How do you feel about guns?

[phlogistician]

Actually I do not report failed attempts. If a crimanal fails to enter my house he has commited no crime. If a man fails to mug me becuase he sees the outline of my handgun, he has commited no crime.

Then you are not a reponsible citizen. Attempted crimes are still crimes, and by preventing one, all you do is change the victim; the bad guy still needs money for drugs or whatever, so will keep trying until they get it.

If you don't report attempted crimes to the Police, they can't remove the guy from society. You are fuelling crime with your actions, don't you see that?

But this I think is telling. You are not confident that these people do actually have malicious intent, so don't report it to the Police, fearful that might identify you to the Police as the guy who has been complained about for flashing his gun around at normal citizens. If you were sure you were right, you'd have no reason not to report all of this stuff.

 

[Oniw17]

Then you are not a reponsible citizen. Attempted crimes are still crimes, and by preventing one, all you do is change the victim; the bad guy still needs money for drugs or whatever, so will keep trying until they get it. [/quote
Why is that any of your business? If it doesn't involve you, don't get involved.

If you don't report attempted crimes to the Police, they can't remove the guy from society. You are fuelling crime with your actions, don't you see that?

And? Not your problem. It would seem kind of dishonest if you did say something.

But this I think is telling. You are not confident that these people do actually have malicious intent, so don't report it to the Police, fearful that might identify you to the Police as the guy who has been complained about for flashing his gun around at normal citizens. If you were sure you were right, you'd have no reason not to report all of this stuff.

You have no reason to report any of it either.

 

[phlogistician]

Why is that any of your business? If it doesn't involve you, don't get involved.

We live in civilised societies, and have responsibilities as citizens. One, is to report crimes. Attempted crimes are still crimes, and we must report them, so the offender can be brought to justice, and prevented from succeeding in further crimes.

Why is it my business? You really are stupid, aren't you? Someone tries robbing me, and I defend myself from their attempt. Later, maybe it's my girlfriend walking down the same street, and the same assailant is there. Maybe she gets mugged or worse by this guy. But you think I should do nothing and let people I care for, and even people I've never met run the risk of becoming a victim, when I could prevent that? You disgust me!

And? Not your problem. It would seem kind of dishonest if you did say something.

Honesty is reporting what you experience to the relevant authorities. While not saying anything is effectively being complicit in the assailants future crimes. What the hell do you know about honesty therefore?

You have no reason to report any of it either.

For the reasons stated above, yes I do. It's what good citizens do. Only assholes turn their backs and let criminals get away with their acts. So you would let them get away, and you are stupid. I won't join up the dots for you, but you know what I'm saying.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why is that any of your business? If it doesn't involve you, don't get involved.

And? Not your problem. It would seem kind of dishonest if you did say something.

You have no reason to report any of it either.

Haven't you seen Spiderman?

 

[Oniw17]

We live in civilised societies, and have responsibilities as citizens. One, is to report crimes. Attempted crimes are still crimes, and we must report them, so the offender can be brought to justice, and prevented from succeeding in further crimes.

Why? How doe any of that affect me? Nobody's going to fuck up robbing my house, or pussy out of robbing me on the street, and then come try to rob me again. Why worry about anyone else, do you really think they're worried about me?

Why is it my business? You really are stupid, aren't you?

That's not nice.

Someone tries robbing me, and I defend myself from their attempt. Later, maybe it's my girlfriend walking down the same street, and the same assailant is there. Maybe she gets mugged or worse by this guy. But you think I should do nothing and let people I care for, and even people I've never met run the risk of becoming a victim, when I could prevent that? You disgust me!

You really think that reporting one person to the police(who they probably won't find), and spending hours out of your day filling out reports is going to make any difference at all whether somebody who you know get's mugged walking down the street? Your naivete discusts me.

Honesty is reporting what you experience to the relevant authorities. While not saying anything is effectively being complicit in the assailants future crimes. What the hell do you know about honesty therefore?

It's not disshonest to report a crime that never happened? What is it then?

For the reasons stated above, yes I do. It's what good citizens do. Only assholes turn their backs and let criminals get away with their acts.

There was no crime commited, you prevented it, so you're not letting get away with anything.

So you would let them get away

Get away with what? Nothing happened, I stopped it. If you're asking would I let them keep their freedom over a crime that never happened, yes.

and you are stupid.

Ok, Mr. Genius, tell me one thing that Wang Fuzhi believed.

I won't join up the dots for you, but you know what I'm saying.

You're saying that you don't believe in second chances? You've never done something, or even attempted and failed to do something wrong and got away with it? I find that hard to believe. You've never robbed anyone in your life? Ever?

Haven't you seen Spiderman?

That never happens in real life,at least I've never heard of it.

 

[Baron Max]

Honesty is reporting what you experience to the relevant authorities. While not saying anything is effectively being complicit in the assailants future crimes.

Unless you know the assailant, or can recognize him, reporting it to the police will do no good whatsoever. If you think so, then you live in a foolish dreamworld!

Attempted crimes are still crimes, and we must report them, so the offender can be brought to justice, and prevented from succeeding in further crimes.

And just how are the cops gonna' find and arrest the assailant? How many cops do you think there are in a city of any size at all? ...and you think all they have to do is drive around seeking some "attempted assailant"?? Wow, you don't know much about police work, do you?

We live in civilised societies, ...

No we don't!! If we did, then there'd be no assailants and/or criminals to bother us, would there?

...and have responsibilities as citizens.

Yes, to protect ourselves, our families and our neighbors/friends. And to do so, we must arm ourselves for that possibility. Yet you want to take our guns from us ...to leave us defenseless in the face of criminal acts. Thanks a lot!!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

That never happens in real life,at least I've never heard of it.

Unreported criminals do not commit further crimes??

 

[phlogistician]

Why worry about anyone else, do you really think they're worried about me?

You have a serious case of low self esteem my dear child. Maybe you don't think you're worth helping, but a good citizen such as myself would step in to stop you taking a beating, get you an ambulance, and try and detain your attackers. Why? Because that's what civilised people, in civilised societies do.

That's not nice.

That you aren't clever isn't nice, I can fully understand.

You really think that reporting one person to the police(who they probably won't find), and spending hours out of your day filling out reports is going to make any difference at all whether somebody who you know get's mugged walking down the street? Your naivete discusts me.

Yes it makes a difference, because I have done it and seen people arrested. Your apathy disgusts me. Or maybe it's not apathy, you're just too scared to wade in? Yes, fear, I think, is your downfall.

It's not disshonest to report a crime that never happened? What is it then?

Again you choose to show your ignorance. Attempted robbery IS A CRIME. Someone trying to rob you is breaking the law. Damn, you really are stupid.

There was no crime commited, you prevented it, so you're not letting get away with anything.

Listen child, attempting to rob someone is illegal. It's not just OK if you fight them off, and they give up. Why don't you grasp this?

Ok, Mr. Genius, tell me one thing that Wang Fuzhi believed.

Oh, so you think you know one thing that you think I cannot answer, and that proves what? Nothing. That you have run out of arguments, cannot prove your point, and seek to take the debate on a tangent. Stick to the point, if you want to discuss Wang Fuzhi, start a thread.

You've never done something, or even attempted and failed to do something wrong and got away with it? I find that hard to believe. You've never robbed anyone in your life? Ever?

Do you understand the term 'rob'? Somehow, I think not. Probably because you are stupid. I'll educate you;

"Main Entry: rob
Pronunciation: 'räb
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): robbed; rob·bing

1 a (1) : to take something away from by force : steal from (2) : to take personal property from by violence or threat b (1) : to remove valuables without right from (a place) (2) : to take the contents of (a receptacle) c : to take away as loot : STEAL <rob jewelry>
2 a : to deprive of something due, expected, or desired b : to withhold unjustly or injuriously
intransitive verb : to commit robbery" (www.m-w.com)

So, to answer your question, have I ever offered to, or enacted violence on someone to take their property from them? No, I haven't, don't be stupid.

 

[phlogistician]

Max, you live in some frontier style self prservationist dream world, you really do. No wonder you think you gave up having sex, that's your ego covering up the fact that nobody wants to sleep with someone so selfish as you.

Also Max, I have reported people to the cops and they have been arrested. The system works, and to make it work, you have to put a little effort in. The system will never work if you never try to make it work, don't you understand that? Also, because the system isn't perfect, dosn't mean it doesn't work, that is absurd. But then you can only make absurd arguments.

 

[Baron Max]

Also Max, I have reported people to the cops and they have been arrested. The system works, and to make it work, you have to put a little effort in.

It works ONLY if you know the assailant ...and that's exactly what I said. If you report, "It was a big black man with a gun." then what the fuck can the police do ....arrest every big black man on the planet???!!!!!

Max, you live in some frontier style self prservationist dream world, you really do.

And you live in a world where you expect others to provide protection for you and your family and friends, while you do nothing to protect yourself! And worse, you expect me to take that same attitude! Fuck you!

Baron Max

 

[Oniw17]

You have a serious case of low self esteem my dear child. Maybe you don't think you're worth helping, but a good citizen such as myself would step in to stop you taking a beating, get you an ambulance, and try and detain your attackers. Why? Because that's what civilised people, in civilised societies do.

That's what stupid people do. I could've deserved that beating, and now you're getting beat too.

Yes it makes a difference, because I have done it and seen people arrested.

Really? What if I told you I don't believe you?

Your apathy disgusts me. Or maybe it's not apathy, you're just too scared to wade in? Yes, fear, I think, is your downfall.

Fear of what exactly?

Again you choose to show your ignorance. Attempted robbery IS A CRIME. Someone trying to rob you is breaking the law.

Not IMO. You can say "it's the law," but that doesn't mean anything except that you can't think for yourself.

Damn, you really are stupid.

Because?

Listen child, attempting to rob someone is illegal.

So?

It's not just OK if you fight them off, and they give up. Why don't you grasp this?

Because I don't believe it.

Oh, so you think you know one thing that you think I cannot answer, and that proves what? Nothing. That you have run out of arguments, cannot prove your point, and seek to take the debate on a tangent. Stick to the point, if you want to discuss Wang Fuzhi, start a thread.

You called me stupid because you don't agree with me, don't you think that's a little irrelevent to the conversation?

Do you understand the term 'rob'?

Yes, I do. You kick in someone's door hold a gun up to them(sometimes even a fake gun), and someone else comes in and takes their TV, jewelry, and money. Usually with someone else watching the door. What's your point?

Somehow, I think not.

Why?

Probably because you are stupid.

You seem persistent with that thought. Any particular reason? Posibly because you've run out of arguments, as you've accused me?

I'll educate you;

Right.

"Main Entry: rob
Pronunciation: 'räb
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): robbed; rob·bing

1 a (1) : to take something away from by force : steal from (2) : to take personal property from by violence or threat b (1) : to remove valuables without right from (a place) (2) : to take the contents of (a receptacle) c : to take away as loot : STEAL <rob jewelry>
2 a : to deprive of something due, expected, or desired b : to withhold unjustly or injuriously
intransitive verb : to commit robbery" (www.m-w.com)

So?

So, to answer your question, have I ever offered to, or enacted violence on someone to take their property from them? No, I haven't, don't be stupid.

Why am I stupid this time?

 

[phlogistician]

Oniw17, you are too stupid to bother with any more. I refer you to the other thread. 'Asking stupid questions is stupid' and that's all you have done in your reply, questioning things needlessly.

 

[Oniw17]

I don't see how, but OK.

 

[James R]

TW Scott:

Actually my own brother is not much more likely to shoot anyone, after all he was never concieved, lol.

That was a generic "you", not a specific "you". Obviously I don't know anything about your particularly family cirumstances. Replace "brother" with "wife" or "child" or "friend" or whatever, and my statement still holds.

Actually that 80% factors into the fact that for that 80% they iassume that a person knows everyone in their home town if it is less than 5,000 and if the town is bigger that 5 grand that you know everyone in a 12 block radius, minimum.

I don't know which NRA pamphlet you got this from. It's really not worth my effort to spend time debunking it right now.

What, are you fucking kidding me? If he wants my wallet he can learn to be a pick pocket and get it without alerting me. A mugger wnats the thrill of seeing you scared, then it slipps to the high cuased by beating you and finally it keeps getting worse and worse.

This just confirms what I keep saying: you have a set of irrational fears.

People don't generally go around victimising people and bashing them for no reason other than fun. Muggers usually mug people for money. Violence, if any, is incidental to their main aim.

I was taught to shoot to kill too, if I had to. Of course I would try crippling first, just like every good cop does.

If cops shoot, they are usually taught to shoot to kill, not to incapacitate, like I said.

Which is not surprising becuase obviously you should not have one.

I could get a gun very quickly if I needed or wanted one. I don't need one, and I don't want one.

Hey, I've seen where people have died from five mile an hour baseballs.

And I'm sure it happened at close quarters with an attacker trying to bludgeon them with the baseball.

It is proven that areas that have more gun control and gun bans are more prone to violent crime and htier crime rate rises faster. They also still have an over abundance of gun crime. Meanwhile areas with lax guncontrol laws and 'Shall issue' statutes have lower overall violent crime rates and much lower gun crime rates, as well as crime loss.

I'm sure we could play off your NRA stats against some of mine, but I'm really not interested at this point, TW Scott.

 

[TW Scott]

That was a generic "you", not a specific "you". Obviously I don't know anything about your particularly family cirumstances. Replace "brother" with "wife" or "child" or "friend" or whatever, and my statement still holds.

Was just making a point that you would barely know shit after taking one.

I don't know which NRA pamphlet you got this from. It's really not worth my effort to spend time debunking it right now.

Actually it directly taken from the studies that make the claim. The CDC openly admitted it was part of the parameters of the study.

This just confirms what I keep saying: you have a set of irrational fears.

People don't generally go around victimising people and bashing them for no reason other than fun. Muggers usually mug people for money. Violence, if any, is incidental to their main aim.

What dreamchip world do you live in. Of course money is the first priority in mugging, but don't forget they chose violent mugging over non confrontational pickpocketing. that says something right there.

If cops shoot, they are usually taught to shoot to kill, not to incapacitate, like I said.

No, they are taught to take down a assailant with the least amount of force and damage. I have three cousins on police forces. They are taught to be capable of klilling, but to use there discretion. Assailant holding a gun shoot to kill. Assailant holding a melee weapon, shoot to incapacitate if you think it is prudent.

I could get a gun very quickly if I needed or wanted one. I don't need one, and I don't want one.

Illegally I am sure, but there is no way you could pass any sort of testing procedure.

And I'm sure it happened at close quarters with an attacker trying to bludgeon them with the baseball.

Actually friendly games of catch to tell the absolute truth.

I'm sure we could play off your NRA stats against some of mine, but I'm really not interested at this point, TW Scott.

Acutally my stats come from independant sources and in most cases I take what is presented for the benefit of Gun Control and show the real statistics and how they twist it. So much more fun to hoist them by their own petard.

 

[Tiassa]

Criminals will disobey all of the gun laws that you could fashion. If we were to remove guns from the entire planet, the criminals would still have them!

Criminals will disobey whatever laws they choose. By logic similar to your assertion, what's the point of having any laws other than to "target the good guys"?

And since you raised the idea of "targeting the good guys", we come once again to what constitutes a "good guy".

I know a chronic liar who threatens violence whenever she doesn't get her way, gets drunk because it's what her daughter deserves, and thinks philosophical objections to stealing oppress her. Yet she would consider herself "one of the good people".

Similarly, it is worth reminding that I've mentioned examples of people who consider themselves "responsible gun owners" (e.g. "good guys") who behave irresponsibly, sometimes atrociously and even criminally. Your appeal to a vague standard (e.g. "good guys") is simply another attempt to duck the issue of what constitutes responsible handling of designed lethal force.

And, hey, considering the proportion of guns used by criminals that were stolen or otherwise obtained from "non-criminals", we might consider two possibilities. Either ...

(A) ... "responsible gun ownership" does not include securing your weapon against theft or other transfer to criminal hands, or ...
(B) ... perhaps liability insurance would be a good protection in case a criminal does happen to get hold of a gun owned by a "good guy".​

Of course, since safety and resource security don't seem to be part of "responsible gun ownership", why should the "good guys" worry?

Right?

I mean, really: it seems that, according to gun-advocacy arguments, the last thing "responsible gun owners" should ever have to do is demonstrate or authenticate their responsbility.

"Trust me," says the responsible gun owner. Funny, that's the same thing the criminal says.

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat - Shit, jackholes, and hicks

Mod Hat - Shit, jackholes, and hicks

Why don't we make an effort to keep this simmering discussion at the level of perceiving consistent insults against our intelligence by our opposition? It is certainly easy enough to make the point that we find each other ridiculous without abandoning all pretense of civility.

So enough, please, with who does or does not know shit, who is a jackhole or a hick, and realize that I'm no more inclined to shut down this topic than I am to shut down all subsequent new discussions of the same subject. Furthermore, at least one general side of this discussion does not want me ticking off points as to who is behaving worse or who started it.

In fact, I will go so far as to suggest that we might please consider that tilting windmills, much like other forms of self-gratification, is something best done in privacy, and with imaginary partners.

Fair enough? Good. Thank you.

 

[Baron Max]

And, hey, considering the proportion of guns used by criminals that were stolen or otherwise obtained from "non-criminals", ...

Most of the guns used by criminals are NOT stolen from individuals, but from gun manufacturers, distributors, dealers, retailers and shipping companies, etc. The very, very few guns stolen from individuals would make up only a tiny, tiny fraction of guns used in crime.

So ...all of the rest of your post was just a bunch of non-sensical words ...and mostly spoken in a strange tone of sarcasm and belligerence.

Baron Max

 

[Tiassa]

Two-fifths is not exactly a "tiny, tiny fraction"

Most of the guns used by criminals are NOT stolen from individuals, but from gun manufacturers, distributors, dealers, retailers and shipping companies, etc. The very, very few guns stolen from individuals would make up only a tiny, tiny fraction of guns used in crime.

Would you call 39.6% a "tiny, tiny fraction"? How about when we compare that to another number, 39.2%?

To reiterate an earlier reiteration:

The US Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics notes that a 1997 survey of state prisons indicated that 80% of the guns used in crimes surveyed came from "family, friends, a street buy, or illegal source" ....

Of that 80% slightly over half of that result (39.6% overall) obtained their guns from "friends or family," while a slightly lower number (39.2% overall) obtained their guns from the "street" or other "illegal source."

Comparatively, the "friends and family" number for 1997 is up 5.8% compared to 1991, while the "street" number is down by 1.6% over the same period .... (#1146060)​

Despite my presentation of these stats (and I recall someone else's reiteration of those stats), what can possibly be said about the insupportable claim that "The very, very few guns stolen from individuals would make up only a tiny, tiny fraction of guns used in crime"?

When two out of every five guns used in crimes come from friends or family of the criminal, it would seem that the security of a "law abiding gun owner's" weapon, the security of the weapons held by the "good guys", is an issue that merits some discussion. Yet the issue is considered "non-sensical" by ... well, whom? Are you the only gun advocate who considers the security of legally-owned weapons non-sensical?

I suppose I should turn that question to other gun owners and advocates: Is the obligation to prevent a lethal weapon from falling into criminal hands a "non-sensical" notion?

I might also ask if 39.6% is widely considered to be a "tiny, tiny fraction"?

 

[Baron Max]

Would you call 39.6% a "tiny, tiny fraction"? How about when we compare that to another number, 39.2%?

To reiterate an earlier reiteration:

The US Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics notes that a 1997 survey of state prisons indicated that 80% of the guns used in crimes surveyed came from "family, friends, a street buy, or illegal source" ....

Of that 80% slightly over half of that result (39.6% overall) obtained their guns from "friends or family," while a slightly lower number (39.2% overall) obtained their guns from the "street" or other "illegal source."

Comparatively, the "friends and family" number for 1997 is up 5.8% compared to 1991, while the "street" number is down by 1.6% over the same period .... (#1146060)​

What the hell does "family, friends.." mean??? That statement is absolutely absurd and means nothing. Shit, everyone has "family and friends", but some could be fuckin' criminals and murderers without anyone even knowing it!

Tiassa, that bullshit that you posted means nothing unless you can be more specific about the terminolgy ....in particular, the "family and friends" bullshit! IF a family member robbed a gun store, then the brother got one of the guns and commited a murder, then.....? ...LOL!

Baron Max