by human effort. That is why the tragedy of history is continually repeating itself and tragic life stories are repeated. Only by Gods intervention can such flaws be overcome. I live in Hope for that Day

But, I got nothin but time, so I'm looking forward to brighter days, and enjoying my moments along the way.

Well you may have time or you may be dead even before you get the chance to read this reply. Also i predict if you do have a long time to live in this world you will be seeing far darker days then you are seeing now. Only by the peace of Jesus can anyone walk through such a future with peace of mind.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Adstar]

Joshua 6:17
The city shall be under the ban, it and all that is in it belongs to the LORD; only Rahab the harlot and all who are with her in the house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent.


Do you understand the ban? Do you think there weren't children and pregnant women?

Yes they died with their Parents in that occasion. But their deaths where an early mark into eternity with God for they where innocent.

All innocents have eternity with God, they do not need the forgiveness that comes by the atonement of Jesus, because they do not have the knowledge of Good and Evil.

As their deaths came about by the direct comment of God it was not a case of the attackers deciding to kill them against Gods will. The Jews where an implement of Gods wrath. Maybe at the second coming of Jesus His true followers may again be implements of His wrath. Personally i don't think we will.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

MZ3Boy84

I think its more ironic that the religious people who do not support abortion couldn't give a rats ass about any of these children nor the parents who cannot take care of them once they are born.

To not do something because they think its personally wrong is admirable. To impose what they think is right on others is just another form of tyranny, so no I don't find it it ironic that someone who has a tyrannical view of society and women's bodies would be pro-war. As a matter of fact I see no contradiction whatsoever.

Ask any of these anti-abortion activists how many unwanted children they have adopted or how many single mothers they help guide and support and you will find the answer to almost always be nil. They're like fascists but covered in scripture.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Unborn children cannot defend themselves from suction machines that tear off their limbs?

I don't support the death penalty btw.

True. The unborn do not have rights over the living.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Despite the religion of peace.

She has never had to fight against injustice nor does she know what it means to actually physically put ones life on the line, nor has she suffered from injustice. She's more of an armchair hot air kind of fighter.

One of these :soapbox:

 

[nirakar]

Will someone please explain to me why so many of the religious are against abortion but yet are pro-war. It's seems to me to be a bit hypocritical.

Why is abortion always wrong?

Why is war always right?

Why do most religious support the death penalty?


Where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING about abortions???? If anything, the Bible is FOR killing children.

The underlying issue is the Religious Right's desire for order, clarity and intellectual simplicity.

The religious right likes men to act like men and women to act like women. They like an eye for an eye and capital punishment when it comes to how to deal with violence and murders because that is a very clear unconfusing form of social discipline.

When there is a war they like comic book like versions of the war in which one side wears the white hats and is absolutely good and the other side wears the black hats and is absolutely evil. Anything less clear than that frustrates them and they will reject reality in favor of some comic book fantasy version of reality if it makes their ideas more clear and lets the group they are closer to be the absolutely good side.

With abortion there are only two options as to when live begins that give clarity. One option is at conception and the other option is at birth. Since the baby just before birth is viable outside of the womb conception is really the only possible choice for when life begins that can satisfy a person who fears uncertainty. So life must begin at conception if you want clarity and therefore abortion must be murder if you want clarity.

"Thou shalt not kill" is clear.

Whether or not to let some child that you have never seen starve to death is can not be clear so most Christian right people refuse to think about this situation while other Christian right people are quite generous with money to feed the children and to convert the hungry children to Christianity to "save their souls".

The fear of uncertainty is probably the biggest force driving people to embrace religion and to be so hostile against non-believers. The Religious right types desperately try to convince themselves of the absolute truth of their scriptures because they can't handle the pressure and responsibility that comes with having to think for themselves and make decisions while knowing they they do not know. So they pretend that they know, to fool themselves, so that they don't have to worry about making mistakes.

 

[iceaura]

Abortion is unjustifiable taking of innocent human life.

If anyone actually believed that, the argument might be different - but there is no way to accept that as a genuine belief. No society, no religion, no group of people, no individual even in relevant circumstances, acts as if they believed a three month embryo was an innocent human life, in any context at all except a discussion of voluntary abortion controlled by the woman.

And so the real factor involved is pretty obviously visible, and it isn't the "innocent human life" that exists in no other context.

 

[nirakar]

If anyone actually believed that, the argument might be different - but there is no way to accept that as a genuine belief. No society, no religion, no group of people, no individual even in relevant circumstances, acts as if they believed a three month embryo was an innocent human life, in any context at all except a discussion of voluntary abortion controlled by the woman.

Wrong, something between 1/4th and 3/4ths of the people on this Earth acts as if they believed a three month embryo was an innocent human life and the fact that society tolerates the murder of innocents is difficult for them to tolerate.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Wrong, something between 1/4th and 3/4ths of the people on this Earth acts as if they believed a three month embryo was an innocent human life and the fact that society tolerates the murder of innocents is difficult for them to tolerate.

Which explains why Catholic women from Southern Ireland were always sneaking over the border to get abortions in England.

I think you are right that its difficult for them to tolerate, I think there are many things that are difficult for them to tolerate as they attempt to pass on their religious morality on others. Some people think its wrong to have an abortion, others just want to control what another does with their body and life. Not that they really care about 'the innocent'.

 

[iceaura]

Wrong, something between 1/4th and 3/4ths of the people on this Earth acts as if they believed a three month embryo was an innocent human life

Not one culture or community I've ever met or heard of.

Find me a cemetery or funeral tradition - even a hospital routine involving the same bureaucratic procedures as a death, such as a doctor's determination of time of death in the little body when expelled alive - for miscarriages, for example. Or a murder/manslaughter charge, legal determination of inheritance, anything like that, involving a first trimester miscarriage. Or a census that includes pregnancies. Or a child mortality rate that includes miscarriages. Any recognition whatsoever of the presence of a dead human being's body, including a common practice of fishing a miscarriage out of the toilet, would do, if it dated back to before the politicized abortion argument in a Western country.

Not even the obvious lack of such ritual or common understanding is visible - the local Catholic hospitals in my town have always discarded early miscarriages with removed organs and other dead tissue, incinerated it all as biological waste, without anyone even questioning the matter. The local Catholic cemeteries have no section of little graves, for the early deaths of the innocent human beings, and no one even notices.

There is no common human belief that a three month embryo is an "innocent human life", and there has never been one.