how do we know how animals visualise the world around them?

That post about humans seeing the 'full visual range' while 'dogs don't' makes me laugh. Humans can't distinguish between a single 'yellow' frequency and a mixture of 'red' and 'green' frequencies (that's how your monitor produces yellow). We might detect one more 'dimension' of colour than dogs do but that's all :p
 
Humans can not see the full range of colors? We cannot see infrared or ultraviolet light as some organisms and insects can. According to the huge experiment below, "the colors green, yellow, and orange all look alike to dogs, but even this does not mean that they cannot distinguish the different shadings of these colors (darker or lighter) or tones (brighter or duller).

valich said:
"what may well be the world's foremost research program on comparative color vision....Over a series of some 4,000 trials, each dog was taught to "find the one that's different"....dogs do see color, but in a more limited range than that seen by normal humans, who see the rainbow of colors described by "VIBGYOR": Violet, Indigo, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red (plus hundreds of variations on these shades). Instead, dogs see "VIBYYYR" (Violet, Indigo, Blue, Yellow, Yellow, Yellow, and Red). The colors Green, Yellow, and Orange all look alike to dogs; but look different from Red and different from the various Blues and Purples. Dogs are very good at telling different shades of VIB apart. Finally, Blue-Green looks White to dogs.

The simple explanation for these differences in color vision is this. The retinas of normal humans have three (3) types of color receptors, called "cones". Each cone type is particularly sensitive to light of a narrow limit within the entire VIBGYOR range. That means that three different "cone lines" of communication run back to the visual part of the brain, which then compares the weight of the signals coming in from each of cone "line". Different weights produce a perception of different colors. In dogs (and in "green-blind" humans), there are only two (2) types of cones, so there is less basis for comparison by the brain, and thus the perceived color range is more limited. In sum, dog color vision is "color-limited", not "color-blind".
http://www.puplife.com/dogcaretips/howdogsseecolors.html

"Can Dogs See in Color?
It is not true that dogs are completely colorblind. While dogs do not have the same color vision as humans, they are able to tell yellow from blue. Like a human with red-green colorblindness, they are unable to tell the difference between red and green.
The reason for this limited range, in both the colorblind human and the dog, is that there are only two kinds of color receptors in the retinas of their eyes. While most humans have three kinds of color cells, with three different receptor molecules sensitive to blue, greenish-yellow, and red, dogs only have receptors for yellow and greenish-blue. Canine eyes also lack another human trait: the fovea, an area especially dense with detail-sensing cells. As a result, their detail vision is not as good as ours. But they make up for this by having much better night vision and greater sensitivity to movement."
http://www.discountpetmedicines.com/dog-health-blindness-color-dog.htm

The common belief that dogs are color blind is false. Dogs can see color, but it is not as vivid a color scheme as we see. They distinguish between blue, yellow, and gray, but probably do not see red and green. This is much like our own vision at night. Dogs' eyes have large pupils and a wide field of vision, making them really good at following moving objects. Dogs also see well in fairly low light."
http://www.i-pets.com/petfunt-dog.html

" Dogs can see in much dimmer light than humans. At twilight when you are having trouble seeing shades of color, they see as well as what you were seeing at noontime. Dogs can detect motion better than humans can. Dogs do not have the ability to focus as well on the shape of objects (their visual acuity is lower). An object a human can see clearly may appear to be blurred to a dog looking at it from the same distance. A rough estimate is that dogs have about 20/75 vision. This means that they can see at 20 feet what a normal human could see clearly at 75 feet. Dogs are said to have "dichromatic vision" -- they can see only part of the range of colors in the visual spectrum of light wavelengths. Humans have "trichomatic vision", meaning that they can see the whole spectrum. Dogs probably lack the ability to see the range of colors from green to red."
http://experts.about.com/q/700/3616856.htm

"Dogs can see in much dimmer light than humans. This is because the central portion of a dog's retina is composed primarily of rod cells that "see" in shades of gray while human central retinas have primarily cone cells that perceive color. The rods need much less light to function than cones do.
Dogs can see flickering light better than humans. The only significance to this appears to be that dogs may see television as a series of moving frames rather than as a continuous scene.

Dogs do not have the ability to focus as well on the shape of objects (their visual acuity is lower). An object a human can see clearly may appear to be blurred to a dog looking at it from the same distance. A rough estimate is that dogs have about 20/75 vision. This means that they can see at 20 feet what a normal human could see clearly at 75 feet.

Dogs are said to have dichromatic vision -- they can see only part of the range of colors in the visual spectrum of light wavelengths. Humans have trichomatic vision, meaning that they can see the whole sprectrum. Dogs probably lack the ability to see the range of colors from green to red. This means that they see in shades of yellow and blue primarily, if the theory is correct. Since it is impossible to ask them, it is not possible to say that they see these colors in the same hues that a human would. Whether or not the ability to see some color is important to dogs or not is hard to say.
http://www.vetinfo.com/dogsee.html

"To test if my dog was color-blind, I first trained him to choose blue over yellow. I chose blue and yellow because they appear very different when viewed in a grey scale. After my dog was trained to choose blue, I tested him to see if he could still choose blue over red because it is almostidentical to blue when viewed in a grey scale. My dog chose the blue over the red 72% of the time. Since my dog was able to chose the blue over the red 72% of the time, I concluded that my dog is not completely color-blind."
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...4/Projects/J1003.pdf+are+dog+colorblind&hl=en

"Dogs are [somewhat] red-green color blind. They see a brighter and less detailed world when compared to humans. Peripheral vision is better than humans (dogs see more of the world), but distance is not judged quite as well. Dogs excel at night vision and the detection of moving objects."
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/DrP4.htm

"Dogs appear to be better than people with peripheral vision, but their close-up vision does not seem as sharp as a human's. This is due in part to the placement of the eyes in the dog's skull. The dog's lateral eye placement allows better wide-angle vision but hinders depth perception and close-up viewing because there is minimal visual overlap (binocular convergence) between the two eyes. Hence, your dog can easily snag a ball moving sideways but may have trouble catching a ball tossed right at his nose.

The structure of the dog's retina helps explain other idiosyncrasies of canine vision. Abundant light-sensitive cells called rods in your dog's retina help it detect motion and see well in dim light - clear advantages for canines stalking prey at dusk or dawn or guarding territory against intruders. In contrast, the human retina is made up predominantly of cones - receptors that are better at detecting color and processing bright light. Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not completely colorblind for they do have cones in their retinas. But dogs can't distinguish the full spectrum of colors.

The tapetum lucidum is another ocular structure that gives canines enhanced ability to see in dim light. This thin, reflective tissue is part of the choroid layer, which lies behind the retina. The tapetum reflects light back through the retina, giving the retina a second opportunity to absorb light. You may be more familiar with the function of the tapetum lucidum than you think: it's what causes the bright reflection from a dog's eyes when car headlight shine on them at night."
http://www.cah.com/dr_library/eyedog.html
 
Valich,

Regarding the chinese language, I am the expert. I am going to reply to your posts. But first of all, can you see these chinese characters properly. "我們" - we/us?
If so, I can use a few of chinese characters to explain myself better than using pinyin.
How about creating a new thread to avoid hi-jacking this thread?

MB
 
By proclaimining yourself as the so-called "expert" that turns me off right there, as no expert would egotistically proclaim this. "我們" Women - and?

After living in China for twelve years I am relaying to others my factual experiences regarding the communication problems in using Chinese as compared to a romanized language such as English - it is not, and cannot be, as precise.

As science, technology, and knowledge evolves and we invent and discover new things, there are no more words in the Chinese language to describe them. They don't invent new characters. Therefore this is why they are forced to interject English words into scientific articles. This is true for Japanese, Korean, Thai, and any other "character" based language. Even in normal daily conversation with common people there, they often use the more common English word to communicate what they try to say.

I let the statistics I posted above on the number of Chinese characters in use compared to those in English and German speak for themselves. Even when I go to a hospital in China I often hear the doctors and nurses conversing amongst themselves interjecting English words in their conversations.

Pick up any Chinese dictionary and compare the number and amount of definitions given as compared to an English or German dictionary. And then any single character is followed by scores of compounded characters, but only to a limited amount. Do some research on this and you'll see how much of a difference there is between characgter based languages and romanized ones. There's a lot of scientific studies on this in the journals, but I am not wrong: it's a lot less precise.
 
Valich,

It wasn't meant to turn you off. If it did, my apology. :(
I just want a friendly discussion with you and all those interested in Chinese culture.

I was not egoistic when i claimed to be an expert (at least on this forum) because I am a Han chinese living in China (Hong Kong) raised in a traditional chinese family and chinese is my mother tongue.

MB
 
Well then you know how often Chinese use English to describe something in their normal conversations, because the Chinese word is not there. Did I say anything that you disagree with?

I love the Chinese AND especially the Chinese language. It sounds so beautiful. I wasn't trying to put it down in the least bit, but I don't see the need to start a new thread. Agreed? Aye? I wish I was born Chinese!
 
Valich,

This is my opinion from a native speaker point of view.

valich said:
I am not learning pinyin to learn Chinese, I already know Chinese, and I know how imprecise it can be because when conversing in Chinese we often have to use one word or sentence to make the otherone clear. But in the above context, of which we are talking about, we are referring to a single character.

First of all, the Chinese language is meaningless if you reduce it to individual characters 字. Chinese is a word 詞 based language. It only happens that some words are single character. Most chinese words are "compound words". The percentage is much higher in modern chinese. Only a minority of the words are single-character. Even some single-character words are made to become compound for sounding better or God-knows-why, not necessarily adding more information. E.g flower becomes Hua -> Huar , sky Tian -> TianKong.

It sounds like you must know some Chinese, then you must know that a single Chinese character almost always has many different meanings, and shades of meaning. This is why so many Chinese words are made up of two characters (compounded), and sometimes even three, four, and five characters (especially when denoting medicine and medical terms). I am talking about the individual Chinese characters, not the phonetic transliteration of those characters. Chinese scientists and writers today very often have to use some English words when they write an article in Chinese today because the Chinese language does not have a character that can be used to describe what they are referring to: therefore they can only use the English.

No, all technical and medical terms have its chinese version (eventually). Why people are using English because most new terms in science, technology and medicine most likely are first coined in English. Undoubtedly English is the de facto international language for acadamics. Papers are published in English. The problem is that it takes time for the newly coined terms to settle to a commonly agreed translation. The reason is sometimes political, sometimes is due to slight prononciation difference in the local dialects, so there may be different ways of calling the same term in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and other overseas chinese communities. However, I admit that it is often true that English version sounds less clumsy. But this doesn't mean that Chinese is imprecise.

If you are attending an International conference on Chinese medicine or Fung Shui, you will probably hear most of the terms in Chinese. This doesn't mean that English is imprecise.

This is one of the major problems with a character language, i.e., it's limitation. While in English we constantly create new words, you cannot do that with Chinese characters: the amount of characters are set. They do not create new Chinese characters as we can and do in English. The romanized German language especially consists of extremely long words, especially in science, because they just keep tacking on new suffixes and prefixes and adding on related words to the original to make it more and more precise. Even when I say my own name in Chinese, as is usual when speaking Chinese, I have to say "Wo xing Tang - Tang dia de Tang" (My name is
Tang, as in Tang Dynasty Tang).

You won't consider it a problem for not able to introduce a new letter to the Latin alphabet. Same here, I can't see any limitation to form new words with chinese.

We do create new characters based on a set of well-set rules. Yes, this is uncommon but it happens. For example, a new single character is used for each artifically created element. All of them have the root part 金 "metal".
The difficulty for creating new characters is that it is not possible to guess with 100% accuracy on the prononication. In the computer age, it adds another barrier of the need to modify the Unicode character set.

Another way is re-import of Japanese-made kanji 漢字, This practice is more commonly seen in Taiwan and Hong Kong.

Creating new chinese words (compound) are another issue. It is as common as the case in English and German. English is growing fast because of the information boom and also the assimilation of words from all other languages. German, well, new words are built just by concatenating different words. It is not unlike the case in Chinese compound words.

The name example is not good. This is because there is no way to guess the exact character used in a proper noun from the context. The same happens to other language. In English, you have to spell it out "I am stefan, s-t-e-f-a-n" "My name is Carie, C-a-r-i-e".

But aside from this spoken confusion of the Chinese language, as in any language in the world, the words - or individual characters in Chinese - change there meaning over time. This is true of any language and this is what we are talking about.

We don't have spoken confusion in a meaningful conversation.
Change of meaning over time. I agree, Chinese is as alive as English.

In martial arts they retain the ancient meanings of the original Chinese characters. "Qi" today means 1)"fresh air" or 2) "spirit, morale". And then in Chinese by compounding two characters the meaning gets more precise: "qihou" means "climate," "tianqi" means "weather," "qili" means "energy or strength," etc. I am only using the pinyin here because I don't know if the Chinese characters will post or not, but the meaning is the same. The same character for "qi" used today in modern times no longer has that same meaning as the same character was used by Lao Tzu.

"Qi" never means "weather". "TianQi" means "weather". It is not making the word more precise, rather they are different words refering to different concepts. It just happens that "Qi" is a single-character word meaning air.

BTW, you are also using "fresh" in front of "air" to make the meaning more precise, aren't you?

For your interest only, the chinese philosopher Gong Sun Long 's famous argument is that a "white horse" is not a "horse", you can google "白馬非馬論".

There are about 80,000 Chinese characters, usually only about 30,000 listed in the average Chinese dictionary, 5,000 to be considered fluent, and 3,000 to easily be able to read a Chinese newspaper. No new characters are ever created: only combined. Compare that to the 225,000 words listed in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and over 800,000 words in an average German dictionary.

This is not an apple to apple comparison. You should compare a Chinese Word dictionary, not a Chinese Character dictionary. The chinese word dictionary《漢語大詞典》contains 28,000 single-character words and 345,000 compound words.

" European scholars claimed the total tally to be about 80,000. This number, however, is thought to be exaggerated as the character count varies by dictionary and its comprehensiveness. For example, the Kangxi Dictionary lists about 40,000 characters, while the modern Zhonghua Zihai lists in excess of 80,000. One reason for the overwhelming number of characters is due to the existence of rarely-occurring variant and obscure characters (many of which are unused, even in Classical Chinese). It is usually said that about 3,000 characters are needed for basic literacy in Chinese (for example, to read a Chinese newspaper), and a well-educated person will know well in excess of 4,000 to 5,000 characters. source: Wikipidea.

Most Chinese dictionaries contain only 10-20,000 characters (Chinese dictionaries: not Chinese-English or English-Chinese Dictionaries). As is mentioned in the quote above most of the 80,000 are never used anymore because they're so antiquated. A preface in one Chinese dictionary that I have, published in Beijing, states that there are only 71,000 Chinese characters with 57,000 non-antiquated, the rest are permanently out of use.

True. Again characters, not words.

As science, technology, and knowledge evolves and we invent and discover new things, there are no more words in the Chinese language to describe them.

As said above, it's wrong.

They don't invent new characters.

Wrong again.

Therefore this is why they are forced to interject English words into scientific
articles.

True. English words are sometimes interjected, but for reasons I explained above.

This is true for Japanese, Korean, Thai, and any other "character" based language.

Japanese is not exactly a character based language. New japanese words in Katagana 片假名 are formed from foreign words everyday which remotely resemble the original words when spoken.

MB
 
Wow! What a long post! What part of it do you want me to focus on? This forum is about "How do we know how animals visualise the world around them?," not about the Chinese language.

Again, just to sum up the point, there are only abou 50,000 Chinese characters ever used nowadays, only 5,000 to be considered to be used to be fluent. Compare this to the 225,000 words in English and over 800,000 words in German.

I really think you should start a new thread.
 
Wow. A thread that veered off into TWO subjects I am familiar with: dogs and linguistics. Especially Chinese, although I don't speak it fluently and I can only read a couple of hundred kanji.

I estimated that dogs have 20/100 vision. Someone found a reliable source that says 20/75. Close enough. Those of you with glasses or contacts: People with 20/20 vision can read 8-point type comfortably. Print something off of your computer in 30-point type. Then see if you can read it without your corrective lenses. If you can just barely read it, THAT is how a dog sees.

Yes, their retinas are mostly rods instead of cones, so they can still see that 30-point type in what we would consider almost total darkness, and they can SEE something even smaller moving, but not be able to make out what it is. (E.g., maybe they could spot a block of 20-point type running by but they couldn't distinguish it from a musical score or a bar code.) That's why dogs will chase and attack almost anything that moves, whether it's your pet budgie or your foot tapping to music. They have no idea what it is but it must be something fun.

I read with interest your remarks on the Chinese language. I echo the bard's sentiments: the fundamental way that thoughts are expressed in Chinese is so much different from English that you're really in no position to draw any conclusions about it without at least a semester's study.

Many, perhaps a majority, of the individual syllables--I'm talking about the 50 homonyms of each one--can stand alone as words. They often carry some part of the meaning of that word with them when they form compound words, but the elements of a compound are NOT words. Dian hua means "telephone," not "electric speech," no matter how tempting it is to translate it that way and make Chinese seem like a pidgin language. Compound words at the opposite extreme make the point more dramatically: Dong xi means "thing," and no etymological sleight-of-hand can suggest that it's nonetheless really "east-west."

The average Chinese equivalent to the English construct of a "word" is a two-syllable compound. There are 1,600 distinct syllables in standard Mandarin--NOT counting homonyms--which means the language is capable of coining tens of thousands of two-syllable words that are as intuitively understandable as "electric speech," before they start seeming as inscrutable as "east-west." Science and other scholarly disciplines are as rife with four-syllable compounds as the Western languages, making possible the creation of a vocabulary of at least a million words without having to bother borrowing ours.

"Western" medicine is more advanced in the West (duh, did I just say that) so of course the terminology is more advanced in English. Chinese doctors are well educated and most have probably studied English so they can read English journals and converse with anglophonic colleagues. So they throw around English words, just as we throw around Chinese or Hindi words when discussing "Eastern" medicine like acupuncture or yoga.

But this word-borrowing stops abruptly when you come down out of the stratosphere of the elite into the world of the Chinese with an average or even modestly above average education. The phonetics of Chinese are so VASTLY different from English that the average Chinese person simply can't pronounce most English words recognizably.

We all giggled the first time we heard a person from France say "I like zees wine" or a person from Mexico say "I es-peak Es-panish." That's nothing compared to what a person from Si Chuan would do with a word like "vascular," "thorax," or "sclerosis."

There are no consonant clusters in Chinese like SCL or X (ks). There is no V or TH sound. The only consonant a syllable can ever end in is N or NG. Z and R are vowels.

From the lips of the man-in-the-street of Bei Jing, those three words come out something like "wa-sz-kyu-la," "tou-la-ke-sz," and "sz-ke-lei-lou-shi-sz." (No I'm not using proper Pin-Yin romanization, I'm mixing it with Yale to make my point more clearly to the uninitiated.)

It's practically impossible for Chinese to borrow words from Indo-European languages. Doctors with their 20-25 years of education may throw English words around, but you won't hear chemical engineers, computer programmers, or sculptors doing it, much less the average worker.

Besides, what do they need with our words. Theirs are shorter. Our five-syllable "computer program" is dian nao cheng xu in Chinese.
 
Having 20/20 vision is not the same as reading 20 point font on your computer. 20/20 refers to the distance in which you can see clearly: 20 feet away.

"A visual acuity of 20/20 means that if you and a "normal" person with good eyesight both stand 20 feet away from an object, you would see the same thing. If you have a visual acuity of 20/40 (6/12), then if you stood 20 feet away from an object and the "normal" person stood 40 feet away, you would both see the same thing: this suggests that you have worse eyesight than normal. It is possible to have vision superior to 20/20: the maximum acuity of the human eye without visual aids (such as binoculars) is generally thought to be around 20/15 (6/4.5). Wikipedia.

Can you give me any sources about your above comments on dog vision? Really, I am not asking this to prove any point but as you can see from my above postings I have researched this a lot and do have a personal interest in it. I try to keep up with new scientific research so if there's something that I don't know - new research - I'd really like to know about it.

I am considered fluent in Chinese, yet after sitting in on some all-Chinese lectures, I am relating the fact that they often interject English or other romanized words because there is no equivalent in the Chinese: this has been my experience after living there at academic institutions for twelve years.

"But this word-borrowing stops abruptly when you come down out of the stratosphere of the elite into the world of the Chinese with an average or even modestly above average education."

Not always. Go to a CD-store and ask to buy a CD from a famous English or European musician and the word used is a spoken-broken version of English: not a translation into Chinese. For example they call Michael Jackson: "Jak-i-son," etc.

"It's practically impossible for Chinese to borrow words from Indo-European languages. Doctors with their 20-25 years of education may throw English words around, but you won't hear chemical engineers, computer programmers, or sculptors doing it, much less the average worker."

No. This is just not true. They often do, and they have to. with only 50,000 characters to use in Chinese and 800,000 in German or other English and European languages, when you attend a scientific lecture you often hear interjected non-Chinese romanized words: been there, done (heard) that.

For example, how do you translate "Chukanov Quantum Energy LLC high-energy electron accelerator" into Chinese? Try finding ANY dictionary in China the defines what Tylenol is? And any of these generic terms or company names for a commonly used word for medicine, such as Tagamet or Pepcid A-C, has no Chinese equivalent. So the only way to ask for it is to refer to the scientific name. This is not just a fact in Chinese, but worldwide.

When referring to any organism this is why we use scientific notation (genus-species) so that it can be mutually communicated throughout the world. These genus-species notation are not what we here use to call an animal, i.e., we call a dog a dog, not a "canidae familiaris." But the later is used throughout the world amongst the scientific community - including doctors with their 10 years of education and 20-25 years of experience to make it mutually understandable.

You cannot translate all the words in a romanized language into Chinese because the Chinese language is finite. It is stagnant and limited: romanization is not. That's why romanized languages can be so creative, yet Chinese IS more beautiful.
 
melodicbard said:
No, all technical and medical terms have its chinese version (eventually). Why people are using English because most new terms in science, technology and medicine most likely are first coined in English. Undoubtedly English is the de facto international language for acadamics. Papers are published in English. The problem is that it takes time for the newly coined terms to settle to a commonly agreed translation. The reason is sometimes political, sometimes is due to slight prononciation difference in the local dialects, so there may be different ways of calling the same term in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and other overseas chinese communities. However, I admit that it is often true that English version sounds less clumsy. But this doesn't mean that Chinese is imprecise.
Only if they are "eventually" commonly used by the masses of people. Then they NEED to find a Chinese character for it, right?

melodicbard said:
If you are attending an International conference on Chinese medicine or Fung Shui, you will probably hear most of the terms in Chinese. This doesn't mean that English is imprecise.
I definitely agree, and never disagreed: but "most," not all.

melodicbard said:
Another way is re-import of Japanese-made kanji 漢字, This practice is more commonly seen in Taiwan and Hong Kong.
Japan has borrowed more Chinese characters from China then China will ever borrow from Japan. Isn't this why Japan developed kanji? Because of the limitations with only using Chinese? I don't know?

melodicbard said:
"Qi" never means "weather". "TianQi" means "weather". It is not making the word more precise, rather they are different words refering to different concepts. It just happens that "Qi" is a single-character word meaning air.
I think this is what I said above, no?

melodicbard said:
You should compare a Chinese Word dictionary, not a Chinese Character dictionary. The chinese word dictionary《漢語大詞典》contains 28,000 single-character words and 345,000 compound words.
345,000 compond words is a lot less than 800,000 German words. Do you have this dictionary? I am not doubting that it has that many compound words but that's far more than any Chinese word dictionary that I have and I like to know where I can buy it. Could you tell me where it is published, if it has an different English title, or if it has an ISBN number? Thanks.
 
Oh come on now. China has been a civilization for several thousand years. Teutonic people didn't start migrating down out of Scandinavia and becoming Germanic tribes until about 2,500 years ago, and they were a bunch of nomads speaking a cacophony of dialects until the middle of the First Millennium A.D. They didn't even have civilization or a written language until most of those Chinese words had already been coined and written down.

German is a rich language but it does not have 800,000 words. Not unless you count every inflected form of every noun, verb, and adjective and then count every potential compound word that could be stuck together and be understandable. That's the way a computer spell-checker would count words, not a human lexicographer.

Chinese writers transcribe foreign names and words the way people pronounce them. There are dozens of ways to write the syllables Jia Ke San, but no way to write "Jack" because it's not one of Mandarin's 400 sounds.

"Tylenol" is a trademark and even "acetominaphen" is a nonsense word that some chemist made up 125 years ago. Naturally there are no "translations" of those words into Chinese or any other languages. Even Indo-European languages like Spanish just put an A on the end and fake it. But find the proper chemical name for the molecular formula and there will be a Chinese way of saying it just like there is for phenolphthalene or carbon tetrachloride.
 
Yes, German is an inflected language, but disregarding the inflections there are still over 800,000 words in the German language. So with the six different inflections, I guess there are about 48,000,000 words! This is one reason why German scientists were so superior to any country up until WWII. They were able to scientifically describe their progresses much more precisely by adding on prefixes, suffixes, and compounded words: English is behind German in this aspect.

"Like English, German allows arbitrarily long compounds, but these are rare. (See also English compounds.) The longest official German word is Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz.
Spource: Wikipedia

Chinese does not allow such arbitrarily long compounds. It's not a law or a rule, but you'll never find a compounded Chinese word even nearly as long as this!

Also, I was wrong about Chinese not having a translation for Tylenol. Whenever I bought Tylenol at a drug store I remember now that the box had a front side in English and a back side in Chinese. But I never payed any attention to how Tylenol translated their brand name into Chinese characters. Acetaminophen, being a standardized pharmeceutical chemical name, is also translated in chinese (解熱鎮痛薬).
 
valich said:
Only if they are "eventually" commonly used by the masses of people. Then they NEED to find a Chinese character for it, right?

Believe me, the masses won't know the english terms even as simple as AIDS and SARS. It's another matter for academics.
Well, they are only acronyms more like words. They both got their chinese terms mimicking english pronunciations. AIDS is Ai-Zi "艾滋病" in China and "愛滋病" in Hong Kong. SARS is "沙士" Sha-Shi. The common people only use the chinese terms.

Japan has borrowed more Chinese characters from China then China will ever borrow from Japan. Isn't this why Japan developed kanji? Because of the limitations with only using Chinese? I don't know?

Japanese can be written down using entirely the japanese hiragana and katakana alphabet. They use chinese characters and self-made kanjis for better readability and less ambiguity.
There were campaigns in Japan to eliminate the use of chinese characters and also campaigns to romanize the entire Japanese language after WWII. Both failed because of the resulting ambiguity.

345,000 compond words is a lot less than 800,000 German words. Do you have this dictionary? I am not doubting that it has that many compound words but that's far more than any Chinese word dictionary that I have and I like to know where I can buy it. Could you tell me where it is published, if it has an different English title, or if it has an ISBN number? Thanks.

I know, German got 800,000 words. So be it. Hey, don't argue just for the sake of arguing.

I don't have that dictionary. I have googled them for you.

Standard, 12 Volumes+Index volume, 301 USD, ISBN 7543200112
http://www.cp1897.com.hk/BookInfo?BookId=7543200112&SectionId=4&AllId=
CD Version 2.0, 128 USD, ISBN 9620702557
http://www.cp1897.com.hk/BookInfo?BookId=9620702557&SectionId=4&AllId=
Concise Edition, 22 volumes, 230 USD, ISBN 7543200163
http://www.cp1897.com.hk/BookInfo?BookId=7543200163&SectionId=10


Fraggle Rocker,

Your "Telephone" example is excellent. Thank you.

Fraggle Rocker said:
Even Indo-European languages like Spanish just put an A on the end and fake it. But find the proper chemical name for the molecular formula and there will be a Chinese way of saying it just like there is for phenolphthalene or carbon tetrachloride.

LOL, faking. BTW, how do they assign the gender, why not adding an 'o' to create a masculine word?

FYI:

Jack is a common name and is translated as Ji-ke "積克".

Phenolphthalein is Fen-Tai 酚 *酉太* one word, lol, this is a new character not in the unicode set.
Carbon Tetrachloride is 四氯化碳.

The buzzword "Tamiflu" is Te-min-fu "特敏福".

MB
 
I've lived in China for twelve years within the compounds of academic institutions and am just relaying my experiences. I don't disagree with you.
 
Back
Top