How do you feel about guns?

[TimeTraveler]

They just wanted my 5 euros.

How do you know that? are you a mind reader? What if it were a large black male pointing a gun at you?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

How do you know that? are you a mind reader? What if it were a large black male pointing a gun at you?

It was a large black male pointing a gun at me. This was Rio remember. Not so many whities around.

His buddy was standing behind me btw to give backup. Didn't see him at first.

 

[Jaster Mereel]

I like guns. In fact, I like weapons in general. I'm a weaponry-oriented person. Not violent, but I definitely like weapons... probably has something to do with the power that is wielded through them. I'm obsessed with power.

Or, I'm crazy.

 

[wesmorris]

Screw guns. Let's give everyone nukes.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Screw nukes. Lets give everyone E.Coli.

 

[thedevilsreject]

Screw guns. Let's give everyone nukes.

 

[shades]

Actually, the gun was also originally used to procure food. Remember when we didn't have our current level of technology which allows most of us to avoid the nasty chore of actually having to chase down and kill our own food. At least we had to, if we were in the mood for a steak. People kill people and where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[TimeTraveler]

Actually, the gun was also originally used to procure food. Remember when we didn't have our current level of technology which allows most of us to avoid the nasty chore of actually having to chase down and kill our own food. At least we had to, if we were in the mood for a steak. People kill people and where there is a will, there is a way.

Just because people do it, it does not mean it's logical, rational, smart, wise, or a sign of brilliance. People jump out of airplanes and lemmings walk off cliffs to. The gun is about power, pure and simple.

 

[James R]

Neildo:

You're a smart guy. Look at TimeTraveler. Your paranoia is only one small step removed from TimeTraveler's paranoia.

Can't you see that it is just insane?

 

[Neildo]

Neildo:

You're a smart guy. Look at TimeTraveler. Your paranoia is only one small step removed from TimeTraveler's paranoia.

Can't you see that it is just insane?

Uh, how the hell is it paranoia when I HAVE TO and DO deal with those situations? Do you not read what I'm typing or do you just wanna selectively hear what you wanna hear because ignorance is bliss?

I'm not making this crap up. It's not like crime doesn't friggin' exist where it's some fairytale and we live in some utopian society. Maybe if that were so, you'd have a point, but until then, good luck trying to convince people like me who do live in this real world to change our ways.

- N

 

[TimeTraveler]

Neildo:

You're a smart guy. Look at TimeTraveler. Your paranoia is only one small step removed from TimeTraveler's paranoia.

Can't you see that it is just insane?

The arguement we are making is that paranoia is the natural state of living organisms. An animal in a jungle, is paranoid not because it's wild, but because the jungle really is dangerous and the paranoid actually do live slightly longer.

We look at humans, and the less paranoid you are, the more domesticated you are, the less aware you are that you function in a pet like role to the economy. That's all I can say, when you actually start to declaw yourself, and beg for a collar, then it starts getting strange.

It's not that I'm the most paranoid person here, I know there are many people far more paranoid than I am, I'm just saying being paranoid is the natural state, it's more natural than faith (faith is a religious concept), and hope (hope is also a religious concept), and trust (trust only exists after it's verified, then enforced).

Society is a contract, very much like a business contract, when that contract is breached, then so is society, and all the rules that domesticated society relies on, begins to fall apart, as they observe in complete confusion, and then the aggressives begin to riot and loot, while the confused citizen watches and does nothing, until there is no order left at all, no police, nothing but crazed people doing crazy things to each other, killing each other, cannibalizing, robbing each other, raping, and functioning like pirates or criminals, and these criminals aren't stupid, they organize quick, so a small group of criminals eventually do develop their own rules and laws, and the next thing you know, they run the city, they are the government, and you are serving them, and when this happens it's too late.

Yes this picture/story is paranoid, but if you look through human history, it's actually this period of history, this era was the exception, only hundreds of years ago we had people enslaved by the gun, only 1000 years ago we had people running around commiting crimes everywhere and no law but the natural laws of rule by force. It was so bad that people had to hide behind walls for hundreds or thousands of years, and these walls just recently came down in the last 100 years.

I'm paranoid? The wall existed to protect the paranoid, because they feared the faceless barbarian masses, who they thought would come into their peaceful community and rape their women, kill and eat their children alive, or whatever else. It might not be that bad in reality, but the fact that there really are a few criminals, serial killers, rapists, out there, is enough to make even a modern person take it seriously that there are people who want to harm you.

I know you disagree with me, many people do, but I also know I'm not the most paranoid person on earth, because I'm not so hungry for power that I want to be a ruler, I just wan't to be safe. The ultimate level of paranoia is when you want to basically own everyone and everything around you, to basically control your environment so that you have no reason to fear it.

I'm not that paranoid, I'm just a cautious safety first individual. I don't seek to put a gun in your hand if you don't want it, I just like my freedom and I understand that freedom can be taken away easier than it can be won.

 

[Neildo]

I'm not that paranoid, I'm just a cautious safety first individual.

Cautious safety-first individual? Rubbish. If you wear a seatbelt while driving, you're just paranoid of getting in a car accident. I mean, hey, crime and car accidents don't happen in this utopian dreamworld!

- N

 

[James R]

Crime is why we have police.

 

[TimeTraveler]

Crime is why we have police.

Criminals have police too.

 

[Tiassa]

I never said it would be universal, but okay, what community are you from and who are all these people you can trust?

If it's not universal, then what's the problem you have with the idea that one would seek out pockets of refuge where cooperative convention still holds sway?

As for trust, what? You can't trust your friends? I can trust mine. And in the Seattle area, I've found that I can trust all sorts of people from neighbors to random faces on a bus. Hell, I changed lanes driving today, and nobody shot at me. The guy who cut me off without a signal didn't seem to worry about whether I was armed or took part in the cooperative convention that you don't shoot people simply for being assholes. A neighbor of mine is a complete idiot, a drug addict, and a desperately lonely character; I trust him inasmuch as he hasn't given me reason not to. That I'm helping him move this week? Hey, I just want him gone so I don't have to listen to his pathetic begging; ever been offered money to do cocaine? I mean, really, I live in a strange corner of the Universe, but it's still not as strange or scary as the descriptions of human society offered by gun owners in political debates.

No, it's the gun that enforces a woman's right to govern her body. Do you want to wait for your gender to be enslaved by the gun?

Okay, your turn: what community do you live in, so I can avoid it? Seriously, if folks in your area only respect one another for fear of death, that's a place to avoid. See, avoiding crazy places like that is one of the ways I protect myself without threatening anyone's life. Maybe it's a place I have a right to be, but why would I want to be surrounded by people so frightened that death is their only motivation to be decent human beings.

I'm not talking about ethical people, ethical people should have the guns, you should have a gun. If you don't, well the criminals will have all the guns and will be telling you what to do. Someone will have the guns.

If society breaks down so far that a gun becomes a necessity in my life, I would consider it at least. But I see no reason to help push society to that point in order to justify owning one.

We are on the verge of species level extinction not just civlization collapse, but you don't seem to realize this because you don't know the difference between a riot, and extinction. A riot is the collapse of order, humans might still survive this, but humans will not survive if we don't change something.

If humans become extinct because they are sick and tired of cooperating with one another, so be it. Evolution and natural selection play no favorites. It's a matter of what any individual finds important, and if it's important enough for an individual to attain a goal at the expense of human existence, they are certainly welcome to make the attempt. Doesn't mean that person is smart, though.

Something you may not realize: the rush toward apocalypse is a choice. I just happen to disagree with that choice and its outcomes. Unlike some people who are willing to kill for a cause, there are people willing to die for a cause. And if that means choosing the future of humanity over some momentary gratification, at least someone will have made a stand for the future of the species. Any coward can kill.

The arrogance of these statements amaze me.

Your statement is not surprising in the slightest.

Violent people are not "lower", or at least they don't think they are, they think YOU are the lower species because you REFUSE to have a gun. Don't you get it?

You're making a valiant effort, I admit, to make that point clear.

Natural selection has nothing to do with gene quality, it has everything to do with weaponry. If you look at our evolution, the main thing that controlled evolution for the last few hundred years has been the gun, and other sorts of weapons.

Controlling evolution for a few hundred years is child's play, and insignificant. You're the one justifying an assertion by rushing toward extinction. Perhaps gene quality is more important than you realize. Economic tools, cooperative convention, and political institutions will do more to tailor the future evolution of the species than guns. Guns are symptomatic of an erroneous convention. You're working to demonstrate that reality.

Yeah that is what everyone thinks until they get attacked.

Better to go on the attack, then? Of course, as we've already discussed, there are situations in which a gun simply wouldn't help me: if someone is determined to take me down, they can find a way.

These "brutes" will take everyone out with them, don't you understand how powerful weapons are now? We could easy go extinct if the wrong weapon is used, and you wonder why everyone is paranoid? Once again, do you have any idea how human history went or works?

And what will your gun, or anyone else's, do against that weapon?

Trying to impede the march of history in order to justify paranoia is a futile effort on your part.

You seem to think the most evolved humans rule everything, it's never EVER been this way. The humans who have the best weapons rule and it does not matter how evolved you are. Whoever has gun, rules world.

Yes. Will a .40 caliber handgun get me a regional governorship, or a job as a filing clerk? The most evolved humans do not seek to rule. Such thoughts generally contribute to headaches; it's an evolutionary development.

Just because you want to imagine guns and violence as not real, and just because you want to imagine the rulers as not being the rulers, it does not change the fact that guns have always decided. Do you think slaves from Africa decided to be slaves, or were guns in their face 24/7?

And unless one thinks that's the right way for things to be, then, now, and in the future, I don't see why anyone would contribute to perpetuating such a situation.

You think the majority of people like going to work 8 hours a day? You think the world is like this because we all agreed to it or voted it this way? It's always been, the people who have the guns make all the rules, the rules for me, the rules for you, they are the masters.

Have you just explained the concept of a workplace shooting?

Seriously, I can make a Molotov if I decide I need to. But I don't keep them sitting around, waiting for the chance to use them. Likewise, I can get a gun if I need to, but I don't see any reason to keep one sitting around, waiting for the chance to use it. And yes, consent of the governed occurs on many levels obviously too subtle for your grasp. We can all rebel and either win or die if we choose, but most people choose not to.

At this point, I should make the point that I have no idea why you're rambling on this tangent. At best, you're demonstrating what's creepy about gun advocates.

You know what poverty is, you know what a gun is, and you know how poverty is a weapon of mass control, you know these things unless you were born rich with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Ah. In that case, your "poverty gun" is an inept metaphor. Absolutely useless.

Yes, exactly, thats how the world is currently run.

And do you think this is right? To what end does such an arrangement work?

The lawyers don't run the world, the world is run by the weapons and the people who control them. The people who make the weapons make most of the money, the people who control the weapons have all of the power, and the people who create the money, these people are like lawyers, but the money ultimately may not be as powerful as the weapons, and thats the problem, laws and money are how society exists now, but technology and weapons on the other hand, actually controls society.

How many people would you kill to get your way? I have yet to encounter a situation in my daily life where killing someone would accomplish something that could not be accomplished otherwise. As the majority of the world has chosen to not stand up and die in order to make a statement about the way things are, certainly you realize the cooperative convention responsible for the way things are, or at least how you describe them.

Fear generates order.

It's one method, and quite unstable.

You are funny, you are the government, the criminal, and your own protector, because if you aren't, who will protect you?

You're not making much sense. But that's okay. After all, you can just shoot anyone who doesn't agree with you, right? Isn't that how things are done in your corner of the Universe? Again, where is this community, so that I might avoid the hell out of it?

Yes you should avoid bad situations but you cannot avoid every bad situation all the time.

Life is. That's something you seem unable to grasp. Life, simply, is.

Try looking at humanity in a zoological context sometime. Really, it's quite enlightening. I still haven't finished learning from the resulting vista.

You seem like a good person, I agree with you, but how the hell can you protect yourself or your species when you have no gun?

You're operating on presuppositions that you've stuck into this discussion. Go back and read through my four points of "gun control"; tell me what's wrong with them.

The justifications and arguments put forth by the gun-advocacy lobby, however, are as unrealistic as the argument you're pushing. I, personally, don't own a gun because I don't see the need. I, personally, do not believe that fear of death is the only thing keeping people in line. Cooperative conventions are often the path of least resistance, a far more attractive option for those choosing to participate in "society" or "civilization" than killing whatever inconveniences us.

What collective are you a member of?

I'm an American. I'm a Washingtonian. I live in Snohomish County, Washington. I am a resident of an unincorporated portion of the city of Bothell. More than any of that, however, and beyond being part of various other collective identifications such as "male", "liberal", "theistic", &c., and beyond my specific identifications such as "Sisyphan Camusite", I am a human being. Humanity is the most fundamental collective I am a part of: the endeavor of the human species to survive. Rather than presupposing our extinction, I look to better our chances in the Universe.

Sure there are collectives, but they all have guns, it's not like you can be a collective and not have any defense system at all. [It can be money, it can be guns, it has to be something, because you cannot just, have a collective, and have nothing more than that and be safe. You will need some type of security to protect your collective, even if it's elementary security such as a police force or security guards

And that's all fine. I don't object to that. But scaring the populace and bristling with arms does nothing for the benefit of the collective in the long run. We've already been through this part: we're up to nuclear bombs. I'm not particularly anxious for the step up to a Death Star or, perhaps, a "singularity bomb”. If it gets to the point that petty ambitions justify the destruction of a solar system, or even a planet, then there is a good argument that extinction is what’s best for the species.

You know I'm not for extinction.

I’ll take your word for it.

Look, we have the same goal, we may even be of the same collective, the point is, if you are in a collective you have to at least care about security. I don't know how you can be a collective and not have any security, it does not have to be guns, it can be money, it can be that you hire your own private security, it might be that you just isolate yourself, but whatever you do, you'll need a security first attitude because despite what you think, there are hooligans and barbarians out there, or brutes, whatever you want to call them, who actually do like to destroy stuff and dominate people for fun.

The reality of weapons is not difficult to perceive. The surrender to weapons is perhaps a little more difficult to avoid. However, there is a point of departure for our current disagreement, and, frankly, I don’t understand how you reach that point. Rather than responding to my inquiry about the meaning of “well-regulated militia” or what rights are being stolen, you’re off on this tangent. Yes, there are barbarians out there who like to destroy and dominate for the hell of it. Society in general would have an easier time dealing with them if it wasn’t for the interference of people who need more and more of those barbarians in order to justify their own insecurities.

So, what, do you need a fully-automatic rifle with a grenade launcher to protect yourself from the barbarians? Yes? Then, really, I need to know your community because I want to avoid both the barbarians in your community and the explosive response.

Take gang violence, for instance. On the one hand, there is a large irony afoot in the observation that the group that empowered the 1980s escalation of gang violence happens to have a political alliance with the people who want grenade launchers for home defense. And, yes, I’m overstating the NRA--maybe--but most of that brand of crime is symptomatic of other issues. Certain things we fear will not go away if I have a gun. They’ll only go away when the ideas that breed them are overcome.

The rational fear is the fact that we all have to work just to avoid being shot by the poverty gun. We all have to avoid falling into the prison trap. We all have to earn money for security purposes, thats why everyone goes to work, out of fear. That's just how society is organized, and yes we need to be able to survive, but admit it, if you don't have enough money to feel secure you'd be paranoid too, so I'm guessing you are rich.

That’s a great paragraph for a different discussion.

As to being rich ... I have a family that loves me, friends that I can trust, and a precious young daughter who regularly defies people’s expectations with her happiness, beauty, and humanity. So yes, I guess I’m rich.

If you’re referring to money, however ... I would encourage you to think again. I have no economic standing of my own in the world. My security in the world is the result of convention, trust, and cooperation. There is not a gun in existence that could provide me a better situation.

Tangential question: Do you believe that some people do not fear death?

If so, I would ask you to realize that fear is, ultimately a choice. Empowering other choices may be difficult, and require inconvenient and dangerous approaches such as education--that is, gathering enough information to understand what we see--but it really is worth the risk. (And you’ll find, as the effort goes along, that it’s not really so dangerous, and it becomes less inconvenient with each degree of progress. The most common fear seems to be that it takes longer, and requires more effort than squeezing the trigger.)

 

[TW Scott]

Crime is why we have police.

Actuially the first police forces were just the armed thugs of the guy who is convince you owe him taxes becuase you are on 'his' land.

Well you're right Crime is why we have police, just not the way you think.

 

[Neildo]

Crime is why we have police.

In case you haven't noticed, the police arrive AFTER a crime has been committed.

That doesn't do any good for victims of crime.

Unless you're a special-ops force like SWAT, ATF or FBI, only then do they try and stop a crime before it's committed through raids, although usually they still arrive after the scene. Too bad regular citizens can't just call them up on whim when they're being assaulted.

- N

 

[Neildo]

Tangential question: Do you believe that some people do not fear death?

Yes, myself. I don't fear death, but I'm not going to go out and my way and do foolish things to make my life any shorter than it already is. You know, kind of like religious people who think heaven is such a wonderful thing, but they still wanna use their time to be part of this earth.

Living is the thing you gotta worry about, not death. Don't have to worry about a damned thing when you're dead. Being assaulted or raped and having to live through that nightmare for the rest of your life or shot and crippled is far worse. Or the thought of dying when you're children aren't of age left leaving them all alone because their parents got assaulted during an outing, or worse, the whole family in their own home! So I do what I need to do to minimize that risk.

- N

 

[James R]

In case you haven't noticed, the police arrive AFTER a crime has been committed.

Ah, but you see having a police force is a deterrent to crime. So is going to jail.

 

[TimeTraveler]

If it's not universal, then what's the problem you have with the idea that one would seek out pockets of refuge where cooperative convention still holds sway?

Gun control is CONTROL. Don't you get it! What type of control are you going to bring next? Thought control? Some people have the liberty instinct, they just don't like being controlled, and just the phrase gun control, to a person like this it becomes self defense control. The question is why? Why not control the criminals? Why do you want big, intrusive, controlling government to tell you how to live life, what foods to eat, how many hours to sleep, what to think, I mean christ, how much control?

As for trust, what? You can't trust your friends? I can trust mine.


How many friends? Hundreds? Thousands? Most American's only trust 2 people.

And in the Seattle area, I've found that I can trust all sorts of people from neighbors to random faces on a bus.

You are just naive. I'd never trust a complete stranger. You can't trust a stranger at all, not even to serve you a drink or food without being suspicious.


Hell, I changed lanes driving today, and nobody shot at me. The guy who cut me off without a signal didn't seem to worry about whether I was armed or took part in the cooperative convention that you don't shoot people simply for being assholes.

Where do you get this shooting stuff from?

A neighbor of mine is a complete idiot, a drug addict, and a desperately lonely character; I trust him inasmuch as he hasn't given me reason not to.

You are so naive! Trust should be earned, just like money. Do you give random homeless people free money or do you give them a job? Always give them a job over charity. Trust is not charity, it's supposed to be scarce, in limited supply, so that people will value it more when they earn it. You are de-valueing trust and you are messing up the economics of the web of trust. Trust is to be earned, verified, and leveled, you can use points, you can use credits, but it must be based on experience not feelings.

That I'm helping him move this week? Hey, I just want him gone so I don't have to listen to his pathetic begging; ever been offered money to do cocaine? I mean, really, I live in a strange corner of the Universe, but it's still not as strange or scary as the descriptions of human society offered by gun owners in political debates.



Okay, your turn: what community do you live in, so I can avoid it?

I live in America, the land where people like you are too naive to care about your own health, your own food security, your own water security. My community is of two kinds of people, people who are criminals and people like you, and most people, just like you, want to support gun control, want to keep giving more and more power to fewer hands, want to decrease their own civil liberties, and they do absolutely nothing to protect the most basic of basics. Where do you get your food and water? Is it clean? Is it organic? do you even read the list of ingredients? You can call it paranoid but I call it nutritional security. Do you recognize that the air is not clean either? It's filled with pollution, what have naive people done to protect the environment, the climate, the air, the food, the water? What about the pesticides in everything? If you don't do something now to protect your food and water supply, your air supply, etc, then you don't care about your life. I recognize that there is no community in most places, it's not safe here, it's not safe anywhere.

Seriously, if folks in your area only respect one another for fear of death, that's a place to avoid. See, avoiding crazy places like that is one of the ways I protect myself without threatening anyone's life. Maybe it's a place I have a right to be, but why would I want to be surrounded by people so frightened that death is their only motivation to be decent human beings.

You don't get it, you cannot avoid places, you have to live somewhere, and unless you are rich, or born rich, you don't get to choose where. It's simple, most humans arent decent, some are, and those who are decent actually are rare. You could be decent, but you also could be naive. You might actually believe that other people will always be there to protect you, but sadly thats not how the world is, it never was that way, and it wont be that way if you just sit around and wait for someone else to do everything to protect you. You don't care for guns? Fine, but instead of fighting for gun control, why don't you fight to control access to clean food and water? Why don't you fight to create security somewhere else? Why do you want to reduce security and then expect rational people to understand it? It has nothing to do with gun lobby, I don't work for a gun lobby, I don't own a gun, I just think it should be a right.

If society breaks down so far that a gun becomes a necessity in my life, I would consider it at least.
So you want to wait until there is chaos in the streets?

But I see no reason to help push society to that point in order to justify owning one.
Do you want to own yourself, or do you want to be owned? Make a choice.


If humans become extinct because they are sick and tired of cooperating with one another, so be it.
Finally you reveal your true colors. You just don't care. Thanks for making a statement like "so be it", it's one to be remembered.

Evolution and natural selection play no favorites.

Natural selection favors whoever controls the best weaponry of the time period. Thats how it always has been.

It's a matter of what any individual finds important, and if it's important enough for an individual to attain a goal at the expense of human existence, they are certainly welcome to make the attempt.
That is completely irrational but yes most people don't care about existance so I don't really understand what their goal is.

Doesn't mean that person is smart, though.


Something you may not realize: the rush toward apocalypse is a choice.

You don't make any choices. People who own guns make choices, and you live with them.

I just happen to disagree with that choice and its outcomes. Unlike some people who are willing to kill for a cause, there are people willing to die for a cause.

Irrational.


And if that means choosing the future of humanity over some momentary gratification, at least someone will have made a stand for the future of the species. Any coward can kill.

Suicide is irrational. You can choose to protect yourself and then maybe you won't be in a situation like that. It's better to stay neutral, not get involved in religious causes of this nature. Your concern should be your own survival and the survival of your family.


Your statement is not surprising in the slightest.



You're making a valiant effort, I admit, to make that point clear.



Controlling evolution for a few hundred years is child's play, and insignificant. You're the one justifying an assertion by rushing toward extinction.

It's not the gun that makes people go extinct, it's PEOPLE that make people go extinct. It has nothing to do with the weaponry involved, don't you get it?!

Perhaps gene quality is more important than you realize. Economic tools, cooperative convention, and political institutions will do more to tailor the future evolution of the species than guns.

You are one of the most naive people I've ever seen post here. The only reason there are economic and political intitutions is because there are guns. Do you want to know why America leads the world? We have the biggest gun, thats how. Why do you think we spend 400 billion a year on defense? Because we have to, to maintain these political institutions and economic order that you talk about. If you cannot understand that even today the world is run by force of the gun and violence, you were never understand it.

Guns are symptomatic of an erroneous convention. You're working to demonstrate that reality.

You just don't get it, it's not the gun, it's people! It's violent people in specific, it has nothing to do with the gun. Why can't you understand that the gun is not killing you, it's the person who uses it.

Better to go on the attack, then? Of course, as we've already discussed, there are situations in which a gun simply wouldn't help me: if someone is determined to take me down, they can find a way.

I never said I endorsed attacking. I'm against aggression. I said I'm for self defense. Self defense is not the same as aggression, if you don't know this maybe thats why you don't know the difference between citizens and criminals and between order and chaos. It's aggression, a trait in people, it's not the gun.



And what will your gun, or anyone else's, do against that weapon?

Trying to impede the march of history in order to justify paranoia is a futile effort on your part.

What are you talking about? Impede the march of history? What kinda person are you?

Yes. Will a .40 caliber handgun get me a regional governorship, or a job as a filing clerk?
Who know's. You just don't seem to get it. Are you trying to be a politician? Do you have any idea, the type of political weapons that polticians use? You don't stand a chance in hell at being elected because there are so many dirty tricks, so much blackmail, so many political weapons that you'd not even win a primary with your outlook. You have to be prepared to really dig into the trenches, this means you have to research every detail about your opponents life, their voting record, their family history, every detail about the people around them, their friends, the people who support their campaign, all the database records, all the tax records, even gossip and rumors. Do you understand that these political types are among the most powerful? The closer you get to money and politics, the more power becomes involved, and the more money you deal with, the more power is involved, until you end up in a ruthless dirty world where the only rule of the day is to win.

The most evolved humans do not seek to rule. Such thoughts generally contribute to headaches; it's an evolutionary development.

You don't choose who guides evolution or who is evolved or who does not. The people with the guns control that. You have no gun, so you'll have to wait until they decide and go along with their decision.

And unless one thinks that's the right way for things to be, then, now, and in the future, I don't see why anyone would contribute to perpetuating such a situation.

Just because you recognize that things are they way they are, it does not mean that you are perpetuating it. You seriously don't have a clue how the world works, not at all. You have no clue about politics, you have no clue about the business world, I mean, there are some ruthless people at the top and at the bottom, there are ruthless people in this world who will walk all over you, who will pull you down into the pit, who will climb over you on the ladder and then kick you. You just don't understand that even if the world is not organized in the way you want it, that it is how it is, and it's not going to change just because you want to imagine something better.

Have you just explained the concept of a workplace shooting?
It's not about the gun, you can be bullied out of your job if people don't like you. You won't try to defend yourself or your job.

Seriously, I can make a Molotov if I decide I need to. But I don't keep them sitting around, waiting for the chance to use them.

No one said wait around geez, no one said that you should use it, no one said using guns is a good thing or that we endorse shootnig people, You are just being psycho now.

Likewise, I can get a gun if I need to, but I don't see any reason to keep one sitting around, waiting for the chance to use it. And yes, consent of the governed occurs on many levels obviously too subtle for your grasp. We can all rebel and either win or die if we choose, but most people choose not to.
You don't make sense anymore.

At this point, I should make the point that I have no idea why you're rambling on this tangent. At best, you're demonstrating what's creepy about gun advocates.

I'm not a GUN advocate! I'm a self defense advocate! Stop comparing me to the gun lobby, or gun advocates, you are trying to make me look like some sorta pro gun, hunting criminal type person, I've NEVER shot a gun. I do not own a firearm, I just recognize it's a right and it's a natural right. The right to self defense is the only right which allows you to own yourself, when you cannot defend yourself you've lost ownership of self. It disgusts me that you don't even care about yourself enough to at least consider that in some situations having a gun might be in your best interest.


Ah. In that case, your "poverty gun" is an inept metaphor. Absolutely useless.

It is? What is poverty, explain it.

And do you think this is right? To what end does such an arrangement work?
Poverty is a controlling force. If you work, you are working to increase your security, poverty decreases your security. It's shifting risk onto those who live in poverty. Don't you get it? The only way to lower your risks is to increase your cashflow.


How many people would you kill to get your way?

What the hell kinda question is this?! This is the most fucked up question I've ever been asked on this forum. I never advocate killing ANYONE to get my way. Stop trying to make me out to be some sorta psychopath. I'm not a killer.

I have yet to encounter a situation in my daily life where killing someone would accomplish something that could not be accomplished otherwise.

You seriously must be psycho, gun owners, the people who legally buy them for self defense, don't use them to get their way. If you are that kinda person you seriously don't need a gun and I'm glad you don't own one.

As the majority of the world has chosen to not stand up and die in order to make a statement about the way things are, certainly you realize the cooperative convention responsible for the way things are, or at least how you describe them.

You are talking like a terrorist, as if people have to stand up and die. Who in their right mind chooses to die? I guess people who arent rational enough to care about self defense, I don't know. It does not make any sense to me why anyone would want to choose to die. Most people just want to survive, and gun owners want to survive a little bit more than you do. Very few people actually are willing to die over anything. Most people just want to protect their families, not die for a cause, thats a bit ridiculous and I don't understand your morbid suicidal nature.




It's one method, and quite unstable.



You're not making much sense. But that's okay. After all, you can just shoot anyone who doesn't agree with you,
right?

I'm not a violent person. But you seem to be that way, because you don't understand the meaning of self defense. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with bullying. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with aggression, if you cannot understand the difference between defense and aggression, something is wrong with you. If you want to trust the criminals to protect you and not your friends and family, thats crazy in my opinion. Of course you should trust the police officers, but how many police officers are family members?


Isn't that how things are done in your corner of the Universe? Again, where is this community, so that I might avoid the hell out of it?
NO! That's not how it's done. You call me paranoid but you are the person who is afraid of guns, you are afraid of the word gun, you are afraid of anyone who is willing to protect themselves with a gun, you are just odd.


Life is. That's something you seem unable to grasp. Life, simply, is.

Thats life for you. Your life just is, your life is empty, but some of us have reasons to live and maybe thats why we don't want to die for a cause.

Try looking at humanity in a zoological context sometime. Really, it's quite enlightening. I still haven't finished learning from the resulting vista.



You're operating on presuppositions that you've stuck into this discussion. Go back and read through my four points of "gun control"; tell me what's wrong with them.

The justifications and arguments put forth by the gun-advocacy lobby, however, are as unrealistic as the argument you're pushing. I, personally, don't own a gun because I don't see the need. I, personally, do not believe that fear of death is the only thing keeping people in line.

It's not what keeps people lie you in line, it's what keeps aggressive people in line. It's what keeps criminals in line. Passive people such as yourself, you'll do as you are told.

Cooperative conventions are often the path of least resistance, a far more attractive option for those choosing to participate in "society" or "civilization" than killing whatever inconveniences us.

Yeah so now you want to call ever gun owner a killer? Why do you demonize gun owners but you feel empathy to criminals? What kinda person are you? Are you some new type of stealth criminal?



I'm an American. I'm a Washingtonian. I live in Snohomish County, Washington. I am a resident of an unincorporated portion of the city of Bothell. More than any of that, however, and beyond being part of various other collective identifications such as "male", "liberal", "theistic", &c., and beyond my specific identifications such as "Sisyphan Camusite", I am a human being. Humanity is the most fundamental collective I am a part of: the endeavor of the human species to survive. Rather than presupposing our extinction, I look to better our chances in the Universe.
So do I, but I also realize that people such as you and me do not make the decisions. People who are older, more powerful, highly ranked, these people make the decisions, and give the orders, etc. I'm smart enough to know that society is not run by people like you.

And that's all fine. I don't object to that. But scaring the populace and bristling with arms does nothing for the benefit of the collective in the long run. We've already been through this part: we're up to nuclear bombs.

And it's not going to end. Don't you get it? Not everyone thinks like you.

I'm not particularly anxious for the step up to a Death Star or, perhaps, a "singularity bomb”.
It might already be there, but even if it's not, it's not like any of us will be making the decisions as to whether or not these weapons get used.

If it gets to the point that petty ambitions justify the destruction of a solar system, or even a planet, then there is a good argument that extinction is what’s best for the species.
Destruction of the solar system? We don't have the energy to destroy the solar system, thats a bit ridiculous and stupid to even consider. We do have to worry about going extinct.

I’ll take your word for it.



The reality of weapons is not difficult to perceive. The surrender to weapons is perhaps a little more difficult to avoid. However, there is a point of departure for our current disagreement, and, frankly, I don’t understand how you reach that point. Rather than responding to my inquiry about the meaning of “well-regulated militia” or what rights are being stolen, you’re off on this tangent. Yes, there are barbarians out there who like to destroy and dominate for the hell of it. Society in general would have an easier time dealing with them if it wasn’t for the interference of people who need more and more of those barbarians in order to justify their own insecurities.

And again you blame the gun for criminals, but you want to have gun control laws which AID criminals more than anyone else. You make no sense!

So, what, do you need a fully-automatic rifle with a grenade launcher to protect yourself from the barbarians? Yes? Then, really, I need to know your community because I want to avoid both the barbarians in your community and the explosive response.Not everyone lives in a community, and there are criminals in every community including yours. It's just your sort seems to be more stealthy or perhaps smarter. I honestly don't know what world you grew up in. Havent you been bullied in school?


Take gang violence, for instance. On the one hand, there is a large irony afoot in the observation that the group that [/B]empowered the 1980s escalation of gang violence happens to have a political alliance with the people who want grenade launchers for home defense.

What the hell are you talking about?! Gang violence? The gangs get the guns easier if there is gun control. It's the gun controllers who created the situation by allowing the criminals to get the best weapons that even the police couldnt get. Thats what gun control did. You seem to think that if there were gun control all across the country that gangs wouldnt get their guns directly from the source, I mean seriously if they can get military grade weapons they arent getting this shit from a gun store. I don't know where they get it from and I cannot speculate, but whoever and however they get it, they get whatever the police and military get.

And, yes, I’m overstating the NRA--maybe--but most of that brand of crime is symptomatic of other issues. Certain things we fear will not go away if I have a gun. They’ll only go away when the ideas that breed them are overcome.

It's not ideas, it's traits. It's aggression. You keep thinking ever gun owner is aggressive. This is like thinking every dog with teeth bites.


That’s a great paragraph for a different discussion.

As to being rich ... I have a family that loves me, friends that I can trust, and a precious young daughter who regularly defies people’s expectations with her happiness, beauty, and humanity. So yes, I guess I’m rich.

If you’re referring to money, however ... I would encourage you to think again. I have no economic standing of my own in the world. My security in the world is the result of convention, trust, and cooperation.
SO you are a house pet. It's okay, I'm a student myself and living off others also, but at least I know that the world will not always be like this.

There is not a gun in existence that could provide me a better situation.

Tangential question: Do you believe that some people do not fear death?

You have a daughter, SHE fears your death. You fear hers. Defend her!

If so, I would ask you to realize that fear is, ultimately a choice. Empowering other choices may be difficult, and require inconvenient and dangerous approaches such as education--that is, gathering enough information to understand what we see--but it really is worth the risk. (And you’ll find, as the effort goes along, that it’s not really so dangerous, and it becomes less inconvenient with each degree of progress. The most common fear seems to be that it takes longer, and requires more effort than squeezing the trigger.)

I tried my best to respond to your arguements, but you are putting all your energy into demonizing me and all who think outside the box, or who value self defense as being monsters or barbarians.
You'd rather the crime lords have all the weapons on the planet.

I don't underatand your arguements, especially since you have a daughter, you should be more paranoid than me for her sake! If you don't protect her, she will have no one. I'm not saying you need a gun, I'm saying some people do need a gun and that gun control is simply control, and that control of guns leads to control of other things, like language, and thoughts, the physical body itself, etc.