How do you feel about guns?

[Baron Max]

I never considered keeping a gun for self defense. This is why I think many gun owners are fearful. I see guns as a sporting implement, and no more.

Well, that might be the way you see it, but if so, how do you explain that criminals are using more and more guns in criminal activity these days? You just shrug that off and continue to belief in a rose-colored world? How can you not see that everyone should be "fearful" of guns in the hands of criminals?

I'll say it again -- if y'all can figure out a way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, I might be willing go along with your "gun control" suggestions. But as it is, nothing anyone has suggested will keep criiminals from getting those guns ...and unless that occurs, then society must find a way of protectiing themselves, be it with more cops or with personal weapons of defense. How can you see it otherwise??

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

The reason you carry insurance on your car is not because of all the car criminals out there, but to mitigate against the harm caused by accidents.

So you admit to being "fearful" of getting into an auto accident????

I mean, since you say, "The reason you carry a gun is because you're afraid of the outside world. That's all" then your very same logic must apply, right?

I'd guess that's also true of you wearing seatbelts, right? ...you're fearful of getting into an accident and hurting yourself? I mean, don't you wear seatbelts in order to protect yourself from possible incidents? So what's the difference in someone carrying a weapon in order to protect themselves from incidents?

Baron Max

 

[phlogistician]

I'll say it again -- if y'all can figure out a way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, I might be willing go along with your "gun control" suggestions.

Head in the sand still eh Max? I've mad quite quite clear that adopting a system of licensing like the UK has will have an effect, but it will take time to achieve.

 

[Baron Max]

Head in the sand still eh Max? I've mad quite quite clear that adopting a system of licensing like the UK has will have an effect, but it will take time to achieve.

I love the way you've stated, categorically, that your system will work ...even though you have no evidence to back it up! Do you make all of your decisions based on such meager evidence?? And worse, do you make life and death decisions for everyone based on that same lack of evidence??

And you say that it will take time to achieve? How many people will be killed while that time drags slowly by? And people aren't supposed to protect themselves in that time span?

Baron Max

 

[Chatha]

Genghis Khan and his hordes didn't have too much problem killing people by the thousands, did they?

In the early days of the Muslim Empire, millions of people were killed. Then during the Crusades, more millions of people were killed.

Guns just made killing people more efficient and from a more distant range. But lest you forget, the swords and lances didn't kill all those people, the men weilding those weapons did ....just like the guns of today.

Killing is something that's been going on since the first man stood upright on the African plains ...and it ain't likely to stop any time soon.

Baron Max

I have to agree with that, but guns are expediting, escalating, profiteering from, and perpetrating the process, that is the real problem. Imagine what will be left of some societies in the event of a few nuclear bombs; total annihalation.

 

[John99]

The genie is out of the bottle, China will mass on nour border's with single shot rifles. We need weaponry.

 

[phlogistician]

I love the way you've stated, categorically, that your system will work ...even though you have no evidence to back it up!

Compare US/UK gun deaths, that is the proof. You wil argue that the UK and USA are 'culturally different' and the comparison is invalid. Well, there;s only one way for you to prove that position; adopt the same gun laws and see what happens!

Do you make all of your decisions based on such meager evidence??

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Yeah, that evidence is meagre, alright. Crunch those numbers, Max.

And worse, do you make life and death decisions for everyone based on that same lack of evidence??

Life and death decisions, ... let's see;

In 2002, 16,110 people were murdered in the USA.
March 2001 - March 2002 = 891 were murdered in the UK.

Hmm, seems the life and death decision is yours, Max. You have 5 times our population, but you kill 20 times more people. That makes you 4 times worse, adjusted per capita. Hmm, guns keep you safe, do they?

And you say that it will take time to achieve? How many people will be killed while that time drags slowly by?

Fewer people will die overall. That all you need to know, Max.

And people aren't supposed to protect themselves in that time span?

What women, from predatory men? Could the situation get worse;

The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics-13 times higher than England and more than 20 times higher than Japan. [Senate Judiciary Committee, 1990. Facts about Violence Against Women.]
University of Alabama Women's Center: sa.ua.edu/wrc/.../SAstats.doc

America, and it's frontier attitude sorely needs revision Max.

 

[Dave Myers]

Tiasa...

Very well said .... I gotta make some notes.

 

[Baron Max]

Well, there;s only one way for you to prove that position; adopt the same gun laws and see what happens!

I don't think that's the way a government should be operated, do you??? I refuse to allow my government to be operated on a hopeful whim ...even as most of the people are against that damned whim!

You have 5 times our population, but you kill 20 times more people. That makes you 4 times worse, adjusted per capita.

Does that mean that we have 5 times the number of violent criminals? Or that the criminals that we do have are 20 times more vicious?

Seems to me that all that means is that we, the general public of the USA, need personal protection a lot more than the UK! And yet you're trying to take that away from us?!

Hmm, guns keep you safe, do they?

Apparently they do. The violent gun crime rate in Florida dropped considerably when they first passed the right to carry law. By the same token, the violent, gun-related crime in Washington, DC, is horrendous and still rising ...yet has some of the most stringent gun-control laws of any city in the nation. Doesn't that tell you anything???

America, and it's frontier attitude sorely needs revision Max.

Interesting. In the "frontier days" of America, the violent, gun-related crime was much, much lower than it is now ...and everyone carried a gun! Doesn't that tell you anything??

Baron Max

 

[Chatha]

Interesting. In the "frontier days" of America, the violent, gun-related crime was much, much lower than it is now ...and everyone carried a gun! Doesn't that tell you anything??

Baron Max

According to whom?

 

[Baron Max]

According to whom?

History! You should try reading it some time.

Baron Max

 

[Nickelodeon]

History! You should try reading it some time.

Whose version?

 

[Neildo]

Neildo, what is the point of showing that graph? TW Scott admits that despite all the robbery attempts made on him, he doesn't bother reporting them to the Police. So the figure recorded for the USA is obviously far too low.

Yes, just like Australia's is far too low not being reported yet it's still high per capita, but that doesn't stop any of those places from being bastions of crime. Let's go ahead and add in the U.S. with all their guns and you still wind up with those European countries that have ungodly high crime rates.. the same if you toss in Australia.

Anyhow, I already made a post probably about 5-10 pages back that show the per capita crime rates of the US, UK, Australia, and Canada. I guess I outta go add in those other countries features in that map.

Yeah yeah. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. The old line.

I guess bad drivers don't kill people, cars kill people, eh?

hoplophobe

While I don't know if it's in the dictionary or not, hoplo means weapon and it's a phrase just like "homophobe" or "technophobe", or any other "phobe" people use just like with "philes" of "audiophile", etc. I can come up with about 100 uses of "phobes" and "philes" that everyone will know the meaning of even if not in the dictionary.

I never considered keeping a gun for self defense. This is why I think many gun owners are fearful. I see guns as a sporting implement, and no more.

If you have car insurance, you're fearful of car accidents. If you lock your doors when you leave your house, you're fearful of buglaries. If you lock your car door when you go to the store, you're fearful about car thefts. If you stay away from greasy foods, you're fearful of heart attacks. If you stay away from a girl with an STD, you fear getting the clap. My god, you're a very scared and paranoid person!

Compare US/UK gun deaths, that is the proof.

I don't doubt that. The more people and guns that exist, the more accidents/deaths will happen. Pretty obvious. However, care to compare the US crime ratio per capita vs the UK and you guys look horrible.

What you fail to realize is that our country has more guns than we do people, which means criminals have easy access to them, and there's nothing you can do to get those guns out of the hands of criminals as they will always have them. It's the criminals that do most of the killing and who we have to look out for yet you're doing nothing to combat them, only disarm citizens you most likely don't have to worry about while letting the criminal go free. Not only that, but you make everyone a bigger victim to crime because of that. If you ask a criminal who they fear more.. the police or a civilian with a gun, they'll say a civilian.

You also fail to note that for all the crimes that are commited with a gun each year, more than double that are prevented thanks to a civilian being armed. Since getting rid of guns from criminals will never happen, I'd say that looks pretty damned good for citizens able to stop that many crimes each year. I guess you can go explain to the 2.5 million more victims of crimes that will be added each year if civilians were no longer able to stop those crimes without the aid of a firearm. Actually the number would be higher than how many are prevented each year because many of the crimes that are prevented each year thanks to a firearm, the criminal winds up in jail and off the street unable to assault another victim until released on good behavior or rehabilitation thanks to liberal policy.

Life and death decisions, ... let's see;

In 2002, 16,110 people were murdered in the USA.
March 2001 - March 2002 = 891 were murdered in the UK.

Hmm, seems the life and death decision is yours, Max. You have 5 times our population, but you kill 20 times more people. That makes you 4 times worse, adjusted per capita. Hmm, guns keep you safe, do they??

You won't ever be able to take guns away from criminals, even in the UK crimes and murders are still commited with them. And yes, guns keep us safe. How many of those murdered people you list were by criminals with firearms as opposed to a knife or other means? How many of those dead civilians (which is actually lower as most murders are gang/crime related so good riddance to those scumbags) were armed with a gun or not? They were probably unarmed, peace-loving, beatnik liberals who would never touch a gun only to wish they had one at that moment. And how many crimes or other potentional killings were prevented thanks to a civilian with a firearm? Answer me those, please.

No way do I deny that we're more violent than you guys, but that's a mentality, while guns are only a tool. Most assaults happen with a knife or other sharp, easily concealable, handheld object.

Fewer people will die overall. That all you need to know, Max.

Bullcrud. All that will happen is the criminals (assuming they no longer have access to a firearm) will change their method of attack and their tool. Murder rates will stay the same or even climb such as in the case of the UK. People become bigger victims thanks to less adequate means of protection. Their deaths and assaults per capita skyrocketed when the gun ban went into effect. The accidental deaths for firearms did not outweight becoming a bigger target of crime. Their crime rates are worse off with a gun ban than they were when they were more legal.

I guess it's time for me to post those crime stats again. Taken from my post 9 pages back from a link with stats that an anti-gunner here used:

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime

Well, from the news I've read awhile back, which is probably more recent than those stats, it said those two countries recently barely passed the U.S. in violent crime stats per capita, although all were pretty much similar.

Anyways, using those stats, keeping in mind that guns are practically banned in those countries and not here in the U.S. except in the big cities where most of our crime occurs, here's the stats according to that site:

Edit: It's also interesting to read the little tidbit facts shown in these lists that gives more detail to various things.

Assaults per capita:

#6 United States 7.56923 per 1,000 people
#8 United Kingdom 7.45959 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada 7.11834 per 1,000 people
#10 Australia 7.02459 per 1,000 people

Burglaries per capita:

#1 Australia 21.7454 per 1,000 people
#7 United Kingdom 13.8321 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada 8.94425 per 1,000 people
#17 United States 7.09996 per 1,000 people

Car thefts per capita:

#1 Australia 6.92354 per 1,000 people
#3 United Kingdom 5.6054 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada 4.88547 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 3.8795 per 1,000 people

Manslaughter's per capita:

#11 Australia 0.0147337 per 1,000 people
#40 Canada 0.00158512 per 1,000 people

US and UK not shown on list.

Murders overall per capita:

#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

Murders with firearms per capita:

#8 United States 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

Perceptions of safety from burglary:

#4 United States 78%
#7 Canada 66%
#10 United Kingdom 58%
#11 Australia 57%

Perceptions of safety walking in the dark:

#2 United States 82%
#3 Canada 82%
#12 United Kingdom 70%
#14 Australia 64%

Police per capita:

#32 Australia 2.09293 per 1,000 people
#34 United Kingdom 2.04871 per 1,000 people
#42 Canada 1.70767 per 1,000 people

US not shown on list.

Reporting to police:

#6 United Kingdom 53%
#7 United States 52%
#9 Australia 50%
#11 Canada 48%

Property crime victims:

#2 Australia 13.9%
#4 United Kingdom 12.2%
#6 Canada 10.4%
#7 United States 10%

Rapes per capita:

#3 Australia 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom 0.142172 per 1,000 people

Robberies per capita:

#8 United Kingdom 1.57433 per 1,000 people
#11 United States 1.38527 per 1,000 people
#15 Australia 1.16048 per 1,000 people
#22 Canada 0.823411 per 1,000 people

Suicide rates ages 15-24:

#4 Canada 15 per 100,000 people
#6 Australia 14.6 per 100,000 people
#7 United States 13.7 per 100,000 people
#15 United Kingdom 6.7 per 100,000 people

Suicide rates ages 25-34:

#7 Australia 18.7 per 100,000 people
#8 Canada 18 per 100,000 people
#10 United States 15.3 per 100,000 people
#15 United Kingdom 10.6 per 100,000 people

Suicide rates ages 35-44:

#8 Canada 19.2 per 100,000 people
#10 Australia 15.9 per 100,000 people
#12 United States 15.3 per 100,000 people
#16 United Kingdom 11.4 per 100,000 people

Suicide rates ages 45-54:

#10 Canada 18.5 per 100,000 people
#11 Australia 14.7 per 100,000 people
#13 United States 14.3 per 100,000 people
#16 United Kingdom 9.3 per 100,000 people

Suicide rates ages 55-64:

#11 Canada 15.1 per 100,000 people
#12 Australia 13.7 per 100,000 people
#14 United States 13.3 per 100,000 people
#17 United Kingdom 7.9 per 100,000 people

Suicide rates ages 65-74

#11 United States 15.3 per 100,000 people
#14 Canada 12.1 per 100,000 people
#15 Australia 11.8 per 100,000 people
#17 United Kingdom 7.5 per 100,000 people

Suicide rates 75+

#10 United States 22 per 100,000 people
#12 Australia 16 per 100,000 people
#15 Canada 12.2 per 100,000 people
#16 United Kingdom 9.2 per 100,000 people

Total crimes per capita:

#6 United Kingdom 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#8 United States 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#12 Canada 75.4921 per 1,000 people

Australia not shown.

- N

 

[Baron Max]

Well, I see that no one has any good suggestions about how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals! So until that happens, and becomes an actual fact, you can't have my guns!! And I'll keep carrying it wherever I go ...just like the insurance I carry on my car and just like the seatbelts that I wear while driving .....all of it intended to keep me safe from harm.

Baron Max

 

[Neildo]

And I'll keep carrying it wherever I go ...just like the insurance I carry on my car and just like the seatbelts that I wear while driving .....all of it intended to keep me safe from harm.

You paranoid person with no sense of reality...

- N

 

[James R]

I see that no one has any good suggestions about how to keep guns out of the hands of criminals!

You hold the naive view that "criminals" are different from you. You probably think of a criminal as some shabbily-dressed, unemployed, unshaven guy who comes from the bad part of town.

In fact, a criminal might live next door to you, have a high-paying corporate job and a family, and be happily committing white-collar fraud in the cause of his job.

Anybody can commit a crime. If you keep a gun so you can shoot people, you'll probably end up becoming a criminal yourself, when you shoot somebody in your local grocery store in cold blood because you thought he looked a bit shabbily dressed and your irrational fear that he might harm you got the better of you.

 

[TW Scott]

Neildo, what is the point of showing that graph? TW Scott admits that despite all the robbery attempts made on him, he doesn't bother reporting them to the Police. So the figure recorded for the USA is obviously far too low. If TW Scott is representative, American citizens suffer attempted crimes far more often than anyone in Europe!

Actually I do not report failed attempts. If a crimanal fails to enter my house he has commited no crime. If a man fails to mug me becuase he sees the outline of my handgun, he has commited no crime. Plus i will tell you I live in a town with a toal of 30 police officers. that is City, Sheriff and State. I could wait hours for the chance to speak to a proper authority, I'd much rather get on with my life if no one was harmed. However i do turn over all my incidnets at the end of each month to a statistical database as well to the proper department of the CDC. So the crime perpetrated against me, even if failed and not really crimes do show up in those statistics.

 

[TW Scott]

You hold the naive view that "criminals" are different from you. You probably think of a criminal as some shabbily-dressed, unemployed, unshaven guy who comes from the bad part of town.

In fact, a criminal might live next door to you, have a high-paying corporate job and a family, and be happily committing white-collar fraud in the cause of his job.

Actually, you are the niave one here. Yes there are embezzlers and conmen and that sort, but there is also the violent sort. Again who may not be shabbily dressed, may live next to me, and is some sort of predator. there are all sorts. A person does not get a gun to protect himself from conmen, but from people who've become so hardened that they have no compunction about maiming or killing you.

Anybody can commit a crime. If you keep a gun so you can shoot people, you'll probably end up becoming a criminal yourself, when you shoot somebody in your local grocery store in cold blood because you thought he looked a bit shabbily dressed and your irrational fear that he might harm you got the better of you.

Interesting how you go there. Most people would only ever pull a gun as a last resort. You however seem to fantasize about people who kill for no reason. That says a lot as me personally I'm not sure i could kill. Shoot someone through an extremity and cripple them yes, but not kill. You seem to be quite preoccupied with the thought of killing, which makes me wonder if you actually think it would be fun.

Psychoanalysis aside. It doesn't take a gun to kill some one and if some one has an irrational fear anything is a weapon. Imagine the headline now. 'Man kills with coconut in produce department' and a picture of you being hauled away. It's not the guns that are the problem, it's people like you who lack any connection with reality.

 

[James R]

TW Scott:

A person does not get a gun to protect himself from conmen, but from people who've become so hardened that they have no compunction about maiming or killing you.

Over 80% of gun-homicides are committed by a person known to the victim. Your fear of stranger-murder is overblown and out of control. Your own brother is more likely, statistically, to shoot you than some shabby guy at the grocery store who you've never met. For that matter, you're more likely to shoot yourself in the foot by accident.

Interesting how you go there. Most people would only ever pull a gun as a last resort.

You admit to flashing yours around all the time like some kind of Rambo badge of honour.

You however seem to fantasize about people who kill for no reason.

No, that's you. If some guy sets out to steal your wallet, 99% of the time he doesn't want to shoot you. He wants money, not a murder rap.

That says a lot as me personally I'm not sure i could kill.

Then why carry a gun?

Shoot someone through an extremity and cripple them yes, but not kill.

Are you aware that police are taught that if they need to shoot somebody they should shoot to kill? Why do you think that might be?

Your idea of maiming an assailant and that saving you from harm is unrealistic. If you're going to escalate a situation by drawing a gun, you'd better be ready to kill, because people who you draw your gun on will surely be ready to kill you when you threaten them with presumed death.

You seem to be quite preoccupied with the thought of killing, which makes me wonder if you actually think it would be fun.

I'm not the one taking a gun to the grocery store.

It doesn't take a gun to kill some one and if some one has an irrational fear anything is a weapon. Imagine the headline now. 'Man kills with coconut in produce department' and a picture of you being hauled away. It's not the guns that are the problem, it's people like you who lack any connection with reality.

How easy do you think it would be to kill somebody with a coconut?

You do make me laugh, TW Scott. If your views weren't quite so harmful, I'd be tempted to just laugh and walk away. But sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt as a result of your irrational fears. It might even be you, and I'd like to prevent that. Who would I laugh at if you shot yourself?

 

[TW Scott]

Over 80% of gun-homicides are committed by a person known to the victim. Your fear of stranger-murder is overblown and out of control. Your own brother is more likely, statistically, to shoot you than some shabby guy at the grocery store who you've never met. For that matter, you're more likely to shoot yourself in the foot by accident.

Actually my own brother is not much more likely to shoot anyone, after all he was never concieved, lol. Actually that 80% factors into the fact that for that 80% they iassume that a person knows everyone in their home town if it is less than 5,000 and if the town is bigger that 5 grand that you know everyone in a 12 block radius, minimum.

You admit to flashing yours around all the time like some kind of Rambo badge of honour.

Hey, flashed, yes, but not drawn. When I reach for my wallet in a certain way, you can see the grip if you are observant. I have practivced to make that a natural looking move.

No, that's you. If some guy sets out to steal your wallet, 99% of the time he doesn't want to shoot you. He wants money, not a murder rap.

What, are you fucking kidding me? If he wants my wallet he can learn to be a pick pocket and get it without alerting me. A mugger wnats the thrill of seeing you scared, then it slipps to the high cuased by beating you and finally it keeps getting worse and worse.

Then why carry a gun?

Becuase a gun is a great equilizer. And besides the jackhole holding me up doesn't know i am reluctant to kill. All he knws is that he suddenly wishes he was somewhere else raping your poor ass.

Are you aware that police are taught that if they need to shoot somebody they should shoot to kill? Why do you think that might be?

I was taught to shoot to kill too, if I had to. Of course I would try crippling first, just like every good cop does.

Your idea of maiming an assailant and that saving you from harm is unrealistic. If you're going to escalate a situation by drawing a gun, you'd better be ready to kill, because people who you draw your gun on will surely be ready to kill you when you threaten them with presumed death.

Yeah, but is real hard to do anything with a honking bullet hole through your knee, elbow, or shoulder. Besides I can pop off another round if I find I need to. Otherwise I have saved myself and possibly given a criminal a second chance on life.

I'm not the one taking a gun to the grocery store.

Which is not surprising becuase obviously you should not have one.

How easy do you think it would be to kill somebody with a coconut?

Hey, I've seen where people have died from five mile an hour baseballs.

You do make me laugh, TW Scott. If your views weren't quite so harmful, I'd be tempted to just laugh and walk away. But sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt as a result of your irrational fears. It might even be you, and I'd like to prevent that. Who would I laugh at if you shot yourself?

Hehehehe, oh, I'm sure the psychiatrist who lets you use his chatline is funny too. When you finally get competent enough to actually analyze this logically then perhaps people should listen to you.

It is proven that areas that have more gun control and gun bans are more prone to violent crime and htier crime rate rises faster. They also still have an over abundance of gun crime. Meanwhile areas with lax guncontrol laws and 'Shall issue' statutes have lower overall violent crime rates and much lower gun crime rates, as well as crime loss.

Now, you can argue all you want. You can shut your eyes, plug your ears and scream, but it does not change the truth. More guns = less violent crime.