How we behave

[P. M. Thorne]

PART TWO OF TWO.........

ROSA -And then someone comes and has the nerve to call humans "the crown of creation". I am appalled.

PMT -Guess I never was called that, nor am I remembering it. Who said that silly thing anyway? Whomever has a right to think so I guess. In all seriousness, we are all in this together, animal, vegetable and mineral; we are nature, and what hurts one hurts another. There is, in truth, not only no them or us with people, but there really is no that or us in this world of events. We are fastly becoming more and more connected and affected by one another’s foolishness as well as by one another’s love. And I expect that if our energy lives on, so does the energy of each animal. I think if we could even come close to realizing what we have, and what we are, to God, through God and through his creation, we would all become pioneers and clean up our messes and the messes of those who went before us. My consolation is, (what consolation I have, that is), . . . that if no one caused any more trouble than I do, wasted no more than I do, destroyed no more than I do, this world would be in far better condition than now, and would be so going forward. That is not much, but it is mine and I am keeping it!

ROSA -That's why we need to educate ourselves in many ways, to not vote for the wrong man, or at least, after the harm being done, do all we can to get that wrong man off of his position or at least disable his undertakings as much as possible.

PMT - I think that someone is busy on that one. The truth is, this is a democracy, and many who vote do not have a clue. But, we who are all-knowing, when it comes to international crisis and political affairs in general, should certainly step forward and tell all those people in the white house and congress where they err. Then, of course, WE tell the people, and they will listen to us, realizing how smart we are, and rush right out to do their civic duty! Well, that did it. Now, you want to put a sock in my mouth, right? Just messing with you, Rosa.

ROSA: How could I disagree after you have presented it so illustratively?

PMT: Hmm. Now, where are you? (Smile)

ROSA: I hate that! I am not a box, so that I would have sides. I prefer to see myself as a ball.

PMT: Would I too, if I saw you? (Ha, ha, ha.)

ROSA: But personally, I think this non-physical work is somehow more dangerous, as demons come creeping up behind one ...

PMT - Well, I can tell you this: After working in a field ten hours, when your head hits your pillow, you do not lie awake wondering what someone meant, or planning how you will spend your next check. You go to sleep. One time after ten hours in the Del Monte Cannery (age 16), I awakened with both arms above my head, and I could not move them. My aunt Nora came and rubbed them for me, gently. She told me that I did not want to rub them too hard, because it would really hurt. Obviously, she had experienced similar things. Finally, they were normal again. That was kind of scary. What I did in the canary was grab a can off a tray, scoop up green beans, bang the can on a wooden block and set it back on the tray. There were others bringing trays of empties and taking away the full ones. I suppose the banging for ten hours upset my arms, so to speak. It was weird. My point is that I “died” when I went to bed, probably did not move much all night, but going forward I was not so inclined to have arms above my head, which had until then been my preferred way to go to sleep.

PMT -Very interesting comments about over-stimulation. It is not good for adults either. We need times of peace, of quiet, of blankness, if you will. How can we ever receive anything if we never stop talking, or never stop the noisy pictures?

ROSA -But personally, I think this non-physical work is somehow more dangerous, as demons come creeping up behind one ...

PMT …….Oh.

ROSA - Maybe. If you dress pink.


PMT - I am not too big on pink, but on occasion………….

ROSA: See, dang it, I didn't grow up on a farm.

PMT -Nor did I. You would not have the time to know how I grew up, or if I did. There were many times, however, when I was affiliated with farming people. All we had, and by we, wherever my mother dumped me, was maybe a cow, a pig, chickens …or maybe none of those, but always and forever a garden, and at my aunt Bessie’s, always flowers. Am I being too mushy, saying she had flowers. I know flowers bother you a lot. (Smile)

PMT - She and my uncle lived in a workman’s house on a dairy farm during my primary years, and theirs was my favorite place to be, because I had moved from Oklahoma with them when I was two, and they were more like parents than anyone for some years, off and on. I hated it when my mom remarried and I had to live with her, and felt guilty that I hated it, and tried really hard not to show it. I was five then, and it was never the same after that. I sure loved that hard working woman. I also lived with them between 18 and 10. Boy, could she make good cherry pies! What a cook she was, and what a pal.

ROSA: But I have a cat sleeping next to me, and I won't even try to say how beautiful that is, because it is sooooooo ...

PMT: I absolutely love cats. Mine died of cancer at 15, not long before I left Texas. Her name was Fluffy. I had lost Zeno just a few months before at age 9, with some disease from one of their danged ticks, not lyme, but something else. He was such a sweet big old doggie. It was so sad, losing them both, so glad I had Boomer already.

ROSA: Now I'm gonna switch myself into the Mona Lisa mode. Hm.

PMT: You lost me here. What?

goodnight now. pmt

 

[John Connellan]

Do you really? Hm ....

Absolutely! I told u before that u were one of my favourites

I was just upset when you said "MIGHT". See, I behave, emotionally, now think where this fits into your GSS theory.

Well I still say 'might'. I don't believe everyone is as sensitive as the person u knew. Many people can learn to forget it and it never bothers them again.

Have you ever known anyone who has been beaten as a child? I know more personally two people who were, a young woman and a young man. That girl just gets scared when some fast moving object passes her, like when we were having pizza once and the waiter had full hands, and quickly put down the plates. The expression on that girl's face. Or, with that young man, we were chatting and laughing, and at some point I did a gesture like "Hey you, you are making fun of me" and raised my hand. It was over in a matter of milliseconds, but you know how in emotionally intense moments we can see microemotions that we otherwise don't see because they are so micro, and everything seems to run in slow motion -- the boy had this ghastly expression on his face, a fear, it stung me to the heart. It must be the look he had when facing the person who was beating him. He might be ok now, but those scars that he has from his childhood are just there.

I can see that u were upset about this in the past but I cannot see how u are using it as an argument agains 'GSS' (is that the name I gave for it? I can't remember now!). I have always said that genes allow lots of higher animals to cope with changes in the environment right? Well this person beating your friend is an unusual change in the environment so she copes with it using the abnormal behaviour described above. Believe it or not, although this type of behaviour seems abnormal now that she has grown up and the threat is gone, it is actually advantageous to have considering the environment she was brought up in. Thus behaviour is still completely determined as our strive to survive and pass our genes on.

Never overestimate an "intelligent person".

Im sure I always overestimate u (in particular) in my mind

The thing is that we are vulnerable to external influences. We can get our arm bitten off, it's a damage to us, and an irrepairable one. It can be compensated to some extent, by increasing other skills. Or when deaf people learn to read lips or something like that.

Absolutely. No-one ever said we are not influenced by the environment.

But our brain is an organ too, and a vulnerable one, and it can be damaged too, and I don't mean just by physical injuries, but also by psychological injuries. These are just as serious as physical injuries.
The brain is flexible and adjustable, but we need to keep in mind that some psychological injuries to the brain can be as grave as losing your legs, at least for some time.

And to explain the behaviors connected to psychological injuries will take a more complex use of the GSS theory.

Yes damage to the brain is another extreme environmental influence and although I think brain-damaged people are still mainly controlled by their sub-consciouss urges and drives, U are probably right that the theory might need a modification to describe extremely damaged people who's behaviour may be completely unpredictable.

You make me sick.

Aww come on! She's gorgeous

 

[water]

John,

Well I still say 'might'. I don't believe everyone is as sensitive as the person u knew. Many people can learn to forget it and it never bothers them again.

Hah, yeah right. They have "forgotten" it, and this is why there are midlife crises, drug and alcohol abuse ... Duh.
It must be that you watch too much Hallmark TV -- and think that they tell true stories. Nope. Hallmark and such are one big pep talk for all those who had been through some hard times and are trying to fix the effects of it. Why do you think that that stuff sells well?!

I can see that u were upset about this in the past but I cannot see how u are using it as an argument agains 'GSS'

I am *not* using it as an argument against GSS. I was UPSET. Okay?

Thus behaviour is still completely determined as our strive to survive and pass our genes on.

John, I invite you to the "Denial of free will" thread in the General Philosphy section. Do say something about our behavior being completely determinant and that there.

“Never overestimate an "intelligent person". ”
Im sure I always overestimate u (in particular) in my mind

The worse for me then.


The thing with psychological brain injuries is this: The metabolism of the brain is set in a certain way, in accordance with environmental influences. Brains run at different paces and in different modes.

Take that young woman who had been beaten as a child, and also later, for example. Her brain metabolism became set to responses of fear when exposed to fast moving objects in hear near. That's how it runs, and in order to change her reaction to fast moving objects in her near means to change that metabolism. This cannot be done unless explicit will is applied. Whence that will?

How does the GSS apply to change of metabolism in the brain?

... describe extremely damaged people who's behaviour may be completely unpredictable.

Are you trying to make classes? And say something like: "If damage is x on the scale of AB, we apply theory 1. If the damage is y on the scale of AB, we apply theory 2." ?
How are you to draw the line between "extremely damaged" people and those who are only "lightly damaged"?

 

[John Connellan]

Hah, yeah right. They have "forgotten" it, and this is why there are midlife crises, drug and alcohol abuse ... Duh.
It must be that you watch too much Hallmark TV -- and think that they tell true stories. Nope. Hallmark and such are one big pep talk for all those who had been through some hard times and are trying to fix the effects of it. Why do you think that that stuff sells well?!

So let me see, u are saying that there peope out there who have been abused (say their parents threatened to cut off their pee-pee) and they CAN NEVER recover from it? What kind of world are YOU living in Rosa?

John, I invite you to the "Denial of free will" thread in the General Philosphy section. Do say something about our behavior being completely determinant and that there.

I'll have a look at it alright. i think I already said something there at one stage.

Take that young woman who had been beaten as a child, and also later, for example. Her brain metabolism became set to responses of fear when exposed to fast moving objects in hear near.
How does the GSS apply to change of metabolism in the brain?

Actually its more likely that neural pathways were created in her brain after the incident.

That's how it runs, and in order to change her reaction to fast moving objects in her near means to change that metabolism. This cannot be done unless explicit will is applied. Whence that will?

Are u trying to say that she is deciding herself (by free will) to react to fast moving objects? Come on Rosa pull the other one!

Are you trying to make classes?

Yes. I could imagine that our brain gets so completely damaged after some stage that we operate in a vegetative state. In this state I can imagine that the theory would break down but who knows, maybe not.

How are you to draw the line between "extremely damaged" people and those who are only "lightly damaged"?

I'll leave that to the neuroscientists.

 

[water]

So let me see, u are saying that there peope out there who have been abused (say their parents threatened to cut off their pee-pee) and they CAN NEVER recover from it? What kind of world are YOU living in Rosa?

I'm not saying that they can NEVER recover. But it must be damn hard for them to realize the damage, once their brain had been so fundamentally shaped by those early incidents.

Actually its more likely that neural pathways were created in her brain after the incident.

That's what I meant, I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way. I should stick to some simpler English.

Are u trying to say that she is deciding herself (by free will) to react to fast moving objects? Come on Rosa pull the other one!

I can't say, as what she perceives her own actions -- whether she thinks of them as actions of free will or not.
I'm even thiking that this split-up into "free will" and "instinct/unconscious" is eventually unnecessary and forced.