As far as prepondrence of evidence goes... ther seems to be lots of esamples of events havin causes... whats an esample of an event not havin a cause.???
Humans are robots
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As far as prepondrence of evidence goes... ther seems to be lots of esamples of events havin causes... whats an esample of an event not havin a cause.???
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
I imagine you felt compelled to post that.
sdf ett wlkkl wej00w jj.
O really... but how is quantum Mechanics suposed to make "free-will" occur..???
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
I'm uncertain about that. (On principle.)
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
O really... but how is quantum Mechanics suposed to make "free-will" occur..???
The bes esplinaton ive herd amounts to:::
Quantum mechanics is so well understood that we know thangs hapen for no reason... an... well... anyhow... dew to complexity thangs are to chaotic to predict which obvously equals "free-will".!!!
:shrug:
O really... but how is quantum Mechanics suposed to make "free-will" occur..???
The bes esplinaton ive herd amounts to:::
Quantum mechanics is so well understood that we know thangs hapen for no reason... an... well... anyhow... dew to complexity thangs are to chaotic to predict which obvously equals "free-will".!!!
:shrug:
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
cluelusshusbund said:
Ophiolite said:
Thank you for taking the time to respond, however I was not looking for an explanation. Since we were discussing quantum mechanics it seemed appropriate to make passing reference to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which I did with the two emboldened words.cluelusshusbund said:
(Ophiolite's Seventtenth Law - When you have to explain them it is apparent you should never have told them.)
You'r welcom... an no biggy... the estra effort it took me to give an esplanaton was a pleasure.!!!
Yes... no dout thats what "some" people was thankin so good for you for pontin out that "white-elephant"... lol.!!!
Yep... an ive even herd people say... "free-will" has to be true cause who woudnt want to havve free-will
PS
Woud you like to be my frind.???
Cybernetics
Registered Member
So in conclusion from the last few posts the only source we have for hanging on to free will are quantum mechanics which is efectivly laws that dictate that everything is a big game of chance. So you are still not actualy having free will, you are simply the slave to the roling of a metaphorical dice instead (make it a big furry squeeky one if it makes you any happier)
Chance only exists up to the point of making a choice. Namely before a dice roll, it could be anything (*within a predefined range*), it's only when you make the roll do you get an outcome, and that outcome is definitive.
In fact I kind of have a theory which would suggest we are capable of "feeling" this uncertainty. It's a simple one that many people will have a chance to do at some point in their life. It just requires you to have to stand in front of a number of your peers, to do a lecture, read poetry, sing or play music. In any of those cases there is prior to your "performance" a period of anxiety, perhaps you aren't happy with how you look, perhaps you've had an off day up to this point, perhaps you just think the crowd your about to subject yourself too looks surprising hostile.
This is the point where you might feel your stomach swirl, butterflies flapping their wings or potentially even your insides contorting to the point of cramp. I suggest this exists because you are at a nexis point, the point where you decide either "the show must go on" or "is there a back way out of here?". In either of these cases, you make a decision, and when you make that decision you commit yourself to it.... and funnily enough, the butterfly's stop flapping or the cramp fades away.
You could just pose it as being an attack of anxiety, but I'm pretty sure that something at a Quantum Mechanical level is registering, it's just nobodies ever identified it to be that way.
In fact I kind of have a theory which would suggest we are capable of "feeling" this uncertainty. It's a simple one that many people will have a chance to do at some point in their life. It just requires you to have to stand in front of a number of your peers, to do a lecture, read poetry, sing or play music. In any of those cases there is prior to your "performance" a period of anxiety, perhaps you aren't happy with how you look, perhaps you've had an off day up to this point, perhaps you just think the crowd your about to subject yourself too looks surprising hostile.
This is the point where you might feel your stomach swirl, butterflies flapping their wings or potentially even your insides contorting to the point of cramp. I suggest this exists because you are at a nexis point, the point where you decide either "the show must go on" or "is there a back way out of here?". In either of these cases, you make a decision, and when you make that decision you commit yourself to it.... and funnily enough, the butterfly's stop flapping or the cramp fades away.
You could just pose it as being an attack of anxiety, but I'm pretty sure that something at a Quantum Mechanical level is registering, it's just nobodies ever identified it to be that way.
No one has yet achived AI - I don't think anyone ever will.
Show me where I am wrong.
Show me a single piece of software that will assimilate data in a format it was not programmed to accept and utilize reason to learn new concepts.
At best we have some software that is almost passable at simulating AI under tight constraints.
Frankly, as response like the above indicates to me that you know nothing about AI or "intelligent machines" at all.
Cybernetics
Registered Member
I have to say that is a very intresting theory which i belive makes quite alot of sence but i cannot agree becasue quantem mechanics have not even been proved to afect microscopic particles, intresting however.
But the point of the matter is you making that decision is not quantum mechanics but you thinking about it. Thias is what is called by very simple and idiotic people as "fight or flight" more inteligently known as adrenalin. you are making a decision which you cant make until you are on the spot and its a standard reaction to stress, once you have made the decision you get into the grrove and cease profduction of adrenalin thus the feeling subsides.
In better relation to the thread if you went into the lecture theater you would always continue with the lecture. how many times have you seen lecturers just corpse and leave instead of starting? they insytantly weigh up the options and make a snap informed decison which they would always make, thus you are not exercisiong free will but instead reacting to stimuli.
But the point of the matter is you making that decision is not quantum mechanics but you thinking about it. Thias is what is called by very simple and idiotic people as "fight or flight" more inteligently known as adrenalin. you are making a decision which you cant make until you are on the spot and its a standard reaction to stress, once you have made the decision you get into the grrove and cease profduction of adrenalin thus the feeling subsides.
In better relation to the thread if you went into the lecture theater you would always continue with the lecture. how many times have you seen lecturers just corpse and leave instead of starting? they insytantly weigh up the options and make a snap informed decison which they would always make, thus you are not exercisiong free will but instead reacting to stimuli.
Quantum Mechanics has not been proven at all.
Stryder,
While I agree that free will does exist, your examples don't hold water.
There is no way you could know all the countless stimuli that are impacting your decision making process at that point.
Emotions are most certainly products of cause and effect. If your mother always made chocolate chip cookies when you were sick and they made you feel better, the smell of home-baked chocolate chip cookies will most likely evoke pleasent emotions - even if you don't consciously understand why.
Pavlov's dog didn't know why he drooled.
There is a reason why some people get stage fright and some don't.
There is no way to prove this one way or another, of course, because there is no way to fully re-create any condition in the universe.
Welp,
To todays date all research indicates we are 100% deterministic.
While there is quantum instability beyond the atom the atoms of our mind are stable.
Neurons are made of atoms and no thought or action has ever been demonstrated not to be 100% the product of their states.
The mind itself is following the same physics as your faucet to let you believe it is magic
Go on lets hear why people are the only thing in this universe to conduct electrical signals in such a manner...
How your thoughts prove that your thoughts are not made from just your mind!
It would be nice to hear you say this after you watch Jeff Hawkins part 1-5 on you tube as you do not know these things about how your mind works and are ignorant of what circuits your mind is made of. He will tell you things you have never heard because he has done the homework of truth. You will enjoy yourself more when you know how you work and won't be so uptight about what thinking is etc...
Oh, dearie...you were simply determined to think the above made sense and ruled out other possibilities. Of course it makes sense to you and seems unassailable, just like people once were determined to see the world as flat. You poor thing.
But any conditon that can be recreated will wind up wit the sam result... ie... a line of domonos stood on end about 3/4 inch from each other... when the firs 1 in line is pushed over the hole line of dominos will fall into each other until ther all knocked down... an this will hapen time after time wit-out fale.!!!
Do you know of an esample of when the sam conditons produce a diferent effect.???
Really?
Prove it.
Nope.
No one can, because it is impossible to say.
For esample... you can corectly manufacture 1000 tv sets wit the sam corect parts an all the tvs will work the sam way... no.???
You can roll a bowlin ball down the alley in a way that gets a strike an ever time you roll it the sam way you will get a strike... no.???
I think you should agree on certain words, such as what do you understand when you say “conditions”, “same”, “universe”; actually, every single word you are using in this argument. One Raven has a point: You can not “fully” repeat same thing twice, atoms move, environment changes, and imagine what happens to your galaxy... However, limited or isolated systems can use repetitive technology. Yes we can make TVs, and nature can do DNA, but hey, this is an interdependent universe: DNA could not exist without a more or less predictable and dependable conditions provided by atoms, gravity and/or thermodynamics. We couldn’t do any plans without the -relative- predictability of DNA.
You see, I didn’t get it, what is the main point of this?
By the way, you are a class cluelusshusbund. You really give me the mental existence of the character with your avatar picture and the way you write the words. You are an artist man…
You see, I didn’t get it, what is the main point of this?
By the way, you are a class cluelusshusbund. You really give me the mental existence of the character with your avatar picture and the way you write the words. You are an artist man…
Sure... but what we do know is... the closer we can duplicate the conditons... the mor likely the out-com will be closer to the sam time after time.!!!
That the sam cause leads to the sam effect is why we are able to do anythang productive.!!!
I say the evidence that we do have ponts to no such thang as "free-will"... an ther is no evidence that we do have "free-will"... an this is a definiton of free-wlli i prepose:::
To have an un-influenced thout.!!!
Thank you... but sinse i dont have free-will i dont take a personal credit for it... it all was in the grate cards i hapen to hold.!!!