Human Right to Brainwash and Prostitute

[James R]

According to Human Rights as known.....

Do Humans have the right to brainwash?
Do humans have the right to prostitute?

See Fraggle's response. Answers: yes and yes (themselves), no and no (other people).

If No, please defend your answer...

Brainwashing people and prostituting them against their will harms them and also interferes with their personal autonomy.

If yes, why do almost all 'human rights' loving countries have problems with prostitution?

1. Religious prudishness.
2. Harms done to prostitutes.

And if these countries do not respect these Human Rights, why should anyone respect the "Human Rights" that these countries made themselves- because it would seem that it is only a political tool.

Which countries? Which human rights are not being respected? Be specific.

 

[Norsefire]

The problem is defining brainwashing.......simply raising your child is brainwashing.

Raising your child to agree with you politically, for instance, could be considered brainwashing.

 

[786]

See Fraggle's response. Answers: yes and yes (themselves), no and no (other people).

Ok

And who is deciding that they are doing it against their will? If such a situation exists they might as well contact police and have a crack down and be given millions?

Willful prostitution will harm them? Isn't that their problem.. Shouldn't they have the right to be hurt or be sadistic if they want. Or are we being protectionists?

Which countries? Which human rights are not being respected? Be specific.

Prostitution is illegal in the US... of course there are prostitutes who are not being forced (by some gang or something) but do so of their own free choice.. Perhaps they don't like working hard and just want to use the 'resources' they have to make some money?

Peace be unto you

 

[Norsefire]

I don't think prostitution ought to be illegal, even though I think it is a distasteful practice.

It ought to be a free market, after all.

 

[786]

I don't think prostitution ought to be illegal, even though I think it is a distasteful practice.

It ought to be a free market, after all.

There is no free market, at least as long as you have government stupidity involved and that Federal Reserve System...

Prostitution is monopolized.... You call it 'Adult Entertainment'.

Peace be unto you

 

[Norsefire]

There is no free market, at least as long as you have government stupidity involved and that Federal Reserve System...

Amen to that!

 

[James R]

Norsefire:

The problem is defining brainwashing.......simply raising your child is brainwashing.

Raising your child to agree with you politically, for instance, could be considered brainwashing.

Yes. That's why there is no specific human rights declaration regarding brainwashing as such. It is not a black and white issue.


786:

And who is deciding that they are doing it against their will?

They are.

Willful prostitution will harm them?

Yes, sometimes. For example, some customers can turn violent.

Isn't that their problem..

Yes. It's also a society problem, because society pays for police investigations, prosecutions etc.

Shouldn't they have the right to be hurt or be sadistic if they want.

Yes, if they want, assuming they are of sound mind.

Prostitution is illegal in the US...

Yes, and greater harms are the result.

...of course there are prostitutes who are not being forced (by some gang or something) but do so of their own free choice.. Perhaps they don't like working hard and just want to use the 'resources' they have to make some money?

You don't think prostitution is hard work. I think you have no idea. Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[786]

They are.

Seems to me you are for them.. Yeah maybe they don't want to prostitute but still do... Hell, I don't want to work but I do.... tough luck.

Yes, sometimes. For example, some customers can turn violent.

Nobody forced them? There is a thing called 'police'- of course its illegal to prostitute in the first place so why would they report and get caught themselves?

Yes. It's also a society problem, because society pays for police investigations, prosecutions etc.

But that is with everything... Maybe they should lock everyone up in their rooms because if something happens to them... who pays? Apparently society has a problem with people living their lives?

Yes, if they want, assuming they are of sound mind.

Okay, so if prostitution hurts them that is okay because they chose to profession... so why bring up anything about prostitution hurting them... Are you now in the business of deciding if these people are mental or not? Perhaps they accept being hurt as part of their job description?

Yes, and greater harms are the result.

So prostitution should be legalized? And every country, basically, is abusing human rights as it is not legalized?

You don't think prostitution is hard work. I think you have no idea. Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is.

Sure because I'm not involved in prostitution so I don't know if its hard work or not... but the point is that every major country is abusing human rights by suppressing prostitution...

Why are these not included in the UN Declaration... also who is deciding what goes in and what goes out of 'human rights'-.

Peace be unto you

 

[Norsefire]

James is going to get you into this situation: agree with him or you're uncivilized or backwards.

 

[James R]

786:

I think you've lost track of whatever it was you were arguing. Now you're just posting knee-jerk nonsense responses.

Yeah maybe they don't want to prostitute but still do... Hell, I don't want to work but I do.... tough luck.

Are you saying it is tough luck if a prostitute is subjected to a violent assault? Is that what your religious morality tells you?

Yes, sometimes. For example, some customers can turn violent.

Nobody forced them?

I think you'll find that where prostitutes are raped or assaulted it is not with their consent. Therefore, somebody forced them. See?

There is a thing called 'police'- of course its illegal to prostitute in the first place so why would they report and get caught themselves?

What are you talking about? Do you have a point or are you just rambling?

Yes. It's also a society problem, because society pays for police investigations, prosecutions etc.

But that is with everything... Maybe they should lock everyone up in their rooms because if something happens to them... who pays? Apparently society has a problem with people living their lives?

No. Mostly it costs society nothing for people to live their lives. What is your point? Do you have one?

Okay, so if prostitution hurts them that is okay because they chose to profession...

Go back and re-read my previous posts, where I made it quite clear that it is not ok to hurt somebody just because they are a prostitute. They do not sign up to get hurt. They sign up to sell sex. Get it?

so why bring up anything about prostitution hurting them...

You asked.

Are you now in the business of deciding if these people are mental or not?

I'm not, but there are qualified professionals who have that job.

Perhaps they accept being hurt as part of their job description?

I don't think you have a clue. Would you willingly sign up for a job where being assaulted was expected? Return to the real world, 786.

So prostitution should be legalized?

Yes.

And every country, basically, is abusing human rights as it is not legalized?

No. There is no accepted human right to be a prostitute.

Sure because I'm not involved in prostitution so I don't know if its hard work or not... but the point is that every major country is abusing human rights by suppressing prostitution...

No major country suppresses prostitution. Some ensure that it only happens underground, which makes life a lot more dangerous for prostitutes.

There is no accepted human right to be a prostitute.

Why are these not included in the UN Declaration...

Because this choice of career is covered by more general provisions in the Declaration. Have you read it?

also who is deciding what goes in and what goes out of 'human rights'-.

The enlightened peoples of the world.

 

[Norsefire]

James, we can't even agree on what is enlightened! To you, you have to be a liberal left-wing socialist social democrat in order to be "enlightened", and there's a bias right there.

See the problem?

 

[James R]

Norsefire:

Go to wikipedia and look up "enlightenment".

 

[786]

786:

I think you've lost track of whatever it was you were arguing. Now you're just posting knee-jerk nonsense responses.

Actually I feel the discussion is going quite well .

Are you saying it is tough luck if a prostitute is subjected to a violent assault? Is that what your religious morality tells you?

Violent assault? Are prostitutes only ones to be 'subjected' to these... there is a thing called POLICE- but the problem is why would a prostitute want to get themselves in trouble knowing it is illegal- perhaps they would report all incidences of such 'assault' if you made it legal.... Many rapes go unreported... Shall we keep girls locked in their rooms?

I think you'll find that where prostitutes are raped or assaulted it is not with their consent. Therefore, somebody forced them. See?

If it was legal they could report to the police... See? Are you in favor of locking girls in their rooms? They get sexually assaulted and raped and they do not report it many times- but you want to protect them from this right?

What are you talking about? Do you have a point or are you just rambling?

See above... the point is quite clear.

No. Mostly it costs society nothing for people to live their lives. What is your point? Do you have one?

If someone gets murdered- society pays nothing? If they fall on a wet floor of some public building they pay nothing? Give me a break... You're making up excuses to the 'problems of prostitution'.

Go back and re-read my previous posts, where I made it quite clear that it is not ok to hurt somebody just because they are a prostitute. They do not sign up to get hurt. They sign up to sell sex. Get it?

I agree. But does a human have a right to give up their rights? Or the right to be hurt? If they get hurt involuntarily they can go to the police? Things can be decided before, like a contract- breach of contract is just a lawsuit? So whats the problem..

You asked.

Actually you're the one who brought it up and I only responded.

I'm not, but there are qualified professionals who have that job.

And they have the authority to rip off someone else's rights? If someone wants to get hurt, why should a professional be able to stop that?

I don't think you have a clue. Would you willingly sign up for a job where being assaulted was expected? Return to the real world, 786.

Who knows, some folks don't mind for the money? I wouldn't eat shit like on X Factor for $50,000 either but people don't mind? And the point is if it was legalized then prostitutes would more likely report to police and the profession would evolve to have 'high standards'

No. There is no accepted human right to be a prostitute.

Is that like some elitist deciding what human rights are?

No major country suppresses prostitution. Some ensure that it only happens underground, which makes life a lot more dangerous for prostitutes.

So you don't go to jail for prostitution?

There is no accepted human right to be a prostitute.

Why, and who is deciding this? And wth are they deciding it?

Because this choice of career is covered by more general provisions in the Declaration. Have you read it?

So is it accepted as a human right or not? Don't give me contradictory bs (see above.)

The enlightened peoples of the world.

Does that include you.... So is this is a religion? You have to believe in the 'Enlightenment' to decide what Human Rights are and how to interpret them and who to impose them on, and who gets to write them (UN?)...

Seems like you also have a 'secret' religion going on here that is in support of imposing their belief on others. That is why this is in the religion forum.

Peace be unto you

 

[Norsefire]

Norsefire:

Go to wikipedia and look up "enlightenment".

I'm well aware of what the Enlightenment was; that doesn't help the argument. The point is, we still won't agree on what enlightened values are.

 

[James R]

786:

Are you saying it is tough luck if a prostitute is subjected to a violent assault? Is that what your religious morality tells you?

Violent assault? Are prostitutes only ones to be 'subjected' to these...

You avoided the question. Why?

...there is a thing called POLICE- but the problem is why would a prostitute want to get themselves in trouble knowing it is illegal- perhaps they would report all incidences of such 'assault' if you made it legal.... Many rapes go unreported... Shall we keep girls locked in their rooms?
....
If it was legal they could report to the police... See? Are you in favor of locking girls in their rooms? They get sexually assaulted and raped and they do not report it many times- but you want to protect them from this right?

Are you arguing my side of the argument now? You're saying that prostitution should be legalised. I agree with you. Are we done then?

If someone gets murdered- society pays nothing? If they fall on a wet floor of some public building they pay nothing?

I agree with you again. In these cases there is a cost to society. Done?

Give me a break... You're making up excuses to the 'problems of prostitution'.

Huh? What are you talking about? I agree with you. You want to legalise prostitution. I want to legalise it. We AGREE! Get it?

But does a human have a right to give up their rights?

Yes. Have you ever seen product labels that say "Purchaser agrees to use this product that their own risk, and any loss or harm incurred is not the responsibility of the manufacturer"? Or maybe you've used some computer software. Ever read the small print on limitation of liability? That's you agreeing to give up your rights when you hit the "agree" button.

If someone wants to get hurt, why should a professional be able to stop that?

If the person is not of sound mind and would not reasonably make that decision if sane. Of course. Do you disagree?

I don't think you have a clue. Would you willingly sign up for a job where being assaulted was expected? Return to the real world, 786.

Who knows, some folks don't mind for the money? I wouldn't eat shit like on X Factor for $50,000 either but people don't mind? And the point is if it was legalized then prostitutes would more likely report to police and the profession would evolve to have 'high standards'

So we agree. Are we done?

No. There is no accepted human right to be a prostitute.

Is that like some elitist deciding what human rights are?

No. Like I said above, the peoples of the world signed the UN Declaration on Human Rights, via their representatives.

There is no accepted human right to be a prostitute.

Why, and who is deciding this? And wth are they deciding it?

The governments of the world are deciding this. Many of them are democratic and are expected to enact the will of their people.

This is basic stuff, 786. Do I need to explain to you what governments do?

So is it accepted as a human right or not?

Prostitution? Not explicitly. Like I said before.

The enlightened peoples of the world.

Does that include you....

Yes. I hope so.

So is this is a religion?

No. Like I said, it is based on reason, not dogma. Did you look at wikipedia?

You have to believe in the 'Enlightenment' to decide what Human Rights are and how to interpret them and who to impose them on, and who gets to write them (UN?)...

No. Most people have a good intuitive sense of what is fair and right. Most people agree on most human rights. If they ignore them, it is usually for reasons of self interest.

Seems like you also have a 'secret' religion going on here that is in support of imposing their belief on others. That is why this is in the religion forum.

Go and read that wikipedia page I told you to go to.

 

[Norsefire]

There's no point to having a universal declaration of human rights. Let individual nations determine what human rights are.


In the good ol' US of A, the states have alot of power to determine their own laws. For instance, in Massachusetts, the people DECIDED to legalize homosexual marriage, whereas in Texas, the people DECIDED to put into the constitution that marriage MUST be between a man and a woman.

Good ol' democracy. Different cultures can have different laws.

 

[James R]

There's no point to having a universal declaration of human rights. Let individual nations determine what human rights are.

They did. Then they voted to have a Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

In the good ol' US of A, the states have alot of power to determine their own laws. For instance, in Massachusetts, the people DECIDED to legalize homosexual marriage, whereas in Texas, the people DECIDED to put into the constitution that marriage MUST be between a man and a woman.

This is a good example of backwards religious thinking at work.

Good ol' democracy. Different cultures can have different laws.

Yes. And so?

 

[786]

I've left out all the "I agrees"...

You avoided the question. Why?

I didn't avoid it... I just left it out because it was irrelevant, my religious morality that is..

If the person is not of sound mind and would not reasonably make that decision if sane. Of course. Do you disagree?

So only 'sane' person has Human Rights, otherwise he belongs to the 'professionals' and they can handle his rights?- yes I disagree.

No. Like I said above, the peoples of the world signed the UN Declaration on Human Rights, via their representatives.

How many people think their government actually represents them... secondly that still doesn't taken into about the imposition on the other people. Are we talking about a world democracy? :shrug: Did people elect a world government? Apparently the UN is extremely biased, only major powers have any 'real' say in the issues.

This is basic stuff, 786. Do I need to explain to you what governments do?

Well you do need to tell me that they know whats best for everyone, and that they know what the correct morals are, and that they know what rights everyone should have... I would love to hear an explanation for these.

Prostitution? Not explicitly. Like I said before.

Not explicitly but its there? Yet its not recognized? So what the hell is it?

Yes. I hope so.

You don't have a membership card? Am I wasting time with a wannabe... How do I know you're enlightened... Don't tell me wikipedia because it doesn't say what are 'enlightened values' or how that gives you special privilege over others.

No. Like I said, it is based on reason, not dogma. Did you look at wikipedia?

But where does the 'special' privilege of you getting to decide Human Rights comes from? There is certainly a dogma that is there from that 'reason' of yours.

No. Most people have a good intuitive sense of what is fair and right. Most people agree on most human rights. If they ignore them, it is usually for reasons of self interest.

But if someone else writes Human Rights, they really aren't Human Rights because they aren't enlightened people?

Go and read that wikipedia page I told you to go to.

Wiki? You're the one making the claim that the Human Rights are written by enlightened people... And that its okay to have wars over them as if it was your religion... I'm not trying to read definitions but see what you are really saying. Islam comes from root words salaam- meaning Peace- don't tell me you accept Islam as peaceful religion? Why the hell should I give a damn about your 'definitions' when clearly the views you hold are similar to subjugation based on belief- ironically an attribute many atheists give to religions? :shrug:

Peace be unto you

 

[Norsefire]

They did. Then they voted to have a Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The only problem is the "Universal" part.

This is a good example of backwards religious thinking at work.

Okay, James, these are the times when you really make me impatient and frustrated.

You say democracy is great, but now you're saying that not only do you have to be democratic, but you have to VOTE A CERTAIN WAY? No. They can vote for whatever damn well they please.

You can think it's backwards religious thinking all you want, but that's your opinion and not a fact; I can think Massachusetts is a dirty backwards dump, and that's my opinion.

Yes. And so?

Exactly.

 

[James R]

786:

So only 'sane' person has Human Rights, otherwise he belongs to the 'professionals' and they can handle his rights?

I didn't say that. I said that in some cases it is acceptable to restrict an insane person's freedom of action to prevent him from harming himself. Do you disagree?

How many people think their government actually represents them...

Most of them in democracies, I'd hope. If the government doesn't represent them, they can vote in a new one that does.

Did people elect a world government? Apparently the UN is extremely biased, only major powers have any 'real' say in the issues.

Nobody said the UN is perfect.

Prostitution? Not explicitly. Like I said before.

Not explicitly but its there? Yet its not recognized? So what the hell is it?

Have you looked up the UN Declaration on Human Rights? It's online. Go and look at it. Read the whole thing. See if you can see how the right to be a prostitute is covered in the Declaration. It will be a good exercise for you, and you'll also get more of an idea about human rights in general.

How do I know you're enlightened... Don't tell me wikipedia because it doesn't say what are 'enlightened values' or how that gives you special privilege over others.

I never claimed a special privilege.

But where does the 'special' privilege of you getting to decide Human Rights comes from?

Education. Once you know more about the Enlightenment and its philosophical ideas, you'll agree with me. Unless self-interest gets in the way, of course.

But if someone else writes Human Rights, they really aren't Human Rights because they aren't enlightened people?

What are you talking about? People generally agree on human rights, except where self-interest gets in the way.

Wiki? You're the one making the claim that the Human Rights are written by enlightened people... And that its okay to have wars over them as if it was your religion...

I was very specific about war. Go back and read my previous post where I explained. Read it until you understand the important point I was making.

Islam comes from root words salaam- meaning Peace- don't tell me you accept Islam as peaceful religion?

Some brands of Islam are peaceful. Some are not. There are wide disagreements within Islam. Compare the Sunni, Shia and Sufi traditions, for example.

Why the hell should I give a damn about your 'definitions' when clearly the views you hold are similar to subjugation based on belief- ironically an attribute many atheists give to religions?

I never mentioned subjugation. You're the one who keeps bringing that up.