How far is too far?
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So that is your god? you just pick and choose what you care to?
More whining, make with concrete examples already.
What do you fear so much about having standards even for your god?
Consider: The things that you seem to find so heinous about God - what are they about? 'Henious things' like killing people, sending plagues, punishing disobedience. These things affect the body, the mind, emotions, possessions.
And if you identify with the body, the mind, emotions, possessions, then, when these get hurt, you feel hurt - and conclude that God must be heinous.
But where do the body, the mind, emotions, possessions actually come from?
I am situated within the folds of a particular discipline, but I am not so myopic that I can't see a similarity within other disciplines.
Kind of like I may be fluent in english and practically dumbfounded in mandarin, but I can still recognize universal issues of grammar
I think you missed the point
The idea of "all other gods being false" is another wild card commonly played by fideism (which seems to be where all your bones of contention are pointed).
If its any concession, I also agree that the notion of god being a religious fanatic is absurd.
Similarities like calling each other's gods false, or do you only pick the similarities you like?
Who said "other?" But what do you care? Use your gods and your obviously superior religion.
See we have this in common. Can I presume that if you found god was a religious fanatic this would give you pause?
I don't find anything heinous in god. No god = no heinous.
These are just things commonly ascribed to god which people generally claim to find heinous, and yet they fail to censure these actions when they are attributed to god.
and the "soul" and one's family and society. What about it? What else is there?
Hurting people, especially in most grievous manners and without any or little provocation would generally be associate with being heinous.
If I take a cig and start burning your eye with it do you really care where your eye "comes from?"
actually I determine similarities by establishing what is a primary detail (as distinct from a secondary one).
Now might be a good time to let roll with a few of these apparent dis-similarities so we can see how you go about picking them.
erm ....you
If you are willing to exclude other religions and gods
something that henological discussion brings to the table (much to the disdain of fideism .... and atheists who have a world view built around the ridicule of fideism) is the idea that there is only one religion : devotion to god
many of the claims of fideism give rise to the opportunity for pause ....
If your carpet was, you wouldn't have a problem with a herd of camels in your lounge room?Your carpet is ScotchGuarded?
Kind of telling of your novel philosophical approach the way you attribute determining primary from secondary principles as a recipe for disaster ...Nice way to say believers don't know wtf is going on
You started this thread with:
so don't give me your evasion technique.
And I am telling you one reason why they don't: Because they do not identify with their bodies, thoughts, emotions or possessions, but instead see them as provided and ultimately owned by God.
That's thinking that the causes for an action are the ones you prefer to focus on.
Yes.
If I were to think my eye is mine, of my creation and under my control, then I'd be really hurt and bewildered by your action.
Nothing evasive. I was trying to work in your idiom because I'm interested in your thoughts on the matter. Personally I don't think imaginary beings and be credited with actual qualities so god is neither virtuous nor heinous. Its just a concept.
So the slaughter by god of countless innocent children is ok because god gave them life? So if a parent murders a child that's ok by you since the parent gave them life?
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that grievous injury and death from little or no provocation is ok by you?
I strongly suspect that no matter if you think the eye is yours, of your creation and under your control, or if you don't; either way you will scream in pain and be hurt and bewildered having a cig burn "your" eye. In fact I bet as the cig approaches you will have no doubt whose eye is being threatened.
Heart rate will increase, you'll perspire, adrenaline levels will rise, you'll instinctively attempt to protect the eye or move it away...the mouth speaks many bullshits, but the body knows itself.
So you cherry pick to reinforce what you want to believe. No problem. Most religious people do.
actually I said: If you are willing to exclude other religions and gods as false, that's fine with me.
If you aren't that's cool too, but I wasn't requiring you to consider every one else's whacky false religion, just your own. Of course if you claim they are all true, then you get to consider them as well.
That's in part what is being questioned here. Are you a cowardly, mindless drone who is so spineless that you cannot question your god no matter how heinous it becomes?
You seem to be just that sort of person. Congradulations. Your fideism is complete and unquestioning.
God allowed certain things to happen in the Bible that seemed horrific but justifiable. This is the reason God set forth laws in the Bible, such as the ten commandments. What it all boils down to is God is proving a point. He's God and there is no other. Kind of like a parent and his/her children. I would probably, in some cases, give my child instruction that may seem obsurb in some peoples eyes. But when in fact I'm just simply letting that child no that I'm his/her father and there is no other like me.
Then, based on your logic and claims, you must be giving your child all lessons from the bible:
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)"
So, do you teach your children these "justifiable" lessons from the bible?
Yes the point is your god is evil and you are a fool. Please take your drek else where.
You are either a parody of a believer or such a fool as to be uninteresting.
There is the suggestion that for humans, karma - the law of action and reaction - is what gets them to be killed (that is: their bodies get killed), sometimes in horrible ways.
There is also the suggestion that there is reincarnation - that we are not born 'innocent', but bear a karmic burden from our previous lifetimes.
The analogy doesn't work. A parent doesn't give their child life, nor does a parent have full control over a child's life. (For example, the child can be taken away from the parent by illness, death, kidnapping, social services.)
I am saying that there is no such thing as 'grievous injury and death from little or no provocation'. The 'provocation' is significant, accumulated in this and previous lifetimes.
I think that to you, this is what it would look like, yes, and you would simply insist in your interpretation.
The Breaker
Registered Member
Completely agree. While I myself am an atheist, I have never understood why atheists ask the kind of questions that the OP is asking. To christians, god can never do "evil", what he does is always correct. You may think these acts are heinous, and I may agree with you, but we have to remember that good and evil are relative terms.
I have never understood why people don't understand asking questions.
Yes, anything & everything can be claimed to be good depending on 1's beliefs.
Yes, anything & everything can be claimed to be good depending on 1's beliefs.
The Breaker
Registered Member
Perhaps I worded that poorly. I do understand why atheists ask these questions, ignorance. If their was proof that their was a god and you would go to hell if you didn't worship him, you wouldn't do it because of some misplaced sense of self righteousness? If you agree that anything can be claimed depending on one's beliefs, than surely you can see the silliness in a question such as the one asked by the OP.