How we know God exists

[KennyJC]

:bugeye: do you hold yourself responsible for the doings of your peers? religion, like any other organization, is subject to the evils of its - only human - members.
hell, i don't like any of the issues you brought up and i don't practice them and i DON'T think those priests should be forgiven. my belief helps me to avoid that shit. but i can't speak for my fellow man any more than you can.

Well just ask yourself if the ills in my post would be as common in a secular country. I will help you out here: They wouldn't.

It's not my concern if you are such a weak person, you need religion to stay away from 'evil' doings. With religion, people are not encouraged to be rational, or educated, hence all the social ills that come with that mentality.

 

[nubianconcubine]

Well just ask yourself if the ills in my post would be as common in a secular country. I will help you out here: They wouldn't.

It's not my concern if you are such a weak person, you need religion to stay away from 'evil' doings. With religion, people are not encouraged to be rational, or educated, hence all the social ills that come with that mentality.

show me a secular society with none of the ills of a religious society. in fact, point this utopia out to me on a map so that i can move there and live happily. better. why don't you move there and stop complaining about it.

 

[S.A.M.]

War, beheadings, abusing children by indoctrinating them in state schools, social issues pedalled by the christian right, intolerance, restriction of freedom, racism, homophobia, terrorism, opression of women, George Bush and the blatantly irrationality of every aspect of your belief.

So you see, your faith is not an individual thing, it collectively fucks up our society and our world. To respecting such delusional beliefs which make for an unstable group of people with questionable motives would be silly. Why do you think secular societies are healthy and peaceful and religious ones at war?

We just had this discussion in another thread. Chimps hunt and murder other chimps(power); dolphins bludgeon porpoises for no apparent reason except pleasure ( sadism); cats toy with and kill animals they won't even eat and killer whales eat only the lips and tongues of the whales and then leave them to die (torture). Violence is an inherent part of nature. Animals are territorial, they kill and maim for their perceived territory; they murder their children. Human beings do all these things and more and the only difference their consciousness make sis that they think of more sadistic ways in which to do it. Violence has no relationship with religion.

 

[KennyJC]

samcdkey:

What does your listing prove except that the majority of humans are easily persuaded be the fantasies of religion?

It's not easy to be rational and educated you know...

 

[KennyJC]

show me a secular society with none of the ills of a religious society.

Easy. Take a look here and have a look at the countries with high amounts of atheism.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

High levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism. In some societies, particularly Europe, atheism is growing.

We just had this discussion in another thread. Chimps hunt and murder other chimps(power); dolphins bludgeon porpoises for no apparent reason except pleasure ( sadism); cats toy with and kill animals they won't even eat and killer whales eat only the lips and tongues of the whales and then leave them to die (torture). Violence is an inherent part of nature. Animals are territorial, they kill and maim for their perceived territory; they murder their children. Human beings do all these things and more and the only difference their consciousness make sis that they think of more sadistic ways in which to do it. Violence has no relationship with religion.

Yes, but you never answered why this is characterized depending upong the strength of religious belief amongst the people searching for power.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

We can be certain that God exists because the Roman Catholic Church says so.

LOL - the biggest joke in human history. LOL

You cannot be so dumb and naive, can you?

 

[nubianconcubine]

Easy. Take a look here and have a look at the countries with high amounts of atheism.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

:bugeye: do you realize that the first six paragraphs of your proof are a disclaimer for the possible inaccuracies of the following evidence? how can you demand scientific - not theory, not assumption, but concrete-bona-fide-lab-result - evidence of religious justification and expect me to believe a report that is admittedly incomplete?
i won't even read it.

 

[Provita]

Lawdog,

LOL - the biggest joke in human history. LOL

You cannot be so dumb and naive, can you?

he can, he can

 

[S.A.M.]

Easy. Take a look here and have a look at the countries with high amounts of atheism.
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

High levels of organic atheism are strongly correlated with high levels of societal health, such as low homicide rates, low poverty rates, low infant mortality rates, and low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, and gender equality. Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism. In some societies, particularly Europe, atheism is growing.



Yes, but you never answered why this is characterized depending upong the strength of religious belief amongst the people searching for power.

Aren't you making a rather big assumption here? Are the atheists running the governments in those countries? And those countries have gone through massive extensive genocides, they have had TIME to grow, to be financially and economically viable. The other countries are still economically backward and the US has always had poor foreign policies. Have you considered that there may be as many atheists in the other countries? Are the polls that accurate? Can you be certain that the number of atheists in the ME or the US are not comparable? Due to social pressures they may not declare themselves, but numbers really do not tell the complete story, you know. You guys are in science; do you accept any evidence so easily; merely because it fits in with your notions?

 

[Oli]

Because
A ) the methodology is stated, even the possible flaws are pointed out
B ) the figures given cover a large sample of polls taken
C ) it is not presented as "incontrovertible proof"
D ) anyone can follow the methods and get their own results if they wish to dispute them
All in all a scientific undertaking that gives its conclusions and the reasoning behind them. Theists present none of the above.

i won't even read it[/i]
Wow, that was unexpected. Not.

 

[S.A.M.]

samcdkey:

What does your listing prove except that the majority of humans are easily persuaded be the fantasies of religion?

It's not easy to be rational and educated you know...

It is for me; I really couldn't speak for you

 

[Oli]

Due to social pressures they may not declare themselves

If social pressures prevent US citizens admitting they're atheist that in itself surely says something about the level of theism in the society, no?

 

[S.A.M.]

Because
A ) the methodology is stated, even the possible flaws are pointed out
B ) the figures given cover a large sample of polls taken
C ) it is not presented as "incontrovertible proof"
D ) anyone can follow the methods and get their own results if they wish to dispute them
All in all a scientific undertaking that gives its conclusions and the reasoning behind them. Theists present none of the above.

i won't even read it[/i]
Wow, that was unexpected. Not.

So you think that atheists in the middle east are going to declare themselves because the polls say so? Rather naive of you.

 

[S.A.M.]

If social pressures prevent US citizens admitting they're atheist that in itself surely says something about the level of theism in the society, no?

But the US is the country with the education and standard of living comparable to the best. Do you see people leaving in droves or arriving?

 

[Cris]

A realistic interpretation of Lawdog’s opening post.

We can be certain that God does not exist because the corrupt institution known as the Roman Catholic Church says otherwise.

No scientific evidence has ever been produced or will ever be produced to show that God exists.

Only the Church in its delusion thinks it has the right, given by ignorant corrupt politicians, to make authoritative pronouncements concerning the Christian fantasy.

The Church also correctly affirms that the human mind is capable of concluding, if evidence was available, that God exists, yet no one in human history has ever been able to show any such evidence.

However, to try and prove or disprove God from a scientific standpoint is useless since without even a tiny scrap of evidence science has absolutely nothing to consider.

The role of Science is not to be a philosophical ground, but an instrument of coming to conclusions about the physical reality. And that reality shows absolutely no evidence of gods or any need for them.

God is pure fantasy; therefore Science has absolutely nothing to consider.

 

[nubianconcubine]

Because
A ) the methodology is stated, even the possible flaws are pointed out
B ) the figures given cover a large sample of polls taken
C ) it is not presented as "incontrovertible proof"
D ) anyone can follow the methods and get their own results if they wish to dispute them
All in all a scientific undertaking that gives its conclusions and the reasoning behind them. Theists present none of the above.

i won't even read it[/i]
Wow, that was unexpected. Not.

first, let me say i admire how very clever you are. Not.
next i ask again, why should i believe it? i know two atheists that have the same problems i have. and strangely enough, they don't have your pompous attitude.
that report is a crock. bush's presence in office at this very moment is an example of how unreliable numbers can be.

 

[Oli]

Don't see anyone at all in the US from where I sit, too far away.
But from that report:

According to the 2004 Report, the five highest ranked nations in terms of total human development were Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, and the Netherlands. All five of these countries are characterized by notably high degrees of organic atheism.

the top 25 nations with the lowest infant mortality rates were all nations containing significantly high percentages of organic atheism

found that of the 40 poorest nations on earth (measured by the percentage of each nation’s population that lives on less than $1.00 a day), all but one (Vietnam) are highly religious nations

found that of the top ten nations with the highest homicide rates, all but one (United States) were highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism

And so on for literacy, gender equality, the only reversal of the "trend" appears to be suicide (religious conditioning against it maybe?), and even there the top nine are former Soviet bloc nations.

 

[S.A.M.]

Don't see anyone at all in the US from where I sit, too far away.
But from that report:




And so on for literacy, gender equality, the only reversal of the "trend" appears to be suicide (religious conditioning against it maybe?), and even there the top nine are former Soviet bloc nations.

If 80% of the world is currently thesit, if I throw 100 stones from space, what are my chances statistically speaking that I will hit an atheist.

What a crappy interpretation!

 

[Tiassa]

God is pure spirit, therefore Science can never make a certain conclusion concerning God.

Belief in God is naive at best, craven most often, and a sinister calculation at worst. Mere acceptance will do.

If the gods have determined about me and about the things which must happen to me, they have determined well, for it is not easy even to imagine a deity without forethought; and as to doing me harm, why should they have any desire towards that? For what advantage would result to them from this or to the whole, which is the special object of their providence? But if they have not determined about me individually, they have certainly determined about the whole at least, and the things which happen by way of sequence in this general arrangement I ought to accept with pleasure and to be content with them. But if they determine about nothing- which it is wicked to believe, or if we do believe it, let us neither sacrifice nor pray nor swear by them nor do anything else which we do as if the gods were present and lived with us- but if however the gods determine about none of the things which concern us, I am able to determine about myself, and I can inquire about that which is useful; and that is useful to every man which is conformable to his own constitution and nature. But my nature is rational and social; and my city and country, so far as I am Antoninus, is Rome, but so far as I am a man, it is the world. The things then which are useful to these cities are alone useful to me. Whatever happens to every man, this is for the interest of the universal: this might be sufficient. But further thou wilt observe this also as a general truth, if thou dost observe, that whatever is profitable to any man is profitable also to other men. But let the word profitable be taken here in the common sense as said of things of the middle kind, neither good nor bad.

Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations" (6.44)​

If we act with the desire to do God's work, we act to please God. If we simply are, as best and honestly as we can be, God's way is fulfilled. I disagree with Aurelius that it is hard to imagine a deity without forethought, but perhaps a hair can be split between a monotheistic source of all and a deity. Humans invent their gods, and it is a testament to the depravity of human resignation that we should invent such gods as our largest religions describe:

Religion, the dominion of the human mind .... Religion! How it dominates man's mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began.

Emma Goldman, "Anarchism: What it Really Stands For"​

We humans can do better for ourselves and the Universe around us. That we do not is a forfeiture of our potential, our faculties, the very attributes that make us human.

 

[Oli]

i know two atheists that have the same problems i have.

Problems?

and strangely enough, they don't have your pompous attitude.

A pompous attitude? Thanks. I think I'm usually referred to as "overbearing" though. Lots of people have perceptual errors when they talk to me, I get used to it.