how do we know how animals visualise the world around them?

Some animals, lizards, cuttlefishes, can use camourfage and change their colour to blend in with their surroundings by arranging some pigments on their skin.
Without a mirror, how do they know their colors (on their "face") match or not? Interesting.
 
EmptyForceOfChi said:
yes this is called shen, thats why other animals are intelligent but cannot have actual awareness of there own existance, humans have highest shen levels, but im not sure about animals not having a minds eye, this must alsoo mean that they do not have visual dreams in there minds eye also?
Are you using Chinese here? In Chinese, shen "Shen1" means "look" or "one's natural expression." "Shen2" means "god," "deirty," "spirit," "mind," "expression," "look." But in English there is no such word. You must say what language you are using if you expect people to understand.
 
melodicbard said:
Some animals, lizards, cuttlefishes, can use camourfage and change their colour to blend in with their surroundings by arranging some pigments on their skin. Without a mirror, how do they know their colors (on their "face") match or not? Interesting.
Wow! That is really a great point! How do they know?

We have a thread on "Biology and Genetics" called "sensory evolution" in which I listed the main receptors as:
- Chemoreceptors respond to chemical signals
- Mechanoreceptors respond to touch or pressure
- Thermoreceptors respond to heat
- Photoreceptor cells respond to light
- Baroreceptor cells respond to pressure
- Osmoreceptor cells respond to the level of fluids (in the hypothalamus)
- Proprioreceptor cells respond to motion, position or balance

So they must use their visual sense to activate their chemoreceptors that in turn change their color. But are they "conscious" that they know to do this???
 
honestly, the first time i ever saw a mirror i bet it took me a while to realise it was ME there. I'd expect any animal to be confused at a mirror until it is able to learn itself what it is looking at.
 
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they do dream. i have seen dogs do Rapid Eye Movement, and twitch their muscles, and make whimpering and growling noises etc....smilarly to humans revealing they are dreaming

it is dangerous to pretend we KNOw what animal are. didn't Rene Descartes do exaclty this witin the limitatins of his own understanding. he concluded that animals were mere automata and tus tis ile notion justified to himself that mutilating animals whilst still alive was fine, and tat te animals howls and awful screams of agony were just te empty cries of a machine!

W MUSt reealize that our logic isn't thebe all and end all. that there are deeper unfathomable ways of understanding.....for example......science doesn't understand consciousness, its OWN. so how then can it understand 'animal consciousness'....??
 
I wonder if there is any research on that, i.e., if dogs dream. My dog does the same thing. Sometimes she even starts running in place while asleep! That scares me a bit cuz my last dog did the same right before a seizure, so I start petting her and say "Hey Kody, what's up? Good girl."
 
valich said:
Are you using Chinese here? In Chinese, shen "Shen1" means "look" or "one's natural expression." "Shen2" means "god," "deirty," "spirit," "mind," "expression," "look." But in English there is no such word. You must say what language you are using if you expect people to understand.


i have a full grasp of the chinse interpritations, i have been studying Qigong Taiji and Shaolin Gong fu for over 17 years, Shen means Spirit, a spirit guides the awareness, the stronger the shen, the higher the awareness, the 3 fundemental energies Qi Shen and Jing,


peace.
 
valich said:
I wonder if there is any research on that, i.e., if dogs dream. My dog does the same thing. Sometimes she even starts running in place while asleep! That scares me a bit cuz my last dog did the same right before a seizure, so I start petting her and say "Hey Kody, what's up? Good girl."



yes dogs do dream if there eyes flicker rapidly from left to right this means they are in R,E,M state wich indicates deep sleep with visuals,


peace
 
I'd like to read some scientific studies on this if you know of any as journal articles are always more precise. No doubt to me that dogs must drean,or atleast have REM sleep. Dogs sleep a lot more than humans, but only does my dog twitch and run in place during the middle of the night: must be REM.

In Chinese, many words are made up of two words. Yeah, "shen" means spirit and "qi" means the force or way in the universe. Lao Tazu in the "Tao De Qing" (Treatise of the Tao and the Way) always referrs to "Qi" as the way of Nature. But I these definitions are carried over from ancient times - and that's good!

There are four tones in the Chinese language and the are important when defining a word; nevertheless, the only "QiShen" that I can find in my dictionary means "get up" or "rise to one's feet." "Qi" and "Shen" probably are a combination of the original two words together. And that's good! Whay should they change, right ? But today if you ask someone in China what "qi" means, they'll tell you the "air" around you or the "air you breath in": which is not that far off, right?

"Sheng2qi4" means "life or vitality" but now refers to "anger" in a person. Today, if you say a person is or has "shenqi," that means that they're very angry at something. Words change. Jin2 means "strength or energy." But there are many definitions of jing - about twenty different characters for the word jing. But jing4 means "strong, powerful, sturdy, formidable opponent." Not sure if this is the same "jing" or not? But these are the recent definitions of the words and as I said before, any ancient martial arts' form would use the original meanings.

I guess, as far as I know, I can without a doubt say that "Qi" refers to the subtle underlying force in Nature that you can tap into to know the way and use it accordingly. This is what I think I learned after reading Lao Tzu a dozen times?
 
valich said:
Are you using Chinese here? In Chinese, shen "Shen1" means "look" or "one's natural expression." "Shen2" means "god," "deity," "spirit," "mind," "expression," "look." But in English there is no such word. You must say what language you are using if you expect people to understand.
Aren't you on the wrong post? Are you still stalking me?

"Shen" has about twenty definitions but in the context that we are talking about, your ancient definition is irrelevant - or do you propose we list all the current twenty and also the fifty ancient definitions to confuse the subject?

I am fluent in Chinese you know: Suoyi, ruguo ni yau shou guoyi, women keyi?

There are four tones in the Chinese language and I don't think you are specifying your tones correctly. "Shen1" or "shen1ti3" means body. "Shen2" is no longer colloquially used to mean "god" - I have NEVER heard it used in this way, so it must be rarely used today, if at all (ancient Chinese). In modern colloquial conversation "Shang2di4" means "god." In ancient Chinese I believe it was formerly used in a superstituos aspect or a majic-power to attribute to why a person passed away.
 
Pardon my above first line, I'm confusing you with another joker who stalks whatever wherever I post, even though he never posts on the thread. Really is obnoxious. always tries to cut me down in any way he can. Geez! Sorry.

If you're using a good dictionary, try to see how they use the word in an example sentence. Also, I find it better to look up the Chinese pinyin phonetic word first rather than looking up the translation by looking up the English word: the translation from English to Chinese is always much shorter and precise than the otherway around. From Chinese to English you can see how the word is combined with other words to form related compounded meanings. Sometimes when I look up the English word first, the correct Chinese definition isn't even there.
 
valich said:
valich said:
Are you using Chinese here? In Chinese, shen "Shen1" means "look" or "one's natural expression." "Shen2" means "god," "deity," "spirit," "mind," "expression," "look." But in English there is no such word. You must say what language you are using if you expect people to understand.

Aren't you on the wrong post? Are you still stalking me?

"Shen" has about twenty definitions but in the context that we are talking about, your ancient definition is irrelevant - or do you propose we list all the current twenty and also the fifty ancient definitions to confuse the subject?

I am fluent in Chinese you know: Suoyi, ruguo ni yau shou guoyi, women keyi?

There are four tones in the Chinese language and I don't think you are specifying your tones correctly. "Shen1" or "shen1ti3" means body. "Shen2" is no longer colloquially used to mean "god" - I have NEVER heard it used in this way, so it must be rarely used today, if at all (ancient Chinese). In modern colloquial conversation "Shang2di4" means "god." In ancient Chinese I believe it was formerly used in a superstituos aspect or a majic-power to attribute to why a person passed away.

Ah ha!
Do we finally have the proof that Valich is a troll?
You forgot to change your clothes, Valich.
So. Who did you think you were going to be?
Chi?
Interesting.
It fits.
I wonder who you really are?
 
I go from one post to another if I find it interesting and listen and contribute, as I am doing so right now.

To all the above: this is one of the jokers that I am talking about who ruins all the educational politely worded threads for the rest of us. Check all the postings above. Has he ever posted? No!

Invert - and you are inverted - you are, by definition, being a stalking "troll." You are the "troll," not me. Lay off and GET A LIFE!
 
Just observing the clues, Valich.
That's all.
And. No need to look. I haven't posted in this thread prior to my above post.

However, I've come to the conclusion that you weren't thinking that you were logged in as Chi. If you had been then you'd post in all lowercase and no punctuation.

So. I guess maybe you were just being a weirdo and having some weird freakout. I mean, you'd already responded several times on the subject of shen and whatnot. And then all of a sudden you respond to yourself in an antagonistic manner...

So. Conclusive evidence of you being a troll is still forthcoming. I'm relatively certain you are. (By the way, I'm sure you'll 'misunderstand' but by troll I mean that you're a sock puppet playing games.)

Other clues I've picked up are when you use the term 'we'.

Anyway.
The proof isn't yet.
Maybe next time.
 
Yes, but we're talking about sensory perception in terms of evolution among species. Shen2 in Chinese has a very imprecise ambiquous definition. It can mean "body," "god," "deity," "spirit," "mind," "expression," "look,"; "shenling" - "dieties"; "shenming" - "Gods, deities, divinities"; "shenqi" - "expression, air"; "shengsheng" - "sacred, holy."

The Chinese language is extremely inprecise and that is why in scientific studies they always use Western terminologies (genus-species): even in China! Every country in the world uses the Western terminologies to describe the genus-species of an organism when they write anything to be published or to talk about that organism in the global scientific community.

The Chinese language is extremely imprecise and should not be used in trying to explain biology. It would be subjected to hundreds of different interpretations leading to an endless confusion of the facts.
 
valich said:
The Chinese language is extremely imprecise and should not be used in trying to explain biology. It would be subjected to hundreds of different interpretations leading to an endless confusion of the facts.

Sorry, but I have to disagree.
This is so because you are using pinyin to learn the language. The romanized chinese is very imprecise. But in either oral (with intonation) or written form (with chinese characters), it is very precise.

The other way round, using English to explain Chinese medicine and philosophy concept is also very imprecise.
 
I am not learning pinyin to learn Chinese, I already know Chinese, and I know how imprecise it can be because when conversing in Chinese we often have to use one word or sentence to make the otherone clear. But in the above context, of which we are talking about, we are referring to a single character.

It sounds like you must know some Chinese, then you must know that a single Chinese character almost always has many different meanings, and shades of meaning. This is why so many Chinese words are made up of two characters (compounded), and sometimes even three, four, and five characters (especially when denoting medicine and medical terms). I am talking about the individual Chinese characters, not the phonetic transliteration of those characters. Chinese scientists and writers today very often have to use some English words when they write an article in Chinese today because the Chinese language does not have a character that can be used to describe what they are referring to: therefore they can only use the English.

This is one of the major problems with a character language, i.e., it's limitation. While in English we constantly create new words, you cannot do that with Chinese characters: the amount of characters are set. They do not create new Chinese characters as we can and do in English. The romanized German language especially consists of extremely long words, especially in science, because they just keep tacking on new suffixes and prefixes and adding on related words to the original to make it more and more precise. Even when I say my own name in Chinese, as is usual when speaking Chinese, I have to say "Wo xing Tang - Tang dia de Tang" (My name is Tang, as in Tang Dynasty Tang).

But aside from this spoken confusion of the Chinese language, as in any language in the world, the words - or individual characters in Chinese - change there meaning over time. This is true of any language and this is what we are talking about.

In martial arts they retain the ancient meanings of the original Chinese characters. "Qi" today means 1)"fresh air" or 2) "spirit, morale". And then in Chinese by compounding two characters the meaning gets more precise: "qihou" means "climate," "tianqi" means "weather," "qili" means "energy or strength," etc. I am only using the pinyin here because I don't know if the Chinese characters will post or not, but the meaning is the same. The same character for "qi" used today in modern times no longer has that same meaning as the same character was used by Lao Tzu.

There are about 80,000 Chinese characters, usually only about 30,000 listed in the average Chinese dictionary, 5,000 to be considered fluent, and 3,000 to easily be able to read a Chinese newspaper. No new characters are ever created: only combined. Compare that to the 225,000 words listed in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and over 800,000 words in an average German dictionary.
 
" European scholars claimed the total tally to be about 80,000. This number, however, is thought to be exaggerated as the character count varies by dictionary and its comprehensiveness. For example, the Kangxi Dictionary lists about 40,000 characters, while the modern Zhonghua Zihai lists in excess of 80,000. One reason for the overwhelming number of characters is due to the existence of rarely-occurring variant and obscure characters (many of which are unused, even in Classical Chinese). It is usually said that about 3,000 characters are needed for basic literacy in Chinese (for example, to read a Chinese newspaper), and a well-educated person will know well in excess of 4,000 to 5,000 characters. source: Wikipidea.

Most Chinese dictionaries contain only 10-20,000 characters (Chinese dictionaries: not Chinese-English or English-Chinese Dictionaries). As is mentioned in the quote above most of the 80,000 are never used anymore because they're so antiquated. A preface in one Chinese dictionary that I have, published in Beijing, states that there are only 71,000 Chinese characters with 57,000 non-antiquated, the rest are permanently out of use.
 
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