How is faith in God attained?

[SnakeLord]

I'll say this though, if I had a disease in which I felt incredible physical pain or discomfort every second of every day, I could see how God would make some exceptions.

From a religious standpoint you'd be wrong.

god created that disease with the express purpose of causing you that pain and suffering. As the religious will tell you, he gives you that disease in order to test you, to test your faith in him. No, he doesn't remove the disease or affliction but at least when you die you don't get re-inflicted. If you kill yourself you ultimately fail his test and then burn because of it.

So at the end of the day it seems to be a case of: suffer in this life or suffer in the next. Either way god will make you suffer.

 

[nds1]

From a religious standpoint you'd be wrong.

god created that disease with the express purpose of causing you that pain and suffering. As the religious will tell you, he gives you that disease in order to test you, to test your faith in him. No, he doesn't remove the disease or affliction but at least when you die you don't get re-inflicted. If you kill yourself you ultimately fail his test and then burn because of it.

So at the end of the day it seems to be a case of: suffer in this life or suffer in the next. Either way god will make you suffer.

Unless your David, LOL.

 

[Adstar]

I realize that the "bad" people, or descdendants of Cain, went to this spiritual prison.

You make it seem that a persons eternal destination is dependant on their ancestry. Saying that descendants of Cain must be "bad" people. I don't know if this is a doctrine you picked up in your weird church or you got it from somewhere else but it is wrong. One can be a descendant in spirit of Cain meaning that a person has Cains attitude to God. Just as one can be a spiritual descendant of Abraham sharing His attitude to God.

But "bad" or "disobedient" people doesn't include Noah, meaning Noah and his family did not go the prison. They were "saved."

Well the lives of Noahs family is not fully recorded in scriptures so we do not know. But even if they sought to follow the will of God they where still not saved until Jesus atoned for their sins because no one can be saved without a Savoir and Jesus is the Only Savoir. This does not mean that people who had the right spirit towards the will of God had to spend the time between their deaths and the atonement of Jesus in hell. Read the parable of Lazarus told by Jesus to find out where those who sought to follow the will of God spent their time.

Did Noah and family accept Jesus as their personal savior? Nope. So explain to me how Noah became saved.

Noah was not saved until he accepted the atonement provided by Jesus.

Also, this verse includes people before Noah. I am talking about people after Noah and before Jesus.

Well i cannot provide any scripture dealing with people between the time of Noah and Jesus but i believe the same procedure would be offered to all those who who did not get a chance to accept the atoning act of Jesus. It does not matter when they lived.

It is referring to the descendents of Cain. I am referring to the descendents of Abel.

Again Spiritual descendants not genetic descendants.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar, we agree that there are three types of thoughts or actions of a person:

1) Postive - responding to a specific task God orders you to do

2) Neutral - A thought or action which God is not concerned about (where to buy milk, 2 + 2 - 6 x 8 =, which physcial road to take, etc.)

3) Negative - A thought or action which displeases God (stealing, committing adultery, murdering, etc.)

Now if someone commits a Negative Action, then it seems that no matter how bad that negative action is they can be forgiven if they repent.

Is there a negative action or an amount of negative actions someone could commit which could ban them from heaven no matter how much they repented, or does simply believing in Jesus erase every sin?

There is only One negative action that bans one from eternity with God no matter how much they repent and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. All other sins are forgiven through faith in the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

In other words, to reject the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin.

 

[Adstar]

Yeah, I heard about the suicide thing too. I'll say this though, if I had a disease in which I felt incredible physical pain or discomfort every second of every day, I could see how God would make some exceptions.

I believe a person can be forgiven of suicide. Suicide is self murder and murder is a sin. And Murder is forgiven through the atonement of Jesus.

What we need is to form a Uniform Sin Code which lays out what is a sin, what isn't, and what is neither a sin or a positive action.

Well what is needed is guidance on the matter and a willingness to follow that guidance.

On the issue of Commiting Adultery, Murder, and Stealing your neighbor's wife, there would have to be a David Clause:

Article 3

§ 1-104. The David Clause

(a) One can commit adultery and steal their neighbor's wife, along with killing that neighbor as a result of the pregnancy of the neighbor's wife, as long as that person repents and is really sorry.

LOL imagine the size of the book if we had to write it all down. Isn't David fortunate that God is so forgiving. It should give great hope to all those out there who have committed serious sins and feel they cannot be forgiven. Trusting in the forgiveness of God give us the strength to forgive others and allows us to forgive ourselves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

In other words, to reject the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin.

No. To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. People have during their lives resisted the conviction of the Holy Spirit but in the end turned from their rejection.

Jesus revealed what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was when the scribes declared that the signs that Jesus performed where done by the power of the ruler of demons. They had called the Holy Spirit beelzebub.

Mark 3
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”

They had just comitted the unforgivable sin.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nds1]

You make it seem that a persons eternal destination is dependant on their ancestry...

Wow I could have sworn I found a verse that said just that and now I can't find it. That is weird. I'll keep looking.

Noah was not saved until he accepted the atonement provided by Jesus.

So from Adam's generation to Noah's generation, it didn't matter how anyone lived their lives on the earth? If you were an atheist before Noah you simply die and go to this prison/purgatory type deal for a second chance to be preached to by Jesus? This seems a little unfair.

Question: When Noah died, where exactly did he go?

Adstar's Answer: Read the parable of Lazarus told by Jesus to find out where those who sought to follow the will of God spent their time.

Ahhhhhh, so when Noah died, you are saying that he went into Abraham's chest? Great, that issue is settled.

Oh wait, that's right: Abraham didn't even exist for another couple of centuries later after Noah's death. So how could Noah dwell in Abraham's chest after death when Abraham didn't even exist yet?

So we are back to the question of: Where did Noah go when he died? Did he go to heaven? Probably not. The NT talks of people going into a dormant sleep mode until the return of Jesus and the day of Judgement when they will rise from the dead.

Could Noah have gone into some kind of dormant state? Or did he go to some kind of spiritual interogation room in which he was asked whether he accepted Jesus as his personal saviour?

The real question though, is how did you "not go to hell" during the time of Noah? Because being "saved" in Abel and Noahs day meant simply believing in God and doing his will. No Jesus was involved. If you believed in God and did God's will, you did not go to hell and were saved from hell, regardless of whether or not you had to later accept the Message of Jesus.

 

[nds1]

LOL imagine the size of the book if we had to write it all down.

Well we better get started then.

The Uniform Christian Code
by NDS, Adstar, and IAC (aka "GOOGLE IT")

Article 1

§ 1-1. How to go to heaven and not burn in the Lake of Fire for eternity

(a) You must attain faith that a God exists. You attain faith in God by having faith in a God.

(b) You must hear from someone or something that Jesus died for your sins and atoned you and all of mankind from all their sins.

(c) You must believe the message in (b). The basis for this belief is the "greatness" or "awesomeness" of the message.

(d) You must not blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

(e) For Evangilists you must meet your quota of how many people you saved each year.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

That's fairly good nds1, congratulations, you're becoming a real master.

 

[NDS]

That's fairly good nds1, congratulations, you're becoming a real master.

We need to get this U.C.C. up on sciwikipedia.

 

[ashura]

First the personal attacks, and then forgetting to reply to my post. I'm starting to think Adstar doesn't like me. :bawl:

 

[Adstar]

Wow I could have sworn I found a verse that said just that and now I can't find it. That is weird. I'll keep looking.

You might have read a verse that you interpreted to mean genetic decendants but that it not the message of the bible. Paul also talked of the decendants of Abraham being the ones who would be saved. But he was talking about those who where decendants of Abraham in Spirit. People with the same faith/trust in God.

So from Adam's generation to Noah's generation, it didn't matter how anyone lived their lives on the earth? If you were an atheist before Noah you simply die and go to this prison/purgatory type deal for a second chance to be preached to by Jesus? This seems a little unfair.

Question: When Noah died, where exactly did he go?

Adstar's Answer: Read the parable of Lazarus told by Jesus to find out where those who sought to follow the will of God spent their time.

Ahhhhhh, so when Noah died, you are saying that he went into Abraham's chest? Great, that issue is settled.

Oh wait, that's right: Abraham didn't even exist for another couple of centuries later after Noah's death. So how could Noah dwell in Abraham's chest after death when Abraham didn't even exist yet?

Wow nds1 your sharp. I am genuinly impressed (no sarcasim injected).

I imediately went to my Bible and read the parrable when i read your reply to read it again. You know i think your observation has caused me to read the portion of scripture without the old tradition blindness of my past. lets read what it says:

Luke 16
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

Jesus never said the place was called Abraham’s bosom it says that Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom as to say that Lazarus was with Abraham and being cuddled with His head on Abraham’s chest. His bosom. It’s just that i was taught and i had no reason (until the present moment) to question that the place was called Abraham’s bosom.

Read this scripture from the book of Samuel

2 Samuel 12:
3 But the poor man had nothing, except one little ewe lamb which he had bought and nourished; and it grew up together with him and with his children. It ate of his own food and drank from his own cup and lay in his bosom; and it was like a daughter to him.

Isn't it amazing nds1 that this scripture from Samuel is a part of the story of David’s sins with the wife of the man He killed. A topic we have been discussing already in this thread.

And here is another scripture, this one of prophecy of the end times:

Micah 7
4 The best of them is like a brier;
The most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge;
The day of your watchman and your punishment comes;
Now shall be their perplexity.
5 Do not trust in a friend;
Do not put your confidence in a companion;
Guard the doors of your mouth
From her who lies in your bosom.
6 For son dishonors father,
Daughter rises against her mother,
Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
A man’s enemies are the men of his own household.

The prophet Micah is talking about ones wife here not a place.


Thank you nds1 you have helped me grow in knowledge. This has been a profitable discussion indeed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Hello Nds

I was so excited about the Abraham's bosom thing that i did not deal with the rest of your post:

So we are back to the question of: Where did Noah go when he died? Did he go to heaven? Probably not. The NT talks of people going into a dormant sleep mode until the return of Jesus and the day of Judgement when they will rise from the dead.

I suppose Noah went to the same place Abraham and Lazarus went to. But again i do not know where Noah ended up.

Could Noah have gone into some kind of dormant state? Or did he go to some kind of spiritual interogation room in which he was asked whether he accepted Jesus as his personal saviour?

"Spiritual interrogation room"??? You have a colourful way with words nds1

He could have gone into a dormant state but why would he be in a dormant state when Abraham was not in a dormant state.

The real question though, is how did you "not go to hell" during the time of Noah? Because being "saved" in Abel and Noahs day meant simply believing in God and doing his will. No Jesus was involved. If you believed in God and did God's will, you did not go to hell and were saved from hell, regardless of whether or not you had to later accept the Message of Jesus.

I suppose you had to be in rebellion against the Will of God. Maybe if one never knew what the will of God was then it cannot be said that one had rejected the will of God??? Then again many say that God has given men of the times before Noah a conscience to guide them. Maybe if one rebelled against their conscience then they would be sent to hell???

If you didn't notice Nds1, i am asking the same questions here that you are asking, i look forward to knowing the answers one day.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Well we better get started then.

The Uniform Christian Code
by NDS, Adstar, and IAC (aka "GOOGLE IT")

Article 1

§ 1-1. How to go to heaven and not burn in the Lake of Fire for eternity

(a) You must attain faith that a God exists. You attain faith in God by having faith in a God.

Hummm All people will discover that God exists NDS1 either in this life or after they transfer to the next state of existence.

(b) You must hear from someone or something that Jesus died for your sins and atoned you and all of mankind from all their sins.


(c) You must believe the message in (b). The basis for this belief is the "greatness" or "awesomeness" of the message.

Yep you could have combined these points into one but yeah they are right.

(d) You must not blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

True

(e) For Evangilists you must meet your quota of how many people you saved each year.

Where did you get this one from NDS1 ? Certainly not from me. You will have to delete this one from the list. Firstly no human being ever causes another person to believe and accept the Messiah Jesus. That is the action of the Holy Spirit and the agreement of the one who hears the Message.

If i thought that my salvation was dependant on me causing another person to accept the Messiah Jesus as their Redeemer then i would indeed live in sickening fear for my salvation. I thank God my salvation is not dependant on my abilities.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

Firstly no human being ever causes another person to believe and accept the Messiah Jesus.

I wish the bastards that keep knocking on my door were aware of that :bugeye: Or some of the people that frequent this forum for that matter.

 

[NDS]

Where did you get this one from NDS1 ? Certainly not from me. You will have to delete this one from the list. Firstly no human being ever causes another person to believe and accept the Messiah Jesus. That is the action of the Holy Spirit and the agreement of the one who hears the Message.

If i thought that my salvation was dependant on me causing another person to accept the Messiah Jesus as their Redeemer then i would indeed live in sickening fear for my salvation. I thank God my salvation is not dependant on my abilities.

LOL. No I didn't get it from you, IAC, or any Christian on this site (besides AmeriEagle). You all do not preach, you argue which I have a lot of respect for. Only AmerEagle has come here to preach apparently. I wouldn't attach you to one these aggrecious extremist religious sects, Adstar. Some them are so occult it is almost funny, but it isn't.

I actually thought of the Evangilist Clause from this guy I know who used to be a "Born Again" Evangilist. He told me that in his church everyone had a quota for saving people each year. He said that he saved so many people one year that people started calling him "The Closer." HAHAHAHAHA. You have to admit, that is pretty funny. "The Closer." I couldn't stop laughing. This guy ended up leaving that church, which was a smart move.

 

[nds1]

Oh, by the way, I changed my username to NDS instead of nds1. Not sure why I put the 1 there in the first place.

 

[SkinWalker]

Hummm All people will discover that God exists NDS1 either in this life or after they transfer to the next state of existence.

Do you know this with empirical certainty or are you just making confidence statements (to borrow an ad hominem insult from our friend Lightgigantic)? And which god, by the way? Yours is Yahweh isn't it? What if the god at the top turns out to be a Polynesian one? Or a West African one? Maybe its one that nobody worships any more. Wouldn't that be a surprise if you die and find out the right god was Ptah or Quetzlcoatl all along? The "ancient of days," indeed!

 

[Adstar]

Do you know this with empirical certainty or are you just making confidence statements (to borrow an ad hominem insult from our friend Lightgigantic)? And which god, by the way? Yours is Yahweh isn't it? What if the god at the top turns out to be a Polynesian one? Or a West African one? Maybe its one that nobody worships any more. Wouldn't that be a surprise if you die and find out the right god was Ptah or Quetzlcoatl all along? The "ancient of days," indeed!

You add nothing to the discussion SkinWalker, Nothing at all. Maybe that’s why you send warnings to me about posts threatening me. That’s the only way you think you can have an effect. Using your moderating powers to persecute.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days