How is the FSM any more absurd than the Christian God?

If donkeys and horses are the ideal, does that mean cats and asparagus-loving gerbils are less so? I'm asking for...a friend.
"A friend"..

Well..

Would depend on the orifice.

Jokes aside, well it is apparently "artistic license". Apparently God is allowed that and so are authors of the Bible. But Henderson is not allowed equal license?

Because writing about how a woman craved men who were hung like donkeys and ejaculated like horses is not satire... But a serious religious text.

The line stretches further.

You're absolutely right, and I'm embarrassed for having said otherwise.
And rightly so.

Don't make me go and get the horse!

Just because those miracles don't happen today doesn't mean they weren't positively commonplace during that time.
Faith.. You gotta have it!

I mean, look at Game of Thrones. Nobody believes in the White Walkers because their stories are all from antiquity. And yet, here they are, killing wildlings by the score. See? Evidence.
Pish on your evidence!

Faith brother Dawg.. FAITH..

Or he may have been entirely serious. We read it as satire because it appears to be such.
I thought the teapot was more plausible personally.

Or The Force.. And no I do not mean Chuck Norris.

Just sayin'..
 
That's precisely the point. If we're going to say the FSM is "obviously" fake because of how absurd it is, then one can't reject the same argument when applied to God. The argument and "evidence" for God is the Bible, and the Bible is full of absurdities, such as the earth ceasing to turn (though it is portrayed from the geocentric viewpoint of the sun stopping in the sky, another glaring mark against the text), the red sea parting at command, and God communicating through a bush set ablaze (if they were hearing voices, I have to wonder just what kind of bush they were burning). These things are objectively ridiculous. You may say that they're not ridiculous because they are the inspired word of God, but then I could say the same thing about FSM.

Can't have it both ways, Geoffers.
 
We know Henderson intended it as fake. Unfortunately as a concept it remains unfalsifiable.

If it's fake right off the bat, it's falsified. Or is it even so much as falsified? I couldn't propose in a meeting that the reason the DRD7 coefficients were so funky between samples was that the Great Pink Unicorn was doing it, and then say "Naw, I'm just. Funnin' ya. Or not. Not." Admittedly, Henderson would have had a tough time against my threshold proposing anything, since he's doing it as a parody. He clearly doesn't believe any of it, and he could no more believe in unicorns or Poseidon or Dagon than he could in the FSM at the point of proposition. Still, I think it would have been a more appropriate contrast because it once had societal legitimacy; and it would have been poignant, too, for the same reason. Here yesterday, gone today.

Are we saying that we accept it as truth, or even remotely likely? No. But it remains unfalsifiable...

It's falsified by natural evidence: it was fake. Otherwise everything reduces to "this is so because I say it is". So as a concept...no. It is my position that the FSM cheapens the whole discussion. Why, to this day, I can't eat spaghetti.

Rejected by you, by me, by others as something to take seriously, as something to practically consider actually exists? Of course.

Ye-es, but we know empirically that it's a crock. Look, if I dug out the Bible faker from somewhere BC (or BCE if we absolutely must :puke:) and held him as having just invented the whole thing, then we could say that all of Abrahamism was false. This would seem to be a reasonable empirical rejection; at least of that group of religions, anyway.

Perhaps you read too much into what it means to be unfalsifiable (even if you have now learnt what it actually means)?

Interesting sort of slight: I've known exactly what it means throughout and my position hasn't changed. So what you're effectively saying is that I always did know. Thankyou for playing.

Perhaps you think that by saying that something is unfalsifiable it is to be given credence?

????

NO. Do you?

Look, the evidence is that the FSM was fake. Now, if you came up to me and said "Hey I have a new religion based on a being from an alternate universe that speaks to me inside my head, and he wants cash and strippers", I'd say well, maybe. I couldn't prove it either way; I'd be unlikely to alter school curriculum for him in any event, but I couldn't also say "Oh yeah? Well the deity I just made up says your deity is crap nyah nyah nyah" (which is the point of the OP question; the relative likelihood of deities). I can't speak to the reality of the deity supposedly in his head.

I propose FSM as official state religion in East Korea !

We brutally suppress FSMologists in East Korea. And Mormons.

It's strict ancestor worship or orthodox Myuunitarianism for us, all day, every day.

And yet he could have ACCIDENTALLY created a satire that conforms to some truth. We just don't know and have no way of knowing.

We could speculate anything, sure. But we'd have to do so honestly. If we're talking crap and we know we're talking crap, and we actually say so, then it isn't the same. In the case where we honestly believe the unprovable, then it's "your way to you and mine to me". That's NOMA. And I know that for a fact because the great Myuu told me so.
 
That's precisely the point. If we're going to say the FSM is "obviously" fake because of how absurd it is, then one can't reject the same argument when applied to God. The argument and "evidence" for God is the Bible, and the Bible is full of absurdities, such as the earth ceasing to turn (though it is portrayed from the geocentric viewpoint of the sun stopping in the sky, another glaring mark against the text), the red sea parting at command, and God communicating through a bush set ablaze (if they were hearing voices, I have to wonder just what kind of bush they were burning). These things are objectively ridiculous. You may say that they're not ridiculous because they are the inspired word of God, but then I could say the same thing about FSM.

Can't have it both ways, Geoffers.

Hate sauce lite on my SF moniker: better taste, less filling. :D Temper temper.

The FSM is absurd as a deity because the author done tol' us it were so.

Next time you want to convince me of the equal absurdity of two unevidenced propositions, don't make the mistake of having one that's made up from the get-go.
 
That's precisely the point. If we're going to say the FSM is "obviously" fake because of how absurd it is, then one can't reject the same argument when applied to God.

that is bizzare , god has a history , fsm is created on a whim as a comparison




The argument and "evidence" for God is the Bible, and the Bible is full of absurdities, such as the earth ceasing to turn (though it is portrayed from the geocentric viewpoint of the sun stopping in the sky, another glaring mark against the text), the red sea parting at command, and God communicating through a bush set ablaze (if they were hearing voices, I have to wonder just what kind of bush they were burning). These things are objectively ridiculous. You may say that they're not ridiculous because they are the inspired word of God, but then I could say the same thing about FSM. Can't have it both ways, Geoffers.

look using the bible as an argument against god can be at times seem unreasonable

but the bible is not where we should be looking for evidence of god
 
that is bizzare , god has a history ,

Because you are told so. Primarily from a book that also contains passages of men hung like donkeys, etc.

If the situation were reversed, lets say the Bible, were to be released today. Would you believe it? Or would you view it as satire?

fsm is created on a whim as a comparison
You don't think God was created on a similar whim?

Ancient Egyptians venerated their Pharaohs as God's. Are they just as whimsical? Absurd?

We have evidence and proof that they were treated as Gods. But they are not Gods, correct? And yet, many believed they were Gods.

So why should we believe the biblical God is "God"? We, unlike with the Pharaoh's, have no proof that he existed then or now. We are just told to.

It is absurd.



look using the bible as an argument against god can be at times seem unreasonable
The Bible was so ridiculous that they had to write a new one to make it more lovey dovey and more palatable to people. That to me reeks of made up stories. And yet, it is somehow less absurd than Henderson's book?

You think using the Bible as an argument against God can be unreasonable. So you don't think God exists either?

What is the Bible then? Satire? Artistic license?

Just a good paper-weight?

but the bible is not where we should be looking for evidence of god
And where would that be pray tell?

The same place one could look for evidence of FSM?
 
“ Originally Posted by river
that is bizzare , god has a history , ”

Because you are told so. Primarily from a book that also contains passages of men hung like donkeys, etc.

If the situation were reversed, lets say the Bible, were to be released today. Would you believe it? Or would you view it as satire?

well put it this way I have never read the bible , but I'm thinking of doing so now

not because I believe in god , but because there is more in there than we know about our Ancient past
 
The FSM is absurd as a deity because the author done tol' us it were so.

No, he didn't. He's never said it's fake. In fact, he makes claims to the contrary. That's the point, Geoffrey of Chaucer! It's our word against his, and his claims are unfalsifiable. You don't "know" it's fake any more than we "know" Christianity is fake. You simply assume it's fake based on the absurdity of the claims...just like we do about Christianity!

Next time you want to convince me of the equal absurdity of two unevidenced propositions, don't make the mistake of having one that's made up from the get-go.

They're both made up from the get-go.
 
fsm is created on a whim as a comparison ”

You don't think God was created on a similar whim?

far from it

Ancient Egyptians venerated their Pharaohs as God's. Are they just as whimsical? Absurd?

Ra was a god , literally

We have evidence and proof that they were treated as Gods. But they are not Gods, correct? And yet, many believed they were Gods.

treated as gods because the Pharaohs were the go between , god and the people

So why should we believe the biblical God is "God"? We, unlike with the Pharaoh's, have no proof that he existed then or now. We are just told to

It is absurd.

look you have to back even further than Egyptian history
 
look using the bible as an argument against god can be at times seem unreasonable ”

The Bible was so ridiculous that they had to write a new one to make it more lovey dovey and more palatable to people. That to me reeks of made up stories. And yet, it is somehow less absurd than Henderson's book?

You think using the Bible as an argument against God can be unreasonable. So you don't think God exists either?

What is the Bible then? Satire? Artistic license?

Just a good paper-weight?

what I have learned from my reading so far , is that , the bible is really the condencing of Ancient History

before the bible , there were gods , not monotheism that the bible presents
 
No, he didn't. He's never said it's fake. In fact, he makes claims to the contrary. That's the point, Geoffrey of Chaucer! It's our word against his, and his claims are unfalsifiable. You don't "know" it's fake any more than we "know" Christianity is fake. You simply assume it's fake based on the absurdity of the claims...just like we do about Christianity!



They're both made up from the get-go.
Do you want to stand by that statement or do you want to pretend that you didn't make it as you scurry back behind a weaker stance of atheism?
 
Do you want to stand by that statement or do you want to pretend that you didn't make it as you scurry back behind a weaker stance of atheism?

My stance has always been that the monotheistic religions are scams, rackets, and lies. I've never said otherwise, and I've said exactly that many times. You misrepresent me when you suggest otherwise.

As to the atheism bit, I can only assume you're going to assert your own incorrect definition of the concept? Just like Wynn and Jan? The Holy Trinity, as it were.
 
My stance has always been that the monotheistic religions are scams, rackets, and lies.

agreed

and they never encourage these christians to dig deeper into what was behind all this monotheism

because if they did christianity would fall flat
 
“ Originally Posted by river
agreed

and they never encourage these christians to dig deeper into what was behind all this monotheism

because if they did christianity would fall flat


No it wouldn't.

it should though

a quote from the book " The Stairway to Heaven " of The Earth Chronicles series by Zecharia Sitchin, pg117 ;

" Let it be clarified here that neither the Akkadians nor the Sumerians had called these visitors to Earth gods. It is through later paganism that the notion of devine beings or gods has filtered into our language and thinking. When we employ the term here , it is only because of its general acceptance and usage that we do so"
 
If it's fake right off the bat, it's falsified.
Then prove it is false... that the FSM categorically and absolutely does not exist... that the FSM did not plant the seed of His existence into the head of Henderson, such that Henderson wrote it out as though he was merely arriving at a concept, the FSM knowing that in 2,000 years His will be the dominant religion.
Prove it.

Oh, right... you're bringing to the table evidence that actually fits in with the allowed observations of the claim (that the FSM exists), and thus not actually falsifying it.

But you know what it means for something to be falsifiable. Clearly. I mean, it's not as though you have spent the last FSM-knows how many posts in this thread demonstrating the exact opposite.
But you say you are familiar with the concept, through your work. So therefore you must be believed.
Or is that an Appeal to Authority? Oh, yes, it is. My mistake.
Let's just judge peoples' understanding on how they use it - and in that you are found woefully lacking.



It's falsified by natural evidence: it was fake.
Nope. The evidence you have so far brought to the table (i.e. that Henderson appears to have made up the concept) can only point to what Henderson thinks about the situation - not about the reality of the situation.
Henderson does not define reality.

Otherwise everything reduces to "this is so because I say it is". So as a concept...no.
No it doesn't. That is what you are insisting upon with your belief that "Henderson says it is false therefore it is false".
Henderson can not falsify the FSM - he can only say what he considers the situation to be.

It is my position that the FSM cheapens the whole discussion. Why, to this day, I can't eat spaghetti.
Irrelevant to the issue.
Falsifiability is not governed by whether it cheapens a discussion.

Ye-es, but we know empirically that it's a crock.
Nope. As above.
Look, if I dug out the Bible faker from somewhere BC (or BCE if we absolutely must :puke:) and held him as having just invented the whole thing, then we could say that all of Abrahamism was false.
No we couldn't. Unless there are observations that actually falsify (i.e. fall outside) the results expected by the concept. Someone believing and claiming to have made it up is not outside the scope of results expected by the concept.
This would seem to be a reasonable empirical rejection; at least of that group of religions, anyway.
But this is a matter of belief and what one considers reasonable or not to believe. That is a separate issue entirely to whether a concept is, at its core, falsifiable.
You would know this if you knew what it meant for a concept / theory / claim to be falsifiable or not.
Interesting sort of slight: I've known exactly what it means throughout and my position hasn't changed. So what you're effectively saying is that I always did know.
Then your position, for as long as it has remained unchanged, is wrong. This is not a question of subjectivity. You simply do not adequately understand what it means for a concept/theory/claim to be falsifiable or not.
NO. Do you?
No - but I couldn't be sure from the way you seem to misunderstand the concept of falsifiability. So was just checking.
Look, the evidence is that the FSM was fake.
The evidence is that Henderson arrived at a concept of the FSM to argue a point.
There is simply no evidence that the FSM categorically does not exist. The same way that there is simply no evidence that any other unfalsifiable concept does not exist.

If you think otherwise, just start with what should be the relatively simple task of proving that the FSM did not plant the seed of the idea of His existence in the head of Henderson and guided his thoughts to the concept of the FSM.

Now, if you came up to me and said "Hey I have a new religion based on a being from an alternate universe that speaks to me inside my head, and he wants cash and strippers", I'd say well, maybe. I couldn't prove it either way; I'd be unlikely to alter school curriculum for him in any event, but I couldn't also say "Oh yeah? Well the deity I just made up says your deity is crap nyah nyah nyah" (which is the point of the OP question; the relative likelihood of deities). I can't speak to the reality of the deity supposedly in his head.
Nor can you speak to the reality of the deity that Henderson supposedly made up:

If the FSM does not exist we would expect Henderson to say that he made the concept up.

But ir the FSM does exist and planted the seed in Henderson's head then we might still expect Henderson to say that he made the concept up.

From this we can show that the observation of Henderson saying he made it up does NOT falsify the concept - as the same observation would be expected whether the FSM existed or not.
I.e. the FSM is an unfalsifiable concept.
Period.
Live with it.
And for the sake of everyone else here... please go and learn what it means for something to be falsifiable. Please. You keep saying you do. And I want to believe that you do. But you constantly remind everyone that you don't.
 
No, he didn't. He's never said it's fake. In fact, he makes claims to the contrary. That's the point, Geoffrey of Chaucer! It's our word against his, and his claims are unfalsifiable.

Noo, they aren't. He wrote the thing as a tongue-in-cheek response, and you know he did, and I know he did. Wasn't it you accusing me of intellectual dishonesty a few posts back? For shame, doc. Huntin' elephants with a rabbit gun.

You don't "know" it's fake any more than we "know" Christianity is fake. You simply assume it's fake based on the absurdity of the claims...just like we do about Christianity!

No, I gather that it's a load of hoo-haw from his initial invention and submission and, you know, reality. I'm going to borrow from Tiassa here: c'mon, seriously now. As for its claims, I have only the scantest knowledge and even less interest, because the initial premise was fallacious. I know this. You know this.

Look, I'd be happy really pretend that it's all one and just go along with the get-along gang on this one. It would save time. Unfortunately, much as I love sarcasm, I can't get my ticket for the crazy train punched. Maybe it's that mean thing I said about Ozzy back in '89. Maybe he really didn't know the bat was fake. Maybe. How could I possibly prove that he really thought a real, hairy, struggling bat was actually a rubber bat? How shall I tell in practice the difference between shit and sugar? It is a mystery.

They're both made up from the get-go.

Well, I know the FSM is, at least. If you have some evidence of the other, that would actually be a debate, or something. Although, I have to tell you, I don't know how you're going to swing something as powerfully con as having made the thing up right off the bat. But whatever.
 
it should though

a quote from the book " The Stairway to Heaven " of The Earth Chronicles series by Zecharia Sitchin, pg117 ;

" Let it be clarified here that neither the Akkadians nor the Sumerians had called these visitors to Earth gods. It is through later paganism that the notion of devine beings or gods has filtered into our language and thinking. When we employ the term here , it is only because of its general acceptance and usage that we do so"

Note that this is your last Zecharia Sitchin reference before going on my ignore list. Congratulations, and goodbye forever!
 
My stance has always been that the monotheistic religions are scams, rackets, and lies. I've never said otherwise, and I've said exactly that many times. You misrepresent me when you suggest otherwise.

Whoops. Cat's out of the bag, there.
 
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