How do you talk to someone who believes...

not necessarily, for instance; not killing people. it seems like the basis for this is the commandment "thou shalt not murder." however, imagine a society where everyone killed everyone else. doesn't seem very nice, eh? that is what hobbes, locke, montesquieu, and all those dead guys from the enlightenment liked to chat about in their "salons". and that is where american laws stem from, "natural" rights.
 
I dont understand what you are trying to point out. Homocide takes place in many cultures, look at the eskimos who kill off their young and elderly. Mainly becuase food is scarce and if they tried to feed the elderly and very young (who dont participate in the collection of food) they would starve themselves. So homocide is accepted in some cultures. All our basic laws stem from religion. However culture varys and so do religions-- proving that people dont come up with ethics and morals out of common sense but through belief or nessecity.
 
Morals and ethics were human traits before religion. They are part of our basic makeup as social animals. Its a fallacy that morality come from religion. If anything, religion comes from morality. It is a primitive social contract.
 
then how do u explain the differences in cultures??? If your ideals held true everyone would have the same underline morals! And as we all no this is false!!!!
 
What I mean is, among primitive tribes(pre-and modern human without religion) the only way to stay alive was to become the alpha male-and even that didnt secure your life. Religion can be traces many many years before civilization.
 
okay, so even in your eskimo example, i would argue that the reason for said act is the survival of the greatest number or the community as a whole. where is the religious basis?
 
I see what you are getting at antifreeze. This is what I will go with now.....First comes the needs of a social group--this need is recognized--then is adopted as a standard ---these standards are preserved through a ideal such as religion. These standards vary from culture to culture.
 
religions vary, and there are laws based directly on religious dogma [e.g. retail businesses closed on sunday], i tend to think of them as part of the "face" of culture. each is distinct and recognizable, but underneath the main issue is the survival of said social group.

::anyone remember what this thread was about, by the way?::
 
then how do u explain the differences in cultures???
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Just like that, cultural differences. Different cultures have different moralities and ethics, therefore the religions are based on different moralities and ethics. This is getting into the whole chicken and the egg scenario, but it's obvious that the egg came first. The moralities in the cultures are the egg, religion is the chicken.



edit: Of course, this is one of the fatal flaws of religion. When they were made, they incorporated the morals and values of the day into them. As time has gone on and people's cultures changed, the various religions don't catch up. This causes dichotomies in the morals and ethics in the religious texts and the morals and ethics of the culture at large. Most religionists get around this by just ignoring those passages which push a moral view that they don't share.
 
Bloody hell. Here I was thinking now one would reply but BAM! Cheers guys!

Lemme get some of my answers in....

TheERK said:
Focus on the flat Earth part. Maybe he'll realize he isn't right about everything once you convince him that the Earth is spherical.
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I have tried to explain this to him, tried to tell him why one of the most Christian countries on the Earth wants to disprove the fact that the Earth is round. And he claims that early pictures of Earth from space are fakes. And my return is 'How did they make them? They didn't have the technology to make something that accurate back then' but still...

Insanely Elite said:
Why are you interested in him? Why do you care what he thinks or believes?
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Because he does seem like a really good person and we're often put into situations where I have no other choice but to talk to him (college classroom).

SouthStar - Bugger if I know how to do those weird S's said:
And I'm curious about this "information that would turn any Christian to the otherside". Maybe is this sort of heresy and arrogance that "endears" you to him?
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Just my own personal beliefs, scientific and social evidence and a lot of ammo I got from fighting in this forum a year or so ago.

Katazia said:
His mind isn't open to reason so any reasoned argument will fail on him so it is a waste of time trying. In this case you cannot win.

Simply smile inwardly with the satisfaction of your own valid position and very politely ignore him. If he has any semblance of rational ability then he might eventually discover his errors for himself.
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This appears to be the only way I can win, enjoy the satisfaction that I have an open mind and take into account various ideas and evidence thrown at me. But I only set out to win when he brings it up, I never bring up the subject.

Katazia + Invert_Nexus said:
bashing your head against a brick wall
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Sometimes I feel like bashing his head against the wall. Maybe something will get knocked into him.

antifreeze said:
i suggest you both sign a pact, stating that he will not try to convert you and you will not try to convert him. mutual non-aggression. if that doesn't work, the brick wall is always an option.
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I have already politly requested that he doesn't try and convert me nor that he doesn't bring up religion. But as it is his main way of life and his reason for being we find it hard to talk about cars, boobs or computer games :(

darktr00per said:
We need some sort of ethical/moral structure. We get this from influences such as religions. Now days you can see how morals have dropped due to lack of religion. We seem to have replaced it with money.
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I have brought this up. I said to him that religion formed the basis of law back then and also it is quite possible that that was religions main goal. Bringing order out of chaos - you just have to insight a little fear to get your way. But no, this is impossible to him because it was not written. Gah!

And the rest of the thread you guys just argue about eskimos and other make believe creatures so I'll stop here ;)
 
Perhaps it's best to simply respect his mindset and let it go. If and when challenged, deal with the specific argument and note that the evidence is insufficiently compelling to warrant belief.
 
Thor, are you familiar with the concept of triage? Doctors in war have to break casualties into three categories - those who will probably survive, even without treatment, those will probably die, even with treatment, and those for whom treatment will make a difference. Doing a little intellectual triage on this guy, he's a misologist, not receptive to other arguments, and hence, not really worth your time.
 
Katazia said:
SouthStar,

Religion, since it concludes from the outset that a god did it. Science makes no conclusions until it has evidence.

Hence science and religion are opposites as is science vs creationism.

Kat
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Have you heard of the ICR, per chance?
 
SouthStar,

Have you heard of the ICR, per chance?
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Yes, and their opening sentence on their web page describing the tenets of Creationism is -

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein... Rev 10:6 "For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day..." Exodus 20:11

http://www.icr.org/abouticr/tenets.htm

There really was no point reading further since that is a statement of religion and the basis for their perspective. That is clearly not science.

However, their first tenet states –

The physical universe of space, time, matter, and energy has not always existed, but was supernaturally created by a transcendent personal Creator who alone has existed from eternity.

Again this has nothing to do with science.

Kat
 
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