I think Assange has lost his way
I think the media is too focused on his personal and private life, which gives the appearance that he has lost his way.
He does have a large following.
You missed my point.
People are more focused on him than they are on the actual leaks..
I mean look at this discussion as a perfect example. People are more focused on the man than they are on the information that has been leaked.
Absolutely. But he's not fully operational in exposing that to the fullest- his skin's too thin. Accountability is something he's gaming in the swirly world surrounding him- but things don't compute the same to Assange when it comes to self-examination.
His skin shouldn't have anything to do with anything. The only thing the world should be focused on is what he has divulged. But instead, we're concerned about whether he used a condom or not. So he then has to defend himself against the accusations and he is criticised for having lost his way as a result.
Either way, he cannot win.
No yes, (I think gag threats are unjust).
I think any threat against someone's life is unjust.
Go back to Sweden and answer the charges; write some self-adoring books; learn to really write code; stop playing at journalism; oh, and here's a really important one: Be nice to women, because they're people too. By the way, you're in fine form today, Bells.
He does not need to go back to Sweden. The charges have all the appearance of being bogus. How many women he sleeps with is no one's concern. The charges of rape, when they first appeared, were thrown out of court because the facts did not add up or point to rape and there was a complete lack of evidence. So he was told he could go about his business and he was told he could leave the country. Now suddenly, another dump later and the charges return (funny that) and America starts rumbling about his being a terrorist and about extradition. He knows that the laws in the UK offers him more protection against extradition.. Of course he's going to fight going back to Sweden. Hell, the judge who heard his case in the UK stated that he did not expect him to face the charges in Sweden because the evidence was so flimsy and because of the simple fact that the courts in Sweden threw it out on the same evidence a few months ago.
You appear to be more concerned that he wasn't nice to women. Seriously, what business is it of anyone which woman he has sex with and when and how? You are buying into what the media feeds you. Maybe it is American media that is at fault.
Your attacks against him are personal in nature. You have an issue with the man.. Ignore the man and look at what he is releasing. That is what you and everyone should be doing.
The legal grounds for extraditing Assange to the USA are very shaky. Swedish authorities have ruled out extraditing him through the present warrant. They are adamant about keeping the matter of rape legally separate from the highly strained and hypothetical threats of an extradition to the USA for espionage. It is not so easy in USi tradition and habit to specially-render a prominent white boy from Over There without a semblance of legitimate legal process.
The whole rape charge is shaky Hype.
I am curious about your gullibility here. No offense, but it's like you're parroting fox.
You are more concerned about who he sleeps with and
his behaviour outside of Wikileaks than you are about the leaks themselves.
I agree. The noises being made about shutting down investigative journalism are premature in a political and technical sense. We are not a closed society and police state yet.
You'd be surprised. Your Government runs an offshore prison and tortures people for information, as a starter. I think you may be deluded in thinking that you're not a closed society. You are very much a closed society with a semblance of freedom.
Get guarantees of non-extradition beyond Sweden, and honor the Swedish warrant.
Okay.. What does Sweden have to do with Wikileaks?
The issue with Sweden is a private matter and outside of Wikileaks and outside of the leaked documents themselves.
No, Assange's idea of "hiding" is a joke. He was on a lecture and party tour, and bedding down with strangers.
And?
Does it bother you that he has sex with different women or has one night stands?
I don't think any of us here try to put things in ways that we deem immoral and unjust, do we?
Hmm.. You tell me:
"bedding down with strangers"
Look, I know that the last USi President's "Yer either with us or against us" schtick was lapped up to a great extent down under- but I mean, really Bells: We know things aren't really that simple, and if you've read my posts you know that I'm a dinkum WikiLeaks fan. I really hope that WL survives Assange's stint as spooksmodel.
Your Government's message to the world has not really changed Hype.
If you are a Wikileaks fan, I'd suggest you ignore Assange "bedding down with strangers".
That's a separate case, but one I'm happy to turn to... It's the one that really matters.
It is directly tied to the case. He was bragging about what he did. Assange never divulged his name..
Sure, but he's taking a page from Bin Laden, not Sy Hersh.
By saying he'll name names?
Nobody with any sense doubts that claim.
So your claim that it is all unfounded was what exactly?
And he's a shrill little sheila.
Again, personal attacks about how he reacts to private threats made against himself and others around him...?
You must not have seen the color of Media up here. I don't drink much from the mainstream- it's distinctly yellow.
Hmmm... So the question remains, why are you concentrating so much on his personal life?
Let's let the courts decide in every case, shall we?
You think he should face trial for the leaks?
He's whimpered that he'll megadump a steaming stream of unredacted all-he's got if he gets frightened, revealing what's most important to him: His precious Assange.
He has megadumped and released names in the past..
Did you miss the parts where he has walked out on interviews and ignored questions about his personal life and states clearly that he only wants to discuss the leaked documents? I mean if it were all about "his precious Assange", he'd only discuss himself, wouldn't he?
And yet...?
Indeed: He should go beat the rap, and make them all look perfectly silly if he's innocent.
You mean again? He's beaten it before when the courts threw it out due to lack of evidence and facts... So how many times is he going to have to beat this particular rap? Each time he does a document dump?
Your laws are powerless before Our Great American Free World Leadership.
And yet.. above..:
"The legal grounds for extraditing Assange to the USA are very shaky. Swedish authorities have ruled out extraditing him through the present warrant. They are adamant about keeping the matter of rape legally separate from the highly strained and hypothetical threats of an extradition to the USA for espionage. It is not so easy in USi tradition and habit to specially-render a prominent white boy from Over There without a semblance of legitimate legal process."
And it is not something you can guarantee, is it?
Assange leaked his wiki all by himself. He can go see the Judge all by himself. He does not need to drag the fight for accountability through the muck. He needs to answer the charges like a responsible man, not a narcissistic nookie-nerd, so we can all go about our business saving the world from (or for) tyranny. Which side is it you're on again?
You mean by turning himself in, going to jail, etc?
How utterly irresponsible!
"Mr. Assange"- gaah! that egotistical git really pisses me off... er, what was that, Bells?
Again, you concentrate too much on him..
Assange is making very conspicuous mistakes that a serious journalist would never do.
By fighting a dubious rape charge?
He claims to be a journalist. I haven't heard him specifically claim his work as "investigative", but that is certainly the genre he works in. I don't dispute that Assange is a journalist, as he says he is. Whenever he speaks or writes publicly about news sourced through his organization, it look like journalism to me. I consider Assange a journalist, but not a very good one: Recently he's been making allegations without corroborating them. He's been verging on (arguably committing) blackmail, by threatening an unredacted megadump if he's arrested That's not good journalism- it damages his own credibility, and that of WikiLeaks. He does a much better job for WikiLeaks and his sources when he keeps quiet, and allows more professional people to break the stories, and to take care to not conflate things as you are doing here, mixing Assange's personal issues within the context of the work of WikiLeaks. Good journalists know how to bring a story with a professional degree of focus.
Investigative journalists go out of their way to get the story - He is the messenger in that people being him the information and he publishes it.
He provides the documents to select news sources and then announces their release.. That is it.
He does not strip down and shake his tata's at the announcements, he does not take any personal questions during the announcements. He announces and he leaves. Really, at this point I need to ask, what more do you want?
The media has dug into his private life, tracked down his son and named said son in the media, they have tracked down his mother and named her and where she works and what she does, even where she lives. His interviews focus more on his personal life and when he rightly refuses to answer those questions, he is blamed for it.. So really, what more do you want?
Assange disrupts the mission of WikiLeaks by releasing information in a manner that compromises whistleblowers, and persons not implicated in criminal conspiracy.
But he has not. He has given the media organisations all the information and they have decided to release what they wanted to release..
Of course it is. Assange's problem in Sweden adds to the media smoke-screen, and that is one important reason why I think he should face the charges without delay.
Yes, but you are expecting that he goes to Sweden to face charges and then face the possibility of extradition when the charges in Sweden are a private matter and no one's business.. You are expecting him to act in a way that no one else would have. anyone in that situation would fight extradition to Sweden.
Assange displays an obsession with portraying himself as a leader.
He is the leader of the organisation.
Would you prefer he protrays himself as the mailman?
There is ample evidence in Assange's writing, interviews, and interaction with his associates, that he has much difficulty separating his self-image from his purported cause.
Ermm your quotes don't show that.. Quite the contrary:
"Although I still write, research and investigate my role is primarily that of a publisher and editor-in-chief who organises and directs other journalists."
The next quote he keeps saying by "us".. etc..
None of those who have left WikiLeaks have expressed any such intentions: They have consistently indicated that Assange is the prioblem, not WikiLeaks. I've already provided links showing this in this thread.
If you would like to explore the spinoffs (and I think it would be interesting) I think it would be more on topic in this thread:
The article you linked about his staff stated that they were starting their own 'leaks' site. From your link earlier:
Former WikiLeaks supporters at odds with founder Julian Assange will shortly launch OpenLeaks, a rival project aiming to get secret documents directly to media, one of them said Friday.
“I can confirm that we will be operating under the name ‘OpenLeaks’,” said former Icelandic WikiLeaks member Herbert Snorrason.
-----------------------------------------------
The Icelander, who quit WikiLeaks after a public feud with Assange, had already in November told media about the rival project.
(Source)
I have seen no expressions of hostility for the WikiLeaks project from those close associates who have parted company with Assange.
So starting a rival organisation is a show of love and support?
Assange is adept at such things on his own; he needs no help from anyone in that respect.
By telling the media to stick to the subject and stop discussing his rape charges which is private and personal and has nothing to do with Wikileaks?
I'm not certain of the relevance of that search to the meandering line of questioning you are offering me here. I am certain that I have never promoted harrassment of journalists, or crackdowns on freedom of speech in my country. It's as if you're not reading what I post closely, and taking superficial pot-shots at me from various angles. This makes it hard to keep to the standards we should set an example of here, IMO Bells. I know that you know the Forum Rules, so I won't get technical. But let's do try and promote a higher standard of discourse here (please?)
I would like for the most harmful crimes of our times to be exposed- Especially crimes on a global scale against the most basic human rights.
So why do you keep focusing on his private life like the rest of the media pack?
Why make comments about his not being nice women?
That Assange has become a distraction from more important things. His performance as a journalist, editor, leader, and spokesman has been abysmal.
I think that is a matter of personal opinion. I happen to disagree with you.
I have addressed this in posts above, but you do not seem to have comprehended what I offered. Please review, and I'll be happy to answer if you can continue with some acknowledgment and understanding of what I have already related here. I'm being very patient with you, because I do hold you in high regard. I'm going to back up a little, because the context of what came next in your many questions to me was unclear:
And again, the question remains. You haven't been clear. The thread is "How will Assange be punished for attempting to advance democracy?".. So why are you talking about his not being nice to women. How do you know he's not nice to women? Those women were twittering about how great he was, etc, before the rape charges mysteriously appeared after the previous document dump. You are accusing him of not focusing on Wikileaks when you aren't focusing on it either. You are demanding he goes back to Sweden to answer the charges - again, nothing to do with Wikileaks. Your responses have been a mirror of what you have seen in the media.
I would like for the most harmful crimes of our times to be exposed- Especially crimes on a global scale against the most basic human rights.
And that information is coming to light. I'd suggest you focus more on it than the messenger and demand your media does the same.
I'll settle for professional on-message journalism.
But he has been on message. He has provided the information but no one is listening because they are too interested in the sordid details of his sex life as reported by the media and as released by the Swedish Government.
Assange has been unable to separate his ego from his job, and that has been regularly taking him off message. He portrays his problem as the curse of being a "lightning rod", but the reality is that Assange consistently distracts from the WikiLeaks mission.
But he is not. The media is.
He is not to blame for the media wanting their dose of gossip.
Assange has not been charged with any crime under U.S. law.
So why is the US calling him a terrorist?
Long enough to settle the matter in Sweden.
Which has what to do with Wikileaks and this thread topic?
No, Assange has abused the information in very personal ways.
No, he has not. He has released to the media and released it on the site.
Yes, that is blackmail, and not within the bounds of responsible journalism.
By telling the States to back off?
I think he has the grounds to.
Assange has severe staffing difficulty because his ego gets in the way of his work. His "rival" former associates believe in the WikiLeaks mission, but disagree with Assange's personal conduct.
Again, why is his personal conduct coming up for discussion?
Yes, I am sure. I have offered you evidence to that effect. Your circular questioning is absurd and disrespectful here- "trolling". I'm pleased to explore the legal response of world governments to WikiLeaks with you, but please don't reduce this to absurd tail-chasing.
And you still don't have a point. You have consistently been off-topic about this thread. Unless you think not wearing a condom when he fucks a woman is an attempt to advance democracy, you really have no reason to accuse me of trolling.
You have made repeated accusations against him and how he runs the organisation - again, not on topic at all.
Good. Let's please try and start over with an intelligent and focused discussion. You've been asking a lot of leading questions of me that really don't acknowledge what I've offered you here. It seems to me like you would like to square off with me as if this is some sort of match, but it isn't cricket. It's a poor example of how to have a fruitful discussion here. I have plenty of fruit to offer, and I'll be happy to serve it up with a little less fisking.
I have been trying to get you to understand a simple fact. Assange's sex life and personal life has nothing to do with Wikileaks. Stop complaining that he's not the hero you want him to be. No one is perfect.
