How harmful is religion?

what a cool indoctrination!

I am really enjoying this! This is the first thread I ever started, and it's really blossomed and gone on without becoming a total digression. Neato!

Recently, JDawg and ectropic have been deliberating the difference between vengence, righteousness, and poor behavior, while Medicine Woman has been making metaphysical assertions about the nature of love and human existence as it applies to the perception of self, others, and God.

In Medicine's Woman's comments lie the seeds of my original impetus to pose the question.

The harm religion does, IMHO, is that it gives false hope, false logic, and false status to people who really need to fall flat on their face, spiritually. Instead of seeing the truth and beauty of existence and all its possibilities, these devout are doomed to spend their lives in persecution and fear. Any person who will accept the bible as true must be spiritually.. (insert euphamism). The bible is so angry, so hateful, so violent, and so judgemental AGAINST human beings that it must be dismissed in order for spirituality to begin. There is so much to experience in the secular realities of human tolerance, forgiveness, understanding, and loss.....and it takes a lifetime to learn just a little of it. THERE ARE REAL REASONS FOR DOING BEAUTIFUL THINGS EVERY DAY!!!! Unfortunately, fear and memorization aren't the reasons. The bible offers none of them. "Thou shalt not" is no different than "Just say No". Ultimatums and one-dimensional reasons are NOT explanations. The bible is incapable of teaching anyone anything meaningful, because it dismisses the worthiness of the individual COMPLETELY.

Who florishes in that environment? No wonder the devout are so exasperating to talk to. Their spiritual life has not yet begun! They have accepted a universe that judges them, threatens them, and encourages them to hate themselves, their actions, and the actions of others. YIKES! So OF COURSE we keep fighting wars. Of course force and brutality are the pinnacles of human acheivement in the 21st century, the most respected form of energy. Automation across the board.

Just look what people are reading every Sunday. When they fall to their knees, how do they feel? Why are they kneeling in the first place? Humility? Humility is tolerance, not damnation. They kneel in fear and nepotism. "You can treat me like shit, just don't damn me!"

I honestly believe that religion is to humanity what a meteor was to the dinosaurs. It's our Achilles heel, our fatal flaw. Look around, tell me I'm wrong. Godloving warmongers knocking on my door in support of.....whatever their told. I just hope the cockroaches find a way to love and accept one another in 3003.
 
bible is so angry, so hateful, so violent, and so judgemental AGAINST human beings that it must be dismissed in order for spirituality to begin.
Click to expand...
Have you even read the bible? Jesus' final commandment is "love your brother as I have loved you." Aren't you judging religious people? A bit judgemental for a hypocrit.

THERE ARE REAL REASONS FOR DOING BEAUTIFUL THINGS EVERY DAY!!!!
Click to expand...
Here's your chance. Explain why I should give to the poor?
 
Here's your chance. Explain why I should give to the poor?
Click to expand...

Are you saying that you only give to the poor becuase it says so in the Bible? Because I give to the poor to help the poor. Damn, dude...it hadn't been that obvious until now, but you are really a person who needs something in return for doing right. Maybe that's why the Bible was written the way it was...because the authors were afraid that without some sort of damnation for not doing good, and some sort of reward for doing right, humans would simply not do right!

A very interesting twist in the personal biography of Okinrus.

JD
 
What about the problem that you will never be able to give enough to help the poor? Sure, "you can't change the world but you can make a dent" and so on... it's all true. But ultimately you are not reaching the starving people in Sudan, or the millions of victims of the Congolese war. You can give someone fish, you can even help people fish for themselves, but you can't provide them with fish if the factor that makes the rubber tires for your car have made them inedible, and overfishing has made them extinct. When you go to Somalia on a UN truck filled with food, and you look into those starving eyes, you'll they are looking for hope, not just food. You can do beautiful things and dance among the flowers all you want, it is a false spirituality.

I once gave a man food, and he came back asking for money, I gave him money and he came back for more, I gave him more, and when he came back again, I realized that he was looking for hope... and that he had become dependant on me for hope. When I die, his hope for any more will die with me.

On my own, I am just a drop in the bucket, one among millions of well-meaning people since time began... but if if I can give them the same hope I have, of living water that does not dry up even when I'm dying of thirst.

John 4
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
 
Yes, religion definately has a significant negative side

Religions have definately murdered in millions over the milennia.

Romans harrassed and kille din thousands of early Christians due to their faith.

Islam has consumed most of N. Africa an the Middle east, as well as a sizeable portion of Asia, and has killed and enslaved millions of humans of different beliefs. There have been numerous pogroms of Christians in Turkey during the thousand year long Islamic occupation of the country, and today a minority og ~1% coptian and orthodox Christians remain.

During the dark ages, non-moslems in islamic occupied states had to pay taxes to keep their own faith to themselves, and often had to give their children to military brothels, as well.

The Christian crusades are seen as a atrocity by many, but in fact, they were a reaction to the Islamic occupation of what is now Israel and Turkey.

http://www.mrdowling.com/606islam.html

The inquisition (in response to the Luterian and Calvinian reformation) and with burnings (etc) were much worse than the crusades.

While chistianity today has moderated since the inquisitions in the middle ages, the catholic church is responsible for ~1e9 people worldwide finding it unwishful for use of contraception (condoms) per popal decree.

But I dont think that you have to have a deity to be religious - believe in an absolute system of morality or such can be just as religious. My best example is the former USSR and other communist states. The interesting thing is that traditional religious practice was outlawed in the Sovet Union (St Basils Cathedral in Moscow - a beautiful piece of architecture, by the way) was closed and came close twice to demolition during the Stalin years.

Anyway, my point is that in the USSR and most other communist regimes, traditional religious practice is outlawed and replaced with what is essentially Communist religious practise, with the Icons of Marx, Engels and Lenin - and some madmen even "worship" Stalin, the worst mass murderer in human history.

In short, this modern abomination of an ideology, has cost in excess of 180 million people their lives over the past century. Not even Christianity and Islam together can top that.

My 2 cents.
 
Are you saying that you only give to the poor becuase it says so in the Bible? Because I give to the poor to help the poor. Damn, dude...it hadn't been that obvious until now, but you are really a person who needs something in return for doing right. Maybe that's why the Bible was written the way it was...because the authors were afraid that without some sort of damnation for not doing good, and some sort of reward for doing right, humans would simply not do right!
Click to expand...
No, I didn't even say that I give to the poor. You will have to answer why you help the poor. I don't see any rational reason to help the poor. In fact it would only make me poorer and throw a wrench in natural evolution.
 
Helping the poor

Originally posted by EvilPoet
okinrus,

How does helping the poor make you poorer?
Click to expand...

My belief is this: When you see a person on the street with a sign that says "will work for food," I think we all know that he's hungry for booze--at least that's the way it is here in the big city of Houston, TX. They're on every street corner. Yet--even though I know they will use my gift of a dollar or two to go buy alcohol, and even though this is enabling their addiction, and all--the act of 'giving' is spiritually healing. When I act by giving alms, regardless of how the alms would be used (to concern oneself with how alms are used would be judgmental), this act of kindness reflects on my own soul and helps to build it. It is better to give than to receive. 'Giv'ing is like for'give'ness. We all need to give and receive forgiveness in this world. It brings God nearer to you (i.e. it builds the God-Spirit within you). You will receive so much more than what you give. Receiving is a one-way street. Giving circles the block and comes back.
 
evolution?

Here's your chance. Explain why I should give to the poor?
Click to expand...

There are many kinds of poverty, and we all suffer from at least one of them. I'm tired of picking on you, Okinrus, so I won't explain the impoverished mindset that your question betrays in you. Medicine Woman nails it. The reason to alleviate anyone else's poverty is purely selfish : it feels good. There are other, more devious motives for philanthropy, but as I see it, when the expected return is anything more than a good feeling, that's not charity, that's manipulation. Charity is like a drug: it's there when you need it. We all walk by suffering every day, but when we need a lift, we can stop and help. BTW Med. Woman, try buying them a burger or a burrito next time. They won't refuse it. All that protein and vitamins just might give them their first moment of clarity in a while, and that could lead to.....

Personally, I'm on a crusade to rid the world of sexual poverty;) :eek: :p

I don't see any rational reason to help the poor. In fact it would only make me poorer and throw a wrench in natural evolution.
Click to expand...

Ahhhh....the fruits of a life lived on the knees. What beautiful music it makes!
 
Feeding the impoverished

Originally posted by filibuster

BTW Med. Woman, try buying them a burger or a burrito next time. They won't refuse it. All that protein and vitamins just might give them their first moment of clarity in a while, and that could lead to.....
Click to expand...

filibuster, once I was on my way home going through the city where there was a homeless person looking in trash cans for what I thought was something to eat. It was the holiday season, and I had a tray of food left over from a Xmas party at work. When I saw him foraging through the trash, I offered him this large platter of food that he could have shared with his homeless buddies. The guy took the platter and dumped it into the trash can without eating anything! It was almost as if he didn't even know what to do with it! There are so many people around here literally at every street corner with signs that say "will work for food." Yet, all of them seem to be quite well-fed! I find it hard to give to some beggars on the street when they have their ears plugged with CD players! But I try not to judge anyone. The act of giving unconditionally is healing.
 
hmmm...

I find it hard to give to some beggars on the street when they have their ears plugged with CD players! But I try not to judge anyone. The act of giving unconditionally is healing.
Click to expand...

I understand two things here. First, that person hurt your feelings by taking your platter. It was a mistake to give him a platter. Whoppers are wrapped in useless paper. Second, you yourself are caught up in the accumulation of material things, as am I, and so you begrudge a beggar a frivilous item like a personal CD player. Instead, be grateful to him for being willing to live the way he does. Would you really prefer a world where everyone had an apartment and a computer? He's shattering paradigms in his own time.
 
Re: hmmm...

Originally posted by filibuster
I understand two things here. First, that person hurt your feelings by taking your platter. It was a mistake to give him a platter. Whoppers are wrapped in useless paper. Second, you yourself are caught up in the accumulation of material things, as am I, and so you begrudge a beggar a frivilous item like a personal CD player. Instead, be grateful to him for being willing to live the way he does. Would you really prefer a world where everyone had an apartment and a computer? He's shattering paradigms in his own time.
Click to expand...

No, that person did not hurt my 'feelings.' It was a disposable platter that I didn't even care about. I was more 'hurt' that he didn't want the food! I was 'hurt' too, that other homeless people couldn't benefit from my gift. I'm not really a materialistic person by nature, but I don't begrudge anyone for their material possessions. I made this comment because some people beg for 'food' even though their priorities (or needs) seem to be backward. If anyone told me they were hungry, I would feed them or see that they were fed. If I give them money and they go out and buy a pack of cigarettes, it is not for me to judge what they do with the money. My concern for the homeless person who tossed the platter of food was that at the stage of substance abuse that this man was in, food wasn't what was desired--his only desire was for more substance. As a person who cares about the human race, the 'hurt' I felt was when I grieved for him.
 
Originally posted by JDawg
There is nothing sinful about a homosexual act, pal. Homosexuals are born with that disposition, much in the same way some people have tendancies to prefer children sexually. It's not something someone just decides one day; same-sex attraction is as natural to a homosexual as opposite-sex attraction is to a heterosexual. You're born that way. I must admit, I like the way you tried to save yourself there, saying the homosexual "Act" is a mortal sin, as opposed to just being homosexual in itself. But you're backwards in your thinking there as well: Heterosexuals who take a vow of abstanence for life--or until marriage--do so out of free will and usually a strong bond with the god of their choosing. They don't ask that everyone else does it, nor do they condemn others for not following suit. This is usually why life-long abstanence is reserved for men of the cloth. To say a homosexual act is sinful, then you would be asking people of that persuasion to act like priests, and give up their right to choose for themselves. To expect every homosexual to supress that natural desire is oppresive and logically retarded.
JD
Click to expand...

Abraham Maslow developed what he called A Hierarchy of Needs.
The human being has certain needs in descending order of the need:

First, we need air. Without air, only for a short period of time, we would die.

Second, we need water. We can live about 3 days without water.

Third, we need food. We can live a couple of weeks without food.

Fourth, we need sex. When sex is repressed (i.e. celibacy, etc.), it will reemerge in the form of a perversion (i.e. molestation by Catholic priests, etc.). This has NOTHING to do with whom we're naturally attracted to! Every human being has sexual needs. God created us as sexual beings, with both male and female hormones, and who we are attracted to is a natural part of that sexuality. Sex in and of itself is healthy, physically and spiritually. People live longer when they have an active sex life. An active sex life relieves stress in one's life, builds the immune system, releases endorphins and oxytocin in the brain which gives one an overall good feeling. In men with active sex lives, there is less prostatitis and prostate cancer! What is sexually attractive to consenting adults in private when they enjoy each other's bodies should not be judged by anyone. Sex enriches the soul.
 
Medicine Woman nails it. The reason to alleviate anyone else's poverty is purely selfish : it feels good. There are other, more devious motives for philanthropy, but as I see it, when the expected return is anything more than a good feeling, that's not charity, that's manipulation. Charity is like a drug: it's there when you need it. We all walk by suffering every day, but when we need a lift, we can stop and help. BTW Med. Woman, try buying them a burger or a burrito next time. They won't refuse it. All that protein and vitamins just might give them their first moment of clarity in a while, and that could lead to.....
Click to expand...
Ok that's seem similar to God. "The reason to believe in God is purely selfish: it feels good". Perhaps it may be necessary to give to imaginary friends to produce the same feeling. Both are just as absurd, but your logic rejects only one.
 
I just assumed it was the platter because he threw away the food in the first place. Now, if you actually communicated with the guy, and he told you he wanted the food, then threw it away, he was just being an angry asshole. Maybe he really needed to hurt someone. I guess you gave him something he wanted after all.

I'm glad your charitable, secular, and tolerant. It's a great package to have.

I agree – we are a product of nature, and not some supernatural omnipotent being. But rather then calling nature a god, why not just call it "nature?"
Click to expand...

There are a lot of people out there in a dubious relationship of convenience with some God, but also aware of other realities and not dismissive of them. Maybe the best way to rid of the G word in the long run is to use it when one of these people is trying to place new ideas into their heirarchy.
 
Okinrus, you are amazing. First you invoke humility that must not be allowed end, then you preach the evolutionary value of uncharitable behavior, and now

Perhaps it may be necessary to give to imaginary friends to produce the same feeling. Both are just as absurd, but your logic rejects only one.
Click to expand...

Imaginary friend! Bwahahahaha. You are either one very silly, clever, and coy devil's advocate, or you love the taste of your toes. Which is it?

I think I'm on to you. Your a man of God but you fear nothingness more than hell itsellf, believe in evolution, practice miserly behavior, and spurn anyone with imaginary friends. Got it.

You also cannot tell the differnence between a 99 cent burger and your ability to perceive reality.

Both are just as absurd, but your logic rejects only one.
Click to expand...

Since giving either one away for personal pleasure is equally absurd in your eyes.
 
Imaginary friend! Bwahahahaha. You are either one very silly, clever, and coy devil's advocate, or you love the taste of your toes. Which is it?
Click to expand...
I have eaten with Satan. Yes, he likes to cast lots on your garments and divide your clothing. That's the real reason why M*W is wrong about sex.

I think I'm on to you. Your a man of God but you fear nothingness more than hell itsellf, believe in evolution, practice miserly behavior, and spurn anyone with imaginary friends. Got it.
Click to expand...
Have you heard of the force of nothingness? http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=3248 This same force of nothingness is what is really causing the Universe to expand. Yes I believe in evolution in so far as our physical body was created. I didn't say I was miserly, only that it is irrational to give to the poor. When did I spurn anyone believing in imaginary friends? I have spoken to a few but haven't really had a full conversation.
 
Wrong about sex, eh?

Originally posted by okinrus
I have eaten with Satan. Yes, he likes to cast lots on your garments and divide your clothing. That's the real reason why M*W is wrong about sex.
Click to expand...

So you are saying here that the Devil makes them (homosexuals) do it? Right? Sorry, but I don't understand what the hell you're trying to say. I notice there have been some comments directed to you, okinrus, saying that you rely far too heavily on Biblical scripture and you have no imagination to make comments on your own. Well, I see you have tried to say something original here, but from what I've read that you've posted tells me that you are a brainwashed geek who is sexually repressed and may be sexually perverted. There will come a time in our bioevolution when heterosexuality will be perverse. If sex is so bad, why did God and/or evolution make us sexual beings?
 
So you are saying here that the Devil makes them (homosexuals) do it? Right? Sorry, but I don't understand what the hell you're trying to say.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure where you get the impression that I'm condemning people. I ate easter dinner with two homosexuals. Two very nice people. It just happens that I consider homosexuality a sin along with many other things.

I notice there have been some comments directed to you, okinrus, saying that you rely far too heavily on Biblical scripture and you have no imagination to make comments on your own.
Click to expand...
Mozart had plenty of imagination while only using a few notes. Usually I won't use bibical scripture unless if I think that it's a generally held belief.

Well, I see you have tried to say something original here, but from what I've read that you've posted tells me that you are a brainwashed geek who is sexually repressed
and may be sexually perverted. There will come a time in our bioevolution when heterosexuality will be perverse.
Click to expand...
No, I'm just far removed from your society of false light. There is no possibility that I could ever relate with you woman anyways.

If sex is so bad, why did God and/or evolution make us sexual beings?
Click to expand...
Where did I say that sex was bad?
 
I have said this before, but even if it is selfish it says a lot more about an atheist when he gives to the poor than it says about "Good God Fearing Fold".

I only give money to bums that do something for me. One time I was hanging around outside my office building by myself at lunch. I started a conversation with a man who was there and obviously homeless. He suggested some books (Which I never jotted down so I can't remember them now) and told me some stories about his life. I bummed him a couple of cigarettes, and when I had to go in I walked inside with him and bought him lunch and thanked him. Another time I asked a hobo to dance or something if he wanted to earn some of my money. He did some sort of drunken jig so I payed up.

No one gives me money for the asking. Why should a guy who is drunk all day deserve my money for nothing? Don't tell me I should feel sorry for him because he likes the sauce either.

I do donate to a few charities every year though, and I take part in the little charity drives at work when they come around (Easter baskets for kids in battered women's shelters, can drives...) But it feels wrong to give away something for nothing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top