antifreeze said:
so then, it would seem that [due to the structure of our brains] humans are the only animals to exhibit free will [if it exists]
A tiny little piece of evidence would be nice.
Wesmorris,
What indications do you get for humans displaying this ability?
"what should I do with my carreer?"
"was I mean to that person?"
"do I really understand what I think I understand?"
"man i never realized I act that way"
That kind of thing makes it pretty plain to see I think
Don't you see that you can only notice all these indications because you are a human?
You know, if there was no such thing as translators you would be saying only english speaking humans can display this ability(maybe not, but by your own logic you should).
Its so easy to analyse your own species, but because you can't communicate other species you assume their heads are empty.
Yeah I think so? Hard to say though if an alien would think in similar terms eh?
My point with the alien thing was what I just talked about.
The thing is aliens wouldn't know you were wondering what to do with your career. How could they unless they could read your mind or ask you?
Just like you wouldn't know if animals thought about and planned migrations in their head for weeks before setting off. Not saying they do, but I bet they feel like they decide to migrate or at least feel like they decide to follow their friends.
Actually I think... well, it's difficult to describe exactly what I think. Basically in the moment, we drag condensed and categorized experiences from previous moments into the moment. A pen is a pen because of your experience, you've condensed and categorized one facet of your experience into a shape in your mind and given it a name: "pen". Self is like the entire potato of those shaped experiences and how they relate to each other. Most animals simply don't have the equipment to recursively consider "self"
Again, an outside observer would not see indications for that "equipment" in humans from merely watching them behave.
I explained it as well as I could before. It's about having the choice in the moment. IMO, even choosing "heads or tails" is free will, as there is nothing confining me to either choice
Yes, there is.
Your "self" becoming what it became had nothing to do with "you". I say "you" because the "you" I'm talking about doesn't exist. Its some hypothetical magic all powerful super creature that you would be if you had free will.
You are crafted by genes and experience, we agreed on this. You seem to think your free will can shape the experience side of things.
I agree choices you can make will shape the experiences you have but you are already crafted to make whatever choices you make from genetics and previous experience that did not involve your choices. The first time you made a decision as a little baby wes(that also had a goatee, I imagine), that decision was a product of your genes and experience. And so on. You're inclined to make each decision you make for reasons you did not control. Technically nobody has any control over anything.
I control aspects of my experience and depending on my capability to exert will and well, perform... I can control a large part of my experience. I could kill myself and really exert control of my experience. It would be stupid, but I have the option if I want it.
See above.
Uhm.. depends on the scenario no? On a multiple choice test I can choose any answer right?
Follow directions above.
There would be reasons you chose whatever out of the multiple choices. If I was there saying "use your free will:smug crossed arms:" it would alter what you were going to pick, but ironically thats just another piece of stimulai guiding you to a decision, and you still wouldn't be displaying free will at all.
Perhaps then you should tell me what you mean by "true free will". I can take my mind whereever I like. IMO, that is free will. What about your idea of it? I don't think a person has to design themselves to choose between eggs or cereal for breakfast.
No offense wes but your idea of free will is very basic and there wouldn't be a single organism that can move that doesn't display it.
A cheetah decides to give up chasing if a gazelle is too far away, it made that choice, another time it might decide to chase a little further. There would be reasons for this however, like it might be extra hungry or bla bla bla but it definately feels as though its in control of its actions, like we do.
Hehe, yeah but you hate people... so can you say you don't want to take what you might deem to be positive attributes away from them? You wouldn't want to think of dirt as godlike no? Hehe..
Honestly I think my no-extra-love for humans allows me to look at them more objectively than most people.
I don't hate the human animal, its inherently on par with all other animals. When surrounded by people disrespecting other animals and overly respecting humans I feel the need to knock them down a peg.
Like in some of the race threads loitering around you'll notice people resort to white people bashing when faced with white supremacists. Thats the kind of position I feel I'm in often and to more extreme degrees.
Also as a human its instinctual for me to get angry at other humans, we're a combative tribal species. Where as animals are to be looked at as a food source, which doesn't directly imply negative connotations, in fact it never should. Most hunter and gather humans worship all animals and after killing one will pray for it and do some respectfull ritual. Its not normal to hate animals, it is normal to occassionally hate other people.
Some species hate other species, but that is because they are competing with them(lions/hyenas) or threatened by them(lions/buffalo). We aren't seriously threatened by any animal nor is any animal offering us adequate competition.
Lions don't hate buffalo, and almost seem offended when buffalo attack them.
Lions do hate other lions from other prides.
And we are similarly supposed to hate other people from outside our circle of friends and family.
I think these days people are restricted from hating people, some even believe they don't hate other people after a having a huge taboo put on the concept during their upbringing and some take it out on animals, where the law and taboo is loose.
Hrmph. Why? I don't see what the big deal is? Free will doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
I believe it doesn't seem like a big deal to you.
I think this is because you aren't looking at the whole picture, you need to step back a few paces.
Thats how it honestly seems to me.
You are saying you can choose between this and that, but you need to understand you could never really be in control of what you will choose at any given time. You've been programmed by a combination of genetics and experience to react in certain ways at certain times.
Similarly I think you are looking at the idea, that all behaviour is related to passing on genes, too litterally and simply.
No one is denying all the behaviours humans obviously display and the direct function of each behaviour.
The point is, in some way each behaviour will stem from some instinct that was crafted to assist in survival and breeding.
You know, you really could give me any imaginable example.
The suicide one had me a tiny bit flustered. But it could be something like getting people to pity you. Like that urge to make others pity you would have been a beneficial strategy to make others help you, thus increase chances of living and increase chances of breeding.
Not sure exactly but thats the kind of thing I mean.
The essence of each behaviour revolves around increasing survival or breeding chances. This is not to say each behaviour is directly aimed at getting laid. Its a little more complex than that.
